Discussion in 'Basketball' started by Bertuzzzi44, Jan 29, 2020.
Little else besides 15 rebounds and 11 made free throws?
Lebron shot 7-18, 3-14 and 8-21 in three straight losses to that same Celtics team and was accused of quitting on his team with people thinking he already had one foot out the door. He had 7 turnovers in game 5 and 9 turnovers in the game 6 that got his team eliminated.
Personally I don’t think he quit, but it was a surprising collapse, second only to the surprising collapse against Dallas in the Finals. That 61 win Cavs team was the #1 seed and the clear favorite in the East.
But this shows how awesome that Celtics defense was.
The existance of this thread is embarassing. If the finals don't matter, LeBron is = to Kobe.
Ask Jordan who deserve to be compared to him. You got your answer.
Jordan's ego would never allow him to publicly acknowledge LeBron was better Kobe
He knows Kobe can't challenge him for GOAT, but LeBron can
Lebron wasn't as skilled as Kobe.
LeBrons chance at challenging Jordan for the GOAT title is long gone at this point, unless he pulls off a 3 peat with LA and then wins DPOY, maybe a few more scoring titles or MVPs.
Quantity < Quality.
I agree. If basketball was only about skill Steve Nash would be far and away the best player ever.
Lebron is much bigger, more athletic, and incomparably more intelligent of a basketball player.
LeBron is undoubtably the more dynamic Offensive player mostly due to his incredible court vision and passing ability. LeBron was also more versatile on defence, largely due to his unique blend of athleticism and size. In terms of scoring, Kobe had more tools but was smaller and therefore had to take lesser percentage shots, while lebron used his physical gifts to get to the basket more and therefore he’s more efficient, both incredible scorers just different.
Based on that last paragraph you’d think I’d take LBJ in a landslide, but I honestly think the difference is razor thin, largely due to some thing you can’t quantify using statistics—- competitive fire and tenacity and Kobe had that in spades. Kobe was absolutely a more tenacious on ball defender, and last I checked 50% of the game is spent on defence, therefore this matters. Kobe was the ultimate competitor and I truly believe this closes the gap significantly when comparing the 2.
I was so close to agreeing with you on the first paragraph then you reverted to intangibles in the second. Lebron was so much better on defense. The defensive gap is bigger than the offensive gap. Kobe's defense is incredibly overrated because people remember him tenaciously defend opposing perimeter players one on one but A) he only did this a small part of the game. B) He was prone to overcommitting while doing this and getting blown by. C) off-ball defense is just as important and he wasn't remarkable in this regard. Kobe's numerous all-defense selections are not even close to justified statistically once he took on a superstar offensive load. That's the biggest reason he's not even close to Lebron or Jordan.
Acting as though your knowledge is superior to those who voted Kobe to all-defence is arrogant and delusional. Intangibles absolutely matter and it’s what separated someone like Kobe from Vince Carter for example.
Appealing to the authority of the voters is lazy and stupid. I'm definitely not on an island re: Kobe's defense. That's a pretty common opinion. His plus/minus numbers on defense were average, and his box score stats like steals and blocks were not that remarkable, and worse than guards who made far fewer all-defense teams. Very tangible things separated Kobe from Vince Carter, too.
LeBron is better at a wider variety of things, but Kobe was more skilled as a scorer and I feel he was mentally tougher and more competitive.
It's close. LeBron's Heat teams versus the 2008 Lakers with Kobe/Gasol would be an interesting match up, I don't think there's much of an edge to either side.
It’s lazy and stupid? Those voters I can guarantee have infinitely more knowledge than you, especially considering you brought up plus/minus to back up your argument on defence, stick to hockey, unless you value plus/minus for that too
I have to give Kobe credit here too ... he was more competitive. Dude is busting his ass in an All-Star game and going at LeBron and he was old by this time, like 34.
I doubt Team USA in 2004 finishes with a bronze medal if Kobe was on that team.
Plus/minus metrics are the most accepted way to measure two way impact in one number in both hockey and basketball statistics, and particularly to measure defensive impact given the inferiority of defensive box score stats. Kobe's impact in them the second half of his career was average or a slight negative, and I've never seen anything in his tape to suggest otherwise. Looked like he gave a shit sometimes but deeply flawed as a defender.
Maybe, but mostly because Larry Brown would have trusted him in the key rounds, which he didn't for Lebron, who barely played in the semifinal game against Argentina. And Kobe was a better player before 2008.
Bryant's defensive impact went down when he started trying to take more control on offence during the Lakers' three consecutive championships and never really recovered. I see a lot of those defensive all NBA team selections as reputation picks. The tools were there but his focus was pretty clearly on offence by the early to mid 2000s so his defence understandably suffered. I'd say that James was never as heavily skewed to focusing on offence, and his size/speed advantages made him a consistently more effective defensive player.
Plus/minus metrics are largely designed to tell you how effective a unit is as opposed to how good an individual player is. Either way, slightly off topic. Players who played against both largely choose Kobe over LBJ and revere his “intangibles”
I'm talking about plus/minus metrics that use regression to isolate a player's impact from the various units on which they played and over a large sample, do so effectively.
I think that if their contemporaries prefer Kobe, it's mostly due to a generational bias. Players who played against both tend to be around Lebron's age and grew up idolizing Kobe, not Lebron.
So their opinion isn’t valid but yours is? Like the guys who have intimate experience playing both while you have tv and YouTube highlights, ok cool. No need for us to argue this any further it’s not going anywhere
Lebron is not in the same category as Kobe. LeBron should be compared to Magic.
He doesn't have what Kobe and Jordan had.
If you're only talking about style/personality rather than how good they actually were on the basketball court, sure. Lebron and Magic were both more effective basketball players than Kobe.
I'm still annoyed LeBron choked in 2009 and 2010 and we didn't get Kobe vs LeBron finals
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