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Value of: Wayne Simmonds

Gaylord Q Tinkledink

Gaylord Q Tinkledink

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Apr 29, 2018
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I wonder if Simmonds could fix Montreal's atrocious powerplay.

They shouldn't be spending on ufas, but I've always liked him and wonder if anyone can fix that monstrosity.
 
BrindamoursNose

BrindamoursNose

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Oct 14, 2008
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Lunatik said:
I'm not saying Simmonds won't get a 2nd but I think most teams have a bunch of guys ahead of him. Zuccarello, Hayes, Panarin (if available), Stone and Nyquist are all clearly better and are UFAs. Then guys like Staal, Dzingel and Hoffman are possibly available too and as good or better than Simmonds. That's before you factor in that non-UFA guys like Kreider, Pageau and Toffoli could be had too. Suddenly Simmonds could be as low as 10 on some lists.

Also I'm not sure comparing guys like Boyle and Hagelin are apt because their primary roles will he defensive and PKing
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If he gets traded for solely picks, Simmonds is ABSOLUTELY getting a 2nd at minimum.

All of the guys you mentioned don't have the sandpaper Simmonds has (which GMs go wild for) and he's been a heck of a point producer for a long time (except of course the last year and some change). I'm not saying he should be ahead of most of those guys, but he certainly will be in many GMs' minds.
 

CapnZin

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Lunatik said:
I'm not saying Simmonds won't get a 2nd but I think most teams have a bunch of guys ahead of him. Zuccarello, Hayes, Panarin (if available), Stone and Nyquist are all clearly better and are UFAs. Then guys like Staal, Dzingel and Hoffman are possibly available too and as good or better than Simmonds. That's before you factor in that non-UFA guys like Kreider, Pageau and Toffoli could be had too. Suddenly Simmonds could be as low as 10 on some lists.

Also I'm not sure comparing guys like Boyle and Hagelin are apt because their primary roles will he defensive and PKing
Click to expand...
It may just be me, but I would take Simmonds over Nyquist. Better goal scorer and usually have the same assists. Nyquist career year is, generally speaking, an outlier. Some team could pay high for it, but he hasn’t produced similar to this since 2014-2015. Could be the Larkin effect. Simmonds most TOI is spent with a top production of 23 points. I find it to be pretty crazy how he’s near 20 goals with the usage and just general atrocious play for this team. No one is scoring unless it’s the top line and that’s the reason for his assists being down.

GMs overpay for grit, leadership, and experience- all qualities Simmonds has over those candidate. Leadership may be a fight to the top for Simmer and Zuccarello. Your argument of niche not being a great attribute for the argument, but NSH is a top contender for the cup in the West and they have one of the worst PP in the league. He only has 8 or 9 points on the PP and that’s actually pretty good considering how bad the Flyers have been on the PP. They even changed his role on it too.

Again, I’m not saying he’s going to get a huge return, but looking st what makes someone “valuable” is what he has. People always use the arguments of “look at how many goals” “he has X,Y, and Z”, but then when it’s used as a value measure for your team paying the price... it’s suddenly not right. I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing at all, but I’ve seen someone on here do this.

There will be a team willing to pay for him. A 2nd + NHL player is far from the ceiling. I do think that at the most, PHI could pry a 1st + project prospect with a small add to Simmer or maybe 50% retention.

Also, someone noted a deep draft... of a team is making a cup run, why would they be looking at the draft? That’s always confused me. You expend assets to get you to the cup... not help you for the draft. That’s why we’re fans and not GMs. A lot of flyers fans on the board have used the notion “2 years from 2 years” meaning with our GMs style, in 2 years we will be 2 years away from being competitive for the cup. Holding assets to for projected player is not a great idea.... just a thought of mine.
 

HoseEmDown

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Mar 25, 2012
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BrindamoursNose said:
If he gets traded for solely picks, Simmonds is ABSOLUTELY getting a 2nd at minimum.

All of the guys you mentioned don't have the sandpaper Simmonds has (which GMs go wild for) and he's been a heck of a point producer for a long time (except of course the last year and some change). I'm not saying he should be ahead of most of those guys, but he certainly will be in many GMs' minds.
Click to expand...

He's also a team worst -20 this year, he had the worst plus minus last year and he's been a minus player every season he's been in Philly. So he's a huge liability defensively. He also hasn't scored a goal the last two playoffs. He isn't anything close to what he was, he's slow in a fast league, even with his sandpaper he isn't hitting at that high a rate and he has 1 fight this year. The dude is a shell oof himself, I hope Tampa doesn't go after this guy.
 
Lunatik

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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CapnZin said:
It may just be me, but I would take Simmonds over Nyquist. Better goal scorer and usually have the same assists. Nyquist career year is, generally speaking, an outlier. Some team could pay high for it, but he hasn’t produced similar to this since 2014-2015. Could be the Larkin effect. Simmonds most TOI is spent with a top production of 23 points. I find it to be pretty crazy how he’s near 20 goals with the usage and just general atrocious play for this team. No one is scoring unless it’s the top line and that’s the reason for his assists being down.

GMs overpay for grit, leadership, and experience- all qualities Simmonds has over those candidate. Leadership may be a fight to the top for Simmer and Zuccarello. Your argument of niche not being a great attribute for the argument, but NSH is a top contender for the cup in the West and they have one of the worst PP in the league. He only has 8 or 9 points on the PP and that’s actually pretty good considering how bad the Flyers have been on the PP. They even changed his role on it too.

Again, I’m not saying he’s going to get a huge return, but looking st what makes someone “valuable” is what he has. People always use the arguments of “look at how many goals” “he has X,Y, and Z”, but then when it’s used as a value measure for your team paying the price... it’s suddenly not right. I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing at all, but I’ve seen someone on here do this.

There will be a team willing to pay for him. A 2nd + NHL player is far from the ceiling. I do think that at the most, PHI could pry a 1st + project prospect with a small add to Simmer or maybe 50% retention.

Also, someone noted a deep draft... of a team is making a cup run, why would they be looking at the draft? That’s always confused me. You expend assets to get you to the cup... not help you for the draft. That’s why we’re fans and not GMs. A lot of flyers fans on the board have used the notion “2 years from 2 years” meaning with our GMs style, in 2 years we will be 2 years away from being competitive for the cup. Holding assets to for projected player is not a great idea.... just a thought of mine.
Click to expand...
Simmonds has 1 more goal than Nyquist on a far better offensive team and doesn't have the playmaking ability Nyquist does. Not to mention Nyquist is actually a capable defensive player.

How can you defend SImmonds PP numbers? He's literally a goal scorer, or so I keep getting told. He is part of the problem with Philly's PP.

You claim he won't get a huge return, then say you wouldn't be shocked to see him get a 1st+ :huh:

I have been an advocate for the Flames trying to get Simmonds for years, but he is declining, he is a liability defensively and quite frankly he has the potential to be the biggest deadline bust if someone overpays for him.
 

CapnZin

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Lunatik said:
Simmonds has 1 more goal than Nyquist on a far better offensive team and doesn't have the playmaking ability Nyquist does. Not to mention Nyquist is actually a capable defensive player.

How can you defend SImmonds PP numbers? He's literally a goal scorer, or so I keep getting told. He is part of the problem with Philly's PP.

You claim he won't get a huge return, then say you wouldn't be shocked to see him get a 1st+ :huh:

I have been an advocate for the Flames trying to get Simmonds for years, but he is declining, he is a liability defensively and quite frankly he has the potential to be the biggest deadline bust if someone overpays for him.
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While the flyers may be scoring more, Simmonds doesn’t play with Couturier, Giroux, or Voracek.

I’m not disagreeing with the assertion that he could be a bust down the line if someone pays for him and signs him long term. However, he is a rental and teams pay for rentals to help them with the Stanley cup. Simmonds is a perfect match for that type of sentiment. Teams do pay for that. The 2nd + NHL player is the same value of a 1st + project prospect. Neither is over the top.

Since you’re a flames fan, I think some of these would be fair:

PHI: Wayne Simmonds (50%)

CGY: 2019 2nd + Curtis Lazar + 2019 5th*

Cond.—> If Wayne Simmonds resigns... add a 2020 5th too.

—————

PHI: Wayne Simmonds (50%) + 2019 4th

CGY: 2019 1st + Martin Pospisil

Gaudreau - Monahan - Tkachuk
Frolik - Backlund - Lindholm
Bennett - Jankowski - Simmonds
Mangiapane - Ryan - Czarnik

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
JVR/Lindblom - Patrick - Voracek
JVR/Lindblom - Laughton - Raffl
Lazar - Varone - Bailey/NAK

I don’t think that’s a high ask for a player like Simmonds. This is what I mean by the ask for Simmonds. A team looking to make noise in the playoffs would be fools to say no to either trade. Simmonds doesn’t pan out in the Flyers picture because of young players needing resigning (Provorov, Sanheim, Patrick, Konecny, and so on) whole we have players like Frost, NAK, and possibly Rubtsov/Ratcliffe/Allison/Farabee making noise for spots soon.
 
Lunatik

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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CapnZin said:
While the flyers may be scoring more, Simmonds doesn’t play with Couturier, Giroux, or Voracek.

I’m not disagreeing with the assertion that he could be a bust down the line if someone pays for him and signs him long term. However, he is a rental and teams pay for rentals to help them with the Stanley cup. Simmonds is a perfect match for that type of sentiment. Teams do pay for that. The 2nd + NHL player is the same value of a 1st + project prospect. Neither is over the top.

Since you’re a flames fan, I think some of these would be fair:

PHI: Wayne Simmonds (50%)

CGY: 2019 2nd + Curtis Lazar + 2019 5th*

Cond.—> If Wayne Simmonds resigns... add a 2020 5th too.

—————

PHI: Wayne Simmonds (50%) + 2019 4th

CGY: 2019 1st + Martin Pospisil

Gaudreau - Monahan - Tkachuk
Frolik - Backlund - Lindholm
Bennett - Jankowski - Simmonds
Mangiapane - Ryan - Czarnik

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
JVR/Lindblom - Patrick - Voracek
JVR/Lindblom - Laughton - Raffl
Lazar - Varone - Bailey/NAK

I don’t think that’s a high ask for a player like Simmonds. This is what I mean by the ask for Simmonds. A team looking to make noise in the playoffs would be fools to say no to either trade. Simmonds doesn’t pan out in the Flyers picture because of young players needing resigning (Provorov, Sanheim, Patrick, Konecny, and so on) whole we have players like Frost, NAK, and possibly Rubtsov/Ratcliffe/Allison/Farabee making noise for spots soon.
Click to expand...
I'd possibly do the first, but no chance I'd do the 2nd.
 

CapnZin

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Lunatik said:
I'd possibly do the first, but no chance I'd do the 2nd.
Click to expand...
Generally, Pospisil may be higher on the CGY list, but he’s a 4th Line/B6 project that may not work out. He wouldn’t crack the top 10/15 on the flyers list. If the 1st is the deal breaker, on your terms, so be it, but both are fair offers.
 
Tripod

Tripod

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the good news is, we will all know the answer very soon. But for sure has value has gone down compared to a few years ago.

And for sure, I would not be a team looking to sign him to big money for 4-5 years.
 

phil162888

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Jul 28, 2012
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Today was a great day for Fletcher. Duschene goes to a surprising team in Columbus (for a good return) which likely means they are holding on to Panarin. Jenson went for a deep package as well. The amount of available top end players has now declined dramatically and you still have TB, SJ, Bos, Tor, Win, Nash, Pit, NYI,LV, Calgary all still potentially looking for an upgrade on defense or at forward. There's Stone, Simmonds, Hayes and Zuc as the main bargaining chips left. Not many decent Dmen either..... Its a sellers market now imo.
 
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BrindamoursNose

BrindamoursNose

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Oct 14, 2008
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phil162888 said:
Today was a great day for Fletcher. Duschene goes to a surprising team in Columbus (for a good return) which likely means they are holding on to Panarin. Jenson went for a deep package as well. The amount of available top end players has now declined dramatically and you still have TB, SJ, Bos, Tor, Win, Nash, Pit, NYI,LV, Calgary all still potentially looking for an upgrade on defense or at forward. There's Stone, Simmonds, Hayes and Zuc as the main bargaining chips left. Not many decent Dmen either..... Its a sellers market now imo.
Click to expand...

I'd say so, for sure.

Now let's hope Fletcher doesn't cock it up.
 
TheKingPin

TheKingPin

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phil162888 said:
Today was a great day for Fletcher. Duschene goes to a surprising team in Columbus (for a good return) which likely means they are holding on to Panarin. Jenson went for a deep package as well. The amount of available top end players has now declined dramatically and you still have TB, SJ, Bos, Tor, Win, Nash, Pit, NYI,LV, Calgary all still potentially looking for an upgrade on defense or at forward. There's Stone, Simmonds, Hayes and Zuc as the main bargaining chips left. Not many decent Dmen either..... Its a sellers market now imo.
Click to expand...

I’m certainly happy. It may be possible to get 1st + Tolvanen at this point.
 

TML1967

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Jul 20, 2010
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Love him in Toronto if we could make room to sign him, but that's not gonna happen
 
TheKingPin

TheKingPin

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Tripod said:
I believe you 2 are going to be disappointed.
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Yea maybe but Boyle went for a 2nd so that’s below what you’ll get for Simmonds. Duchene just went for a lot. Cbus 1 and 3 prospect. A first rounder that could be good. And a second rounder that could easily be a lottery pick if they sign him. If the jets add stone it’s prob going to cost more than Duchene. Nashville is then forced to add someone. Tolvanen is a good prospect but that’s still all he is. He’s not a sure bet at all or they’d keep him. He’s cooled off a lot in hype. So you’re looking at a struggling prospect and a late first.
 
Tripod

Tripod

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TheKingPin said:
Yea maybe but Boyle went for a 2nd so that’s below what you’ll get for Simmonds. Duchene just went for a lot. Cbus 1 and 3 prospect. A first rounder that could be good. And a second rounder that could easily be a lottery pick if they sign him. If the jets add stone it’s prob going to cost more than Duchene. Nashville is then forced to add someone. Tolvanen is a good prospect but that’s still all he is. He’s not a sure bet at all or they’d keep him. He’s cooled off a lot in hype. So you’re looking at a struggling prospect and a late first.
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Flyers should be happy with either one....not both.

And if I am wrong, I will gladly say it.
 
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