Was Morgan Rielly jobbed out of 2019 Norris nomination?

[VoluntaryDom]

Hedman got the nod based on reputation. Ryan McD was better than him this season.

eh idk about that,, mcdonagh had cernak who was a beast and hedman spent time dragging around girardi and a rapidly declining stralman

 

[Volica]

I thought he'd get the 3rd spot on voting, but I guess he managed to land in 4th.
Not a travesty, by any means, but I think he deserved a nod. On a top 10 team in the league; his numbers were inflated with some luck factor... but he was a 70+ point D with 20 goals.

This trophy was Giordano's to lose regardless.

 

[c3z4r]

both Rielly and Carlson got screwed out by Hedman, but personally I would have gone with Carlson at #3 and Rielly at #4.

I'm still a bit baffled as to how Hedman got the nomination instead, but then I remember how Doughty used to get the same type of reputation based nominations and it's not that surprising.

 

[KingPuckChoo]

well i dunno, who's shittier between Rielly and Burns? the shittier player should have been nominated, as per insanity

 

[KingPuckChoo]

both Rielly and Carlson got screwed out by Hedman, but personally I would have gone with Carlson at #3 and Rielly at #4.

it's insane that you think Hedman robbed them, but not Burns lol

Giordano
Hedman
Carlsson

honorable mentions: Suter, Josi, Pesce, S. Jones, McDonagh, Lindell, Rielly, Ekholm

 

[bossram]

Well. Rielly isn't really great defensively. That said, he was probably the best offensive defenseman in the NHL this year, and that way more than makes up for it. Rielly is basically what people think Erik Karlsson is.

And for that reason, he definitely deserves a Norris nomination nod. Certainly over Hedman.

Gio will win regardless though. He's old, therefore "he's due".

 

[c3z4r]

it's insane that you think Hedman robbed them, but not Burns lol

Giordano
Hedman
Carlsson

honorable mentions: Suter, Josi, Pesce, S. Jones, McDonagh, Lindell, Rielly, Ekholm

When a dman is their teams' top point producer by 9 points, goes over ppg and has 38 points more than the next defenseman on the team, while also being tied for 21st in the whole NHL for points, than that is insanely impressive.

The last time a dman was over ppg was Mike Green 10 years ago, and Karlsson was exactly ppg 3 seasons ago. Aside from that you had Lidstrom in 2005 being ppg, and absolutely nobody else since Leetch in 1995.

If that's not impressive and worthy of at least a Norris nomination, I don't know what is.

 

[The Macho King]

When a dman is their teams' top point producer by 9 points, goes over ppg and has 38 points more than the next defenseman on the team, while also being tied for 21st in the whole NHL for points, than that is insanely impressive.

The last time a dman was over ppg was Mike Green 10 years ago, and Karlsson was exactly ppg 3 seasons ago. Aside from that you had Lidstrom in 2005 being ppg, and absolutely nobody else since Leetch in 1995.

If that's not impressive and worthy of at least a Norris nomination, I don't know what is.

TBF, it was like... two seasons ago? where we had 3 Dmen in the top 20 in scoring league-wide. Scoring went up, so totals went up, but I don't think Burns' season is particularly impressive in that context.

 

[KingTux]

I mean for once I kind of agree with them. I would have put Rielly before Hedman

 

[ijuka]

At even strength reilly also had 40 points while hedman had 21.

For Ds this is a bit off as an argument, since one of the most important things for a #1 defenseman is their ability to run a power play.

Offensively, Rielly is very good but I don't think he should be in norris contention as long as he's unable to actually defend.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Yes. He should have been up there instead of Hedman.

 

[I am not exposed]

He should have been there instead of Hedman imo.

 

[KingPuckChoo]

When a dman is their teams' top point producer by 9 points, goes over ppg and has 38 points more than the next defenseman on the team, while also being tied for 21st in the whole NHL for points, than that is insanely impressive.

The last time a dman was over ppg was Mike Green 10 years ago, and Karlsson was exactly ppg 3 seasons ago. Aside from that you had Lidstrom in 2005 being ppg, and absolutely nobody else since Leetch in 1995.

If that's not impressive and worthy of at least a Norris nomination, I don't know what is.

all that is beautiful

but notice that all you talk about are goals, assists, points, ppg, ppp... (which i agree on all this 100%) but is very odd how a defenseman is being evaluated these days

i think in every aspect of life, be it a defender at soccer, being a defendant in court, military defense, and in any other realm of humanity, defense is defense, sometimes it's grey, but it's still defense

yet for some reason, in hockey DEFENSE really means OFFENSE, and thus defense really doesn't exist in hockey (judging by people that share your thinking)

it's as if, the real and only defense is the goalie, then you have 5 offensive players where two of them are in the back

but i fully disagree with that notion of course, i'm old school... defense literally means defending

now... talk about their...you know... DEFENSIVE capabilities?

 

[tony d]

Nope. He had a great year but the 3 finalists are just the way they should of been.

 

[Rangediddy]

I've never seen people this upset their player isn't going to be voted 3rd best defenseman.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Would say no, but great use of "jobbed," so had to vote yes just because of that.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I'd have him in over Hedman but I wouldn't go so far as to say he was 'jobbed'. Very reasonable to argue that he was 4th or even 5th.

 

[filinski77]

I'd probably have went:

1) Gio
2) Burns
3/4) Carlson or Rielly
5) Hedman

Carlson and Rielly had the same points/gp, with great teams around them. Rielly scored more goals, Carlson probably a bit better defensively, and plays 2 mins more a night (doubles Riellys PK time too)

 

[RedHawkDown]

Man I hate the leafs but yet again HF just launches blind hate against any leafs player.

he absolutely did. he's an elite #1dman and was far better than Hedman this year. the idea that he doesnt play D is also ridiculous and just tells you who doesn't watch the leafs. he's good at everything and the only actual competent defenseman on the leafs.

 

[c3z4r]

all that is beautiful

but notice that all you talk about are goals, assists, points, ppg, ppp... (which i agree on all this 100%) but is very odd how a defenseman is being evaluated these days

i think in every aspect of life, be it a defender at soccer, being a defendant in court, military defense, and in any other realm of humanity, defense is defense, sometimes it's grey, but it's still defense

yet for some reason, in hockey DEFENSE really means OFFENSE, and thus defense really doesn't exist in hockey (judging by people that share your thinking)

it's as if, the real and only defense is the goalie, then you have 5 offensive players where two of them are in the back

but i fully disagree with that notion of course, i'm old school... defense literally means defending

now... talk about their...you know... DEFENSIVE capabilities?

How do you quantify defensive capabilities of a player? Fewest high-danger chances created by opposing players? Fewest cross ice passes? Fewest shots against? Or do you go the route of most takeaways and fewest giveaways? Fewest turnover? Most blocked shots and hits? Please enlighten me as to how you decide a player's defensive capabilities on a season by season basis. Fewest goals against? Do goalies count or how do you separate a goaltender's performance from that of his defensemen?

As an example, this past year Brodin, Savard, Parayko, Spurgeon and Sanheim had the lowest amount of high danger scoring chances while they were on the ice, while Brodin, Spurgeon, Sanheim, Savard and Dahlin had the lowest amount of Scoring Chances against while the players were on the ice. Lastly, when it comes to the lowest count of goals off of high danger scoring chances you had Ekholm, Ellis, Lindell, Parayko and Muzzin.


So going by purely "defensive" metrics, the top 3 Norris contenders should be either Brodin, Spurgeon, Savard, Sanheim or Parayko, right?


I personally prefer if my defensemen are so dominating that they spend most of their time on the ice forcing the opposing team to defend, rather than have my defensemen stuck in their own zone shift after shift. I'd rather have somebody like Burns cycling the puck and punishing the other team with his offensive prowess, rather than somebody like previous seasons Vlasic.

 

[Trocity]

Bergeron has been considered one of the best forwards in the league for years. He has never put up elite numbers. He is one of the best because of his Selke qualities. He is a shutdown center.

Burns is the opposite. Over a ppg, and led his team in points(for the 3rd straight year). The trophy is for the best defenseman, that's it. Burns plays defense and puts up 1st line forward numbers. Are there better defenders than him? Obviously there are plenty. But the guy plays the position of defenseman and has been the best player on his team for at least 3 years running, and his team has always been a top team. How many defensemen in the league are on "contenders" and are the best player on the team?

Btw, no love for Drew Doughty?

 

[Freudian]

He was one of 5-6 that could have been nominated.

 

[blinkman360]

Rielly was jobbed out and got the golden shovel.

...buried.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

all that is beautiful

but notice that all you talk about are goals, assists, points, ppg, ppp... (which i agree on all this 100%) but is very odd how a defenseman is being evaluated these days

i think in every aspect of life, be it a defender at soccer, being a defendant in court, military defense, and in any other realm of humanity, defense is defense, sometimes it's grey, but it's still defense

yet for some reason, in hockey DEFENSE really means OFFENSE, and thus defense really doesn't exist in hockey (judging by people that share your thinking)

it's as if, the real and only defense is the goalie, then you have 5 offensive players where two of them are in the back

but i fully disagree with that notion of course, i'm old school... defense literally means defending

now... talk about their...you know... DEFENSIVE capabilities?

The James Norris Memorial Trophy, or simply the Norris Trophy, is awarded annually to the National Hockey League's top "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position".

This is how the Award has been described since its inception. You are using the term “old school” to describe a line of thinking that has never applied to the Norris Trophy. That is revisionist history at its finest.

Beyond that, Burns’ defensive abilities are underrated. He is asked to drive his team’s offense and he does so with a high risk brand of hockey with fairly poor defensive results but don’t equate that with him not being able to defend.

You seem fairly obsessed with Sharks defensemen, I’m curious to know whether or not you watched last night’s game. And if you did, I’m curious to know what you thought of Burns playing over 42 minutes and not being scored on in those minutes.

it's insane that you think Hedman robbed them, but not Burns lol

Giordano
Hedman
Carlsson

honorable mentions: Suter, Josi, Pesce, S. Jones, McDonagh, Lindell, Rielly, Ekholm

Yeah, give an honorable mention to Esa Lindell before you even consider Brent Burns.

And then give one to Rielly before Burns, even though you’re placing a heavy emphasis on defensive play.

Great work!

 

[KingPuckChoo]

How do you quantify defensive capabilities of a player? Fewest high-danger chances created by opposing players? Fewest cross ice passes? Fewest shots against? Or do you go the route of most takeaways and fewest giveaways? Fewest turnover? Most blocked shots and hits? Please enlighten me as to how you decide a player's defensive capabilities on a season by season basis. Fewest goals against? Do goalies count or how do you separate a goaltender's performance from that of his defensemen?

As an example, this past year Brodin, Savard, Parayko, Spurgeon and Sanheim had the lowest amount of high danger scoring chances while they were on the ice, while Brodin, Spurgeon, Sanheim, Savard and Dahlin had the lowest amount of Scoring Chances against while the players were on the ice. Lastly, when it comes to the lowest count of goals off of high danger scoring chances you had Ekholm, Ellis, Lindell, Parayko and Muzzin.


So going by purely "defensive" metrics, the top 3 Norris contenders should be either Brodin, Spurgeon, Savard, Sanheim or Parayko, right?


I personally prefer if my defensemen are so dominating that they spend most of their time on the ice forcing the opposing team to defend, rather than have my defensemen stuck in their own zone shift after shift. I'd rather have somebody like Burns cycling the puck and punishing the other team with his offensive prowess, rather than somebody like previous seasons Vlasic.

Now you're talking about preferences... sure if I had a team i'd just put 5 mario lemieuxs on the ice

Lemieux - Lemieux - Lemieux

Lemieux - Lemieux

now im sure LD Lemieux will score 150pts this year...
best offensive player of the year? possibly, yes
best defenceman? no

but that's what PREFERENCES ARE

preferences sway away from DEFINITION

if that's what you choose, fine! no one is debating that Burns isn't a good hockey player

don't bash on Vlasic for actually defending lol that's absurd

Also, your description doesn't permit for somebody in the middle? like scoring 40pts and be GOOD both ways? like Giordano, Doughty, Suter, and i take those 3 over Burns Karlsson Subban 24/7

notice none of these players are Spurgeon, Hjllarmarsson, Vlasic types, but they fit the definition of a complete defenseman

Regardless, this NEW ERA debate (because it was virtually none existent before Karlsson came into the league) will not end for the moment

the best thing for the league is to keep the original essence of a Norris trophy as is
and then do a Bobby Orr trophy (as it has been often suggested) for the defenseman with the most hat-tricks or wtv offensive stat you drool over