Was Kobe better than LeBron?

[Stylizer1]

Totally dude. If LeBron just had that mamba mentality and shot 6-24 in game 7 of the finals while offering little else besides scoring, just think how many fewer championships he would have.

Kobe had a bad shooting night but was clutch in the 4th. He was guarded by Ray Allen the whole night who is a good defender. It was Gasol who was the key in that win.

 

[Addison Rae]

Sorry but I would rather actually watch the games instead of burring your head in stats that don't paint the whole picture.

WATCH THE GAMES!!! Is such a completely lame argument.
You have some of the worst LeBron takes I’ve ever seen, you claimed honouring his friend and mentors death with a tattoo “was all about him”!!!! Which is nothing short of disgusting.

LeBron is better than Kobe at pretty much everything in the playoffs. The idea that WATCHING THE GAMEs is somehow more convincing than objective data that actually you know records what actually happens in the games.

 

[sparxx87]

LeBron is literally the best elimination game player statistically in the history of the sport.

LeBron is better in the playoffs by literally every ****ing metric.

BUT NARRATIVES! Some of you people need to stick to hockey.

Really? Here I was thinking 5-2 was better than 3-6. Silly me.

Statistics fail to account for much of what’s happened and will always require a lot context. This oversimplification makes your last line even more ironic.

Bye now.

 

[Voight]

LeBron is a more accomplished regular season player but in the playoffs I’d take Kobe without a second thought. Kobe could could rise to the occasion in big moments as well as anyone.

Even in the famous game 7 win against Golden State, LeBron was throwing bricks down the stretch (including a missed layup) and it was Kyrie who hit the clutch shot. Ray Allen hit that memorable shot for Miami after Bosh’s offensive rebound from another LeBron miss. He’s great at getting to the dance but he loses more than he wins when the stakes are the highest..

Friday night in the Kobe tribute night where the world was watching, he was pretty mediocre. It was Dame Lillard who rose to the occasion and carried his team to the W. Obviously that isn’t a playoff game, but it was a huge game with a lot of emotion against a very beatable team... and he couldn’t get it done.


LeBron is the greatest combination of power, speed and skill we’ve ever seen, but he doesn’t have that Mamba mentality in big moments.... When it matters most, it’s Kobe.

Don't forget when Bron averaged 17 PPG in the 2011 finals while in his prime years.

The posts I'm seeing make Skip Bayless look insightful. Some people need to actually watch some basketball.

Thats funny coming from someone who said Stockton and Barkley were better than Kobe.....

 

[FiveTacos]

Thats funny coming from someone who said Stockton and Barkley were better than Kobe.....

And for all the dumping on Kobe for game 7 shooting ... he did get to the line 15 times, and grabbed 15 boards. And let's face it, that game was an ugly defensive slugfest all around ... Pierce and Allen shot like crap too.

But yes, it's funny that he'll bring up Kobe's bad shooting in one game ... yet tout John Stockton as better, a guy who rang up games like this in the '98 Finals:

9 pts, 7 ast, 5 to
3 pts, 7 ast, 5 to
10 pts, 5 ast, 3 to

To be honest, watching those games I though Stockton was lousy; he flat out stunk in half the games, and was at best mediocre to good for the others. For as much as people say the MJ Bulls were invincible, there were numerous times where if they'd gotten merely "pretty good" play from Stockton for all of that series they very well could/should have won. And let's remember, until the Jazz broke through the West they were largely perceived as playoff chokers, in no small part because Stockton had an upper limit to his game that was nowhere near the all-time greats.

That's why I laugh anytime anyone puts Stockton among the best PGs ever. On the old usenet there was a guy back in the 90s who studied assists as a research project for an early analytics company, trying to quantify assist quality. He found all sorts of assist inflation during Stockton's home games ... a number of times even getting credit for assists on baskets that HE SCORED (back then official stats were kept by a home team employee, and by far Utah's scorekeeper was fudging numbers the most). If any player is among the most overrated of all time, it's Stockton, not Kobe.

 

[Neutrinos]

And for all the dumping on Kobe for game 7 shooting ... he did get to the line 15 times, and grabbed 15 boards. And let's face it, that game was an ugly defensive slugfest all around ... Pierce and Allen shot like crap too.

But yes, it's funny that he'll bring up Kobe's bad shooting in one game ... yet tout John Stockton as better, a guy who rang up games like this in the '98 Finals:

9 pts, 7 ast, 5 to
3 pts, 7 ast, 5 to
10 pts, 5 ast, 3 to

To be honest, watching those games I though Stockton was lousy; he flat out stunk in half the games, and was at best mediocre to good for the others. For as much as people say the MJ Bulls were invincible, there were numerous times where if they'd gotten merely "pretty good" play from Stockton for all of that series they very well could/should have won. And let's remember, until the Jazz broke through the West they were largely perceived as playoff chokers, in no small part because Stockton had an upper limit to his game that was nowhere near the all-time greats.

That's why I laugh anytime anyone puts Stockton among the best PGs ever. On the old usenet there was a guy back in the 90s who studied assists as a research project for an early analytics company, trying to quantify assist quality. He found all sorts of assist inflation during Stockton's home games ... a number of times even getting credit for assists on baskets that HE SCORED (back then official stats were kept by a home team employee, and by far Utah's scorekeeper was fudging numbers the most). If any player is among the most overrated of all time, it's Stockton, not Kobe.

Stockton was 36 years old during those '98 Finals

 

[LaVar]

Lets not forget this fun fact.

Jordan NEVER had a team mate average over 22 PPG in the finals. We always hear how Jordan had such a great team, well in the finals it was strictly the Michael show. Not saying Pippen or Rodman were irrelevant but Jordan carried the load and then some.

LeBron had two - Wade & Kyrie.

lebron never faced a team that put up 54 points in the finals lmfao

what does this even mean

 

[Neutrinos]

Really? Here I was thinking 5-2 was better than 3-6. Silly me.

Statistics fail to account for much of what’s happened and will always require a lot context. This oversimplification makes your last line even more ironic.

Bye now.

Another way to look at it would be 7 < 9

But if you insist on using team accomplishments as the main factor for determining a player's greatness, then I guess we have to put Robery Horry above LeBron and Kobe

 

[LaVar]

Really? Here I was thinking 5-2 was better than 3-6. Silly me.

Statistics fail to account for much of what’s happened and will always require a lot context. This oversimplification makes your last line even more ironic.

Bye now.

Shaq in the 3-peat:

2000 - 38/17/2 with 3 blocks a game
2001 - 33/16/5 with 3.5 blocks a game
2002 - 36/12/4 with 3 blocks a game

but yes, Kobe is the sole reason he's 5-2 in the finals.

 

[Stylizer1]

lebron never faced a team that put up 54 points in the finals lmfao

what does this even mean

The Bulls caused Utah to put up 54 points. It's called the definition of dominance.

 

[sparxx87]

Another way to look at it would be 7 < 9

But if you insist on using team accomplishments as the main factor for determining a player's greatness, then I guess we have to put Robery Horry above LeBron and Kobe

Do you consider winning the east and winning the west to be equal during the years in question? Or would that be part of the context I was referring to when suggesting raw numbers don’t tell the whole story?

I don’t insist on anything, I was simply replying to someone who said LeBron was better in the playoffs by every metric with a metric where LeBron wasn’t better.

Shaq in the 3-peat:

2000 - 38/17/2 with 3 blocks a game
2001 - 33/16/5 with 3.5 blocks a game
2002 - 36/12/4 with 3 blocks a game

but yes, Kobe is the sole reason he's 5-2 in the finals.

Could you kindly direct me to where I said Kobe was the sole reason? Because I don’t think I’d ever say something so foolish about an individual player in a team sport.

 

[Voight]

lebron never faced a team that put up 54 points in the finals lmfao

what does this even mean

what does this even mean? Should we hold that against Jordan? Even though its because of his elite defence, along with his team mats help that said team put up 54 points? You say that as if he was playing against the current Knicks.

What does my post mean? That People say Jordan had great team mates and like to say that Bron does it on his own but statistically speaking his team mates performed better in a couple of the finals. As good as Pippen was, it was always Jordan carrying the team to victory.

 

[LaVar]

Do you consider winning the east and winning the west to be equal during the years in question? Or would that be part of the context I was referring to when suggesting raw numbers don’t tell the whole story?

I don’t insist on anything, I was simply replying to someone who said LeBron was better in the playoffs by every metric with a metric where LeBron wasn’t better.

Could you kindly direct me to where I said Kobe was the sole reason? Because I don’t think I’d ever say something so foolish about an individual player in a team sport.

So you acknowledge winning championships is typically a team effort, and isn't on any one individual, yet use team accomplishments in an argument about two individual players?

LeBron is a more accomplished regular season player but in the playoffs I’d take Kobe without a second thought. Kobe could could rise to the occasion in big moments as well as anyone.

...

When it matters most, it’s Kobe.

Even when you factor in their bodies of work? How LeBron has shot better down the stretch in clutch situations and how he contributes more outside of scoring as well?

Genuinely curious.

 

[LaVar]

what does this even mean? Should we hold that against Jordan? Even though its because of his elite defence, along with his team mats help that said team put up 54 points? You say that as if he was playing against the current Knicks.

What does my post mean? That People say Jordan had great team mates and like to say that Bron does it on his own but statistically speaking his team mates performed better in a couple of the finals. As good as Pippen was, it was always Jordan carrying the team to victory.

The problem is you're comparing their basic stats while they played in different eras. You're assuming pace, how the game was played, etc are all the same now as they were back then.

If you want an accurate representation and actually want to compare them, check their per 100 possession stats + advanced stats. You'll see that Kyrie in the playoffs has been a slightly better scorer, but Pippen was no slouch there, and was a better rebounder, better playmaker, and defensively not even close. Check their respective VORP's, not even close. Factor in how there's a greater emphasis on the 3 point shot in this era...

Point is you can't just compare basic stats from different era's without context...

And when has anybody said LeBron does it all on his own? The only time that's been true was his teams pre-Miami and 2018. I'm sure everybody acknowledges he's been on great teams in recent years.

 

[FiveTacos]

Stockton was 36 years old during those '98 Finals

True he was past his prime. But his stat inflation was real and came during his prime. A lot of his playoff failures when they couldn't get out of the West were during his prime.

I watched nearly his entire career, the idea that he would ever sniff the top 10 all time ... well guys in that tier should flat out dominate games. He just wasn't that. He might get a bunch of assists, he could shoot a little, etc.. But we're talking about the best of the best of the best. The guys in that caliber just have another level that Stockton never did.

I was never an Isaiah Thomas fan, for example ... but that guy, when he was on, was as good a playmaker as Stockton, plus he could go for crazy offensive bursts (like his 43 points on a bum ankle with Michael Cooper all over him). The guy where you just go, "oh crap, he's gonna win this game all by himself and we can't do squat to stop it."

Kobe certainly had that quality. Stockton did not.

 

[Neutrinos]

True he was past his prime. But his stat inflation was real and came during his prime. A lot of his playoff failures when they couldn't get out of the West were during his prime.

I watched nearly his entire career, the idea that he would ever sniff the top 10 all time ... well guys in that tier should flat out dominate games. He just wasn't that. He might get a bunch of assists, he could shoot a little, etc.. But we're talking about the best of the best of the best. The guys in that caliber just have another level that Stockton never did.

I was never an Isaiah Thomas fan, for example ... but that guy, when he was on, was as good a playmaker as Stockton, plus he could go for crazy offensive bursts (like his 43 points on a bum ankle with Michael Cooper all over him). The guy where you just go, "oh crap, he's gonna win this game all by himself and we can't do squat to stop it."

Kobe certainly had that quality. Stockton did not.

He's the all-time leader in assists with 15806 - that's 3715 more than the next guy

And, yeah, he could shoot a little. He's got a TS% of .608 - which is 14th all-time

Oh, and he's the NBA's all-time leader in steals as well with 3265 - which is 581 more than the next guy

He's not a top 10 player, but then, I don't know of anyone who's making that claim

 

[FiveTacos]

He's not a top 10 player, but then, I don't know of anyone who's making that claim

It was just in response to a poster who claimed Stockton was way better than Kobe, who's generally considered top 10.

But I really don't want to turn this into a Stockton thread. I'll just leave it at this, I saw Stockton nearly all his career, and I never felt he was nearly as good as his numbers suggested, and I never saw him as a particularly distinguished big-game performer. I mean, he may have had more assists than Magic, but anyone with eyes could see who was better at passing.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

LeBron is the better of the two overall, but if Bryant had LeBron's body it wouldn't even be close in Kobe's favor. Few worked as hard as he did, nor did they have the ability to just own an entire game/series like Kobe.

 

[Voight]

LeBron is the better of the two overall, but if Bryant had LeBron's body it wouldn't even be close in Kobe's favor. Few worked as hard as he did, nor did they have the ability to just own an entire game/series like Kobe.

This is the absolute perfect way to put it

Especially with the body comment, Kobe "made up" for it in pure work ethic.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

This is the absolute perfect way to put it

Especially with the body comment, Kobe "made up" for it in pure work ethic.

When he first came into the league, I wasn't even sure he'd be pretty good, let alone one of the goats. His work and mindset was all the difference.

 

[weastern bias]

Lebron is top-10 all time

Kobe is top-15 all time

One was slightly better than the other, but it's honestly pretty close and not worth a heated debate

 

[member 51464]

Lebron is top-10 all time

Kobe is top-15 all time

One was slightly better than the other, but it's honestly pretty close and not worth a heated debate

Aren't heated debates most worthwhile when it is pretty close? If it's a slam dunk for one, then debate is pointless.

 

[Neutrinos]

Lebron is top-10 all time

Kobe is top-15 all time

One was slightly better than the other, but it's honestly pretty close and not worth a heated debate

Depending on your interpretation of "top", I think it could be argued that Kobe isn't even among the top 15 players of the last 30 years

Jordan
LeBron
Shaq
Durant
Olajuwon
David Robinson
Duncan
Garnett
Malone
Barkley
Grant Hill
Nowitzki
Wade
McGrady
Westbrook
Chris Paul
Anthony Davis
Harden
Leonard
Curry
Antetokounmpo
Payton

Clearly Kobe had a better career than the majority of the players listed, so in this argument the rankings lean towards "best" rather than "greatest"

And for the record, I'm not claiming these players were better, only that I think reasonable arguments could be made

 

[Terry Yake]

Lebron is top-10 all time

Kobe is top-15 all time

One was slightly better than the other, but it's honestly pretty close and not worth a heated debate

lebron is top 3 all time. no way you can keep him out of the top 3

i'd still put magic ahead of him right now but you can easily make an argument for him at #2 and he'll probably be there anyways when he retires

 

[weastern bias]

Depending on your interpretation of "top", I think it could be argued that Kobe isn't even among the top 15 players of the last 30 years

Jordan
LeBron
Shaq
Durant
Olajuwon
David Robinson
Duncan
Garnett
Malone
Barkley
Grant Hill
Nowitzki
Wade
McGrady
Westbrook
Chris Paul
Harden
Antetokounmpo
Payton

Clearly Kobe had a better career than the majority of the players listed, so in this argument the rankings lean towards "best" rather than "greatest"

And for the record, I'm not claiming these players were better, only that I think reasonable arguments could be made

Whether you're arguing "top" to mean better or greater I'm gonna give a hard-fast NOPE to everyone in the bold

Some of those names are actually silly, Malone? Barkley? Hill? McGrady? Westbrook? Paul? Harden? Come on, those guys can't even touch Kobe

The ship hasn't yet sailed for Giannis, he has a chance to be better, but let him actually accomplish something of note in the playoffs first

lebron is top 3 all time. no way you can keep him out of the top 3

i'd still put magic ahead of him right now but you can easily make an argument for him at #2 and he'll probably be there anyways when he retires

I can't justify Lebron in the top-5

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Wilt

All of them are definitively ahead of Lebron in my book, and Tim Duncan has a strong case as well