Was Kobe better than LeBron?

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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OK lets see then.
Season MVP , Jordan 5 Lebron 4
Finals MVP , Jordan 6, Lebron 3
All NBA 1st , Jordan 10, Lebron 12
All Defensive 1st, Jordan 9, Lebron 6
Defensive POY, Jordan 1, Lebron 0
Scoring Leader, Jordan 10, Lebron 1
Steals leader , Jordan 3, Lebron 0

If this doesn't prove it to you nothing will it's really not close at all. Lebron is a great player but Jordan is Jordan. Also remember he sat out 2 years of his prime.

First of all, most of those accomplishments were voted on

The flaw in using MVP voting, etc. to rank players is obvious. Barkley and Malone were both voted MVP over Jordan, but we all know who should've won it those years

That same flaw is found in the voting for Finals MVP. Here are some of LeBron's averages in the Finals that he didn't win MVP:

2014: 28.2 PPG/7.8 RPG/4.0 APG/57.1 FG%/51.9 3P% (Leonard was awarded MVP after averaging 17 points, 6.4 rebounds, 2 assists)

2015: 35.8 PPG/13.3 RPG/8.8 APG/39.8 FG%/31.0 3P% (Iguodala was awarded MVP after averaging 16.3 points, 5.8 rebounds, 4 assists)

2017: 33.6 PPG/12.0 RPG/10.0 APG/56.4 FG%/38.7 3P% (Durant won Finals MVP)

2018: 34 PPG/8.5 RPG/10 APG/52.7 FG%/ 33.3 3P% (Durant won Finals MVP)

As you can see, Finals MVP isn't always awarded to the most deserving player

Take 2017 for example. LeBron became the 1st player in history to average a triple-double in the Finals, but his team lost, so the MVP went to Durant

In fact, only once in the NBA's history has the Finals MVP been awarded to a player on the losing team. That was back in '69, the 1st year the Finals MVP was ever awarded


Secondly, George Mikan lead the NBA in scoring 3x, whereas Nowitzki and Duncan never did. Are we to conclude then that Mikan was a better scorer than Dirk and Tim?

The point being, you can't just say Player X accomplished this in his era, therefore he's better than Player Z from another era
 
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Stylizer1

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Lebron was probably the better player, but Kobe worried me more when my team was going against him. The guy was such a competitor.
This is what these debates really come down too. Making the right play is an excuse for saying it wasn't my fault. With Jordan and Kobe the right play was always let them take the last shot.
 

Stylizer1

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First of all, most of those accomplishments were voted on

The flaw in using MVP voting, etc. to rank players is obvious. Barkley and Malone were both voted MVP over Jordan, but we all know who should've won it those years

That same flaw is found in the voting for Finals MVP. Here are some of LeBron's averages in the Finals that he didn't win MVP:

2014: 28.2 PPG/7.8 RPG/4.0 APG/57.1 FG%/51.9 3P% (Leonard was awarded MVP after averaging 17 points, 6.4 rebounds, 2 assists)

2015: 35.8 PPG/13.3 RPG/8.8 APG/39.8 FG%/31.0 3P% (Iguodala was awarded MVP after averaging 16.3 points, 5.8 rebounds, 4 assists)

2017: 33.6 PPG/12.0 RPG/10.0 APG/56.4 FG%/38.7 3P% (Durant won Finals MVP)

2018: 34 PPG/8.5 RPG/10 APG/52.7 FG%/ 33.3 3P% (Durant won Finals MVP)

As you can see, Finals MVP isn't always awarded to the most deserving player

Take 2017 for example. LeBron became the 1st player in history to average a triple-double in the Finals, but his team lost, so the MVP went to Durant

In fact, only once in the NBA's history has the Finals MVP been awarded to a player on the losing team. That was back in '69, the 1st year the Finals MVP was ever awarded


Secondly, George Mikan lead the NBA in scoring 3x, whereas Nowitzki and Duncan never lead the league in scoring. Are we to conclude then that Mikan was a better scorer than Dirk and Tim?

The point being, you can't just say Player X accomplished this in his era, therefore he's better than Player Z from another era
The MVP is more than just stats though. The way Kawhi and Igoudala played guarding James is the reason they won the MVP. There are many plays that don't show up in the stats that have major effects on a game.
 

Scandale du Jour

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A game like tonight is why I will always prefer Kobe to Lebron.

No way in hell Kobe would have let Lilliard outshine him in his own house on such an emotional night. He would have dropped 60 on the Blazers. He would have hit that 3 with 1:14 left.

Lebron played well, nearly had a triple double, but he did not take the game over. Lakers looked emotinally out of it all night. Understandable, but Kobe would have never let that happen.

Lebron is a better player, no doubt. Kobe, to me, is more legendary.

I respect Lebron and he is the second best ever, but he does not and never will have Kobe's aura. He at least will always have game 7 against the Dubs.
 

Cassano

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Yeah Jordan and Kobe didn't join a super team but they did play on one. Why is it LeBron's fault that he was drafted by the crappy Cavs with an even crappier management?
LeBron was the brains behind a lot of the moves with the Cavs during his 2nd stint. He got his boys AKA bonafide scrubs TT and Shumpert paid that prevented the Cavs from potentially repeating. Prior to LeBron joining, they had the #1 overall pick, Irving, bunch of cap space for LeGM to work with.

In Miami he also had them draft Shabazz Napier in the 1st round. He was by far the best player on the planet with Miami, but I think only going 2-2 with the Heatles era is a disappointment in itself. A core nucleus with the big 3, vets taking mins and an amazing coach - that is disappointing IMO.

I believe it is certainly a closer argument if we consider both players and their presence on/as executives.
 
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JackSlater

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No and not really close. It's like a top 20ish player vs a top 3ish player.
 

Cassano

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Lebron is a better player, no doubt. Kobe, to me, is more legendary.

I respect Lebron and he is the second best ever, but he does not and never will have Kobe's aura. He at least will always have game 7 against the Dubs.
Agreed with this as well. I can't stand LeBron's lethargic defensive play (in recent years) and at times horrible/negative attitude on the court. Although it is way better this year.

Most NBA players who played during Kobe's time say he's the most competitive player to play against. I would like that guy ideally leading the team.

Him and MJ... cut from a different cloth.
 
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Stylizer1

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A game like tonight is why I will always prefer Kobe to Lebron.

No way in hell Kobe would have let Lilliard outshine him in his own house on such an emotional night. He would have dropped 60 on the Blazers. He would have hit that 3 with 1:14 left.

Lebron played well, nearly had a triple double, but he did not take the game over. Lakers looked emotinally out of it all night. Understandable, but Kobe would have never let that happen.

Lebron is a better player, no doubt. Kobe, to me, is more legendary.

I respect Lebron and he is the second best ever, but he does not and never will have Kobe's aura. He at least will always have game 7 against the Dubs.
This is exactly it. Lebron should have shut Lillard down but he is selective when he plays D.
 

Voight

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LeBron was the brains behind a lot of the moves with the Cavs during his 2nd stint. He got his boys AKA bonafide scrubs TT and Shumpert paid that prevented the Cavs from potentially repeating. Prior to LeBron joining, they had the #1 overall pick, Irving, bunch of cap space for LeGM to work with.

In Miami he also had them draft Shabazz Napier in the 1st round. He was by far the best player on the planet with Miami, but I think only going 2-2 with the Heatles era is a disappointment in itself. A core nucleus with the big 3, vets taking mins and an amazing coach - that is disappointing IMO.

I believe it is certainly a closer argument if we consider both players and their presence on/as executives.

IIRC he never told Miami to draft Napier. He just tweeted that he liked him and Riley drafted him to convince Bron to stay :laugh: definitely a funny troll moment. After the loss to to the Spurs, I believe he had made up his mind 100% that he was going home.

But yes, when he went LeGM in CLE he really hurt the team. They were trading first round picks like it was going out of style for band-aid solutions just to hopefully win another title.

Knicks yes honestly forgot about Alonzo and Miami.

Tim Hardaway too in the mid-late 90s
 
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Voight

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You can argue all you want Jordan is way ahead of Lebron. Lebron =Kobe sure Kobe better scorer Lebron better all around player. Jordan played in era where players were mobbed with no foul and made plays with players hanging off him. Lebron is nowhere near Jordan for me. Lebron had a cake walk to finals playing in east and made it sure 9 times also lost it 6 times?? Lebron when up against a good western teams failed and the 2 wins with Heat he didn't do it alone. The one with Cleveland yes he was the man for sure but Jordan would have had 8 straight championships if didn't retire for the 2 seasons. Jordan also played against much better teams but that's subjective.

Lets not forget this fun fact.

Jordan NEVER had a team mate average over 22 PPG in the finals. We always hear how Jordan had such a great team, well in the finals it was strictly the Michael show. Not saying Pippen or Rodman were irrelevant but Jordan carried the load and then some.

LeBron had two - Wade & Kyrie.
 

FiveTacos

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Lets not forget this fun fact.

Jordan NEVER had a team mate average over 22 PPG in the finals. We always hear how Jordan had such a great team, well in the finals it was strictly the Michael show. Not saying Pippen or Rodman were irrelevant but Jordan carried the load and then some.

LeBron had two - Wade & Kyrie.

To me, the defining element of the Bulls was their D. When you have Pippen, Rodman/Grant, and MJ out there they could disrupt the hell out of other teams' offenses, and outside of a dominant post-up big man they could pretty much take away your best offensive player whenever needed. Of course, MJ's sabbatical just happened to coincide with the two years that the best post-up center in the league made the Finals, and he ended his Bulls run just before Duncan and Shaq were about to take over. His timing was very good. Most of the teams he beat in the Finals frankly were the perfectly wrong matchup to take on the Bulls.

Yes MJ carried the scoring load. He did not, however, carry the playmaking/ballhandling load, and he always had good shooters or guys who knew how to play off the ball so that it made doubling him all the time difficult (especially playing his position in the triangle). Honestly it was only raw physicality like with the Knicks or Pistons (that you can't do now) that would slow him down at all.

And of course, MJ was never afraid of taking big shots in the clutch. Lebron even now seems to hesitate at crunch time ... I suspect because he still lacks confidence in his FT shooting.
 

sparxx87

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LeBron is a more accomplished regular season player but in the playoffs I’d take Kobe without a second thought. Kobe could could rise to the occasion in big moments as well as anyone.

Even in the famous game 7 win against Golden State, LeBron was throwing bricks down the stretch (including a missed layup) and it was Kyrie who hit the clutch shot. Ray Allen hit that memorable shot for Miami after Bosh’s offensive rebound from another LeBron miss. He’s great at getting to the dance but he loses more than he wins when the stakes are the highest..

Friday night in the Kobe tribute night where the world was watching, he was pretty mediocre. It was Dame Lillard who rose to the occasion and carried his team to the W. Obviously that isn’t a playoff game, but it was a huge game with a lot of emotion against a very beatable team... and he couldn’t get it done.


LeBron is the greatest combination of power, speed and skill we’ve ever seen, but he doesn’t have that Mamba mentality in big moments.... When it matters most, it’s Kobe.
 

JetsWillFly4Ever

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LeBron is a more accomplished regular season player but in the playoffs I’d take Kobe without a second thought. Kobe could could rise to the occasion in big moments as well as anyone.

Even in the famous game 7 win against Golden State, LeBron was throwing bricks down the stretch (including a missed layup) and it was Kyrie who hit the clutch shot. Ray Allen hit that memorable shot for Miami after Bosh’s offensive rebound from another LeBron miss. He’s great at getting to the dance but he loses more than he wins when the stakes are the highest..

Friday night in the Kobe tribute night where the world was watching, he was pretty mediocre. It was Dame Lillard who rose to the occasion and carried his team to the W. Obviously that isn’t a playoff game, but it was a huge game with a lot of emotion against a very beatable team... and he couldn’t get it done.


LeBron is the greatest combination of power, speed and skill we’ve ever seen, but he doesn’t have that Mamba mentality in big moments.... When it matters most, it’s Kobe.
The only time anyone should rather have Kobe is taking the last minute shot.

The other 99% of the game Lebron is the better player.
 

Neutrinos

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The logic of taking Kobe in the playoffs because of last second heroics is rather flawed

You guys are arguing that you'd rather have the guy who shoots 11 for 25 because he's more likely to hit the last shot, instead of the guy who shoots 13 for 25

But if you had LeBron for the first 47 minutes of the game instead of Kobe, your team would likely be in a better position heading into the final seconds
 

sparxx87

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The only time anyone should rather have Kobe is taking the last minute shot.

The other 99% of the game Lebron is the better player.
I’d rather have Kobe in big games and in big moments. Playoff games are big games, and it’s a big moment when the game is on the line.

If LeBron had that clutch gene or that mamba mentality to persevere and rise above, he would never have left for Miami. I value that a lot more than regular season success and statistics.
 
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Stylizer1

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The logic of taking Kobe in the playoffs because of last second heroics is rather flawed

You guys are arguing that you'd rather have the guy who shoots 11 for 25 because he's more likely to hit the last shot, instead of the guy who shoots 13 for 25

But if you had LeBron for the first 47 minutes of the game instead of Kobe, your team would likely be in a better position heading into the final seconds
As long as Lebron has someone to make the right play too.
 
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Addison Rae

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I’d rather have Kobe in big games and in big moments. Playoff games are big games, and it’s a big moment when the game is on the line.

If LeBron had that clutch gene or that mamba mentality to persevere and rise above, he would never have left for Miami. I value that a lot more than regular season success and statistics.
LeBron is literally the best elimination game player statistically in the history of the sport.

LeBron is better in the playoffs by literally every f***ing metric.

BUT NARRATIVES! Some of you people need to stick to hockey.
 

Addison Rae

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A 2017 article on Bleacher Report about the the top clutch players in the NBA:

The NBA's Coldest End-of-Game Closers of the Last 10 Years


And a 2012 article of the statistical analysis of clutch shooters since 2000:

A Statistical Analysis Of Clutch NBA Shooters Since 2000
It’s just absolutely hilarious what narratives will do, LeBron is better at literally every metric by a distant margin yet CLUTCH GENE and buzz words make people believe in make believe stuff.

It’s really not close, it’s like like the Toews > Crosby arguments from 2013.
 

bambamcam4ever

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LeBron is literally the best elimination game player statistically in the history of the sport.

LeBron is better in the playoffs by literally every ****ing metric.

BUT NARRATIVES! Some of you people need to stick to hockey.
The posts I'm seeing make Skip Bayless look insightful. Some people need to actually watch some basketball.
 
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bambamcam4ever

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I’d rather have Kobe in big games and in big moments. Playoff games are big games, and it’s a big moment when the game is on the line.

If LeBron had that clutch gene or that mamba mentality to persevere and rise above, he would never have left for Miami. I value that a lot more than regular season success and statistics.
Totally dude. If LeBron just had that mamba mentality and shot 6-24 in game 7 of the finals while offering little else besides scoring, just think how many fewer championships he would have.
 

Stylizer1

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It’s just absolutely hilarious what narratives will do, LeBron is better at literally every metric by a distant margin yet CLUTCH GENE and buzz words make people believe in make believe stuff.

It’s really not close, it’s like like the Toews > Crosby arguments from 2013.
Sorry but I would rather actually watch the games instead of burring your head in stats that don't paint the whole picture.
 
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