Speculation: Was Babcock the reason why M&M didn't Sign for 8 Years

[AndyWozniewski]

Not only that, but he shot JFK too.

For some reason I read this as JFJ.

 

[Kiwi]

I dount it was a factor that that played a major role in where term and aav ended up.

But imo hard to deny that it likely ended up being a major obstacle to any of the guys giving the team a discount. Nobody is taking a paycut to play for a guy they hate

That's making the gigantic assumption our guys were willing to take some sort of a discount in the first place, if anything they all fought for every dollar they could possibly get

Its easy to bring up Babcock but it's on Dubas to bring them under control, especially since he's got the bulk of the leverage

He didn't, it's a fail on him but if he can do his job well he can work around it (which seems to be his thinking imo)

So no, this isn't on Babcock

 

[hotpaws]

Youd be very hard pressed to argue any of those guys were overpaid based on comparables. They either all got in line with what they were excpected ir even a bit under when fscroeing in term.

It should be fairly obvious imo that Spezza could have gotten a deal elsewhere. He literally signed for league minimum.

Again, i get why certain contracts are cause of concern, but these. Lanket claims that eery signing Dubas has made is bad is just silly

yet the blankets claims that all the deals he signed are market value aren't silly ?

going back over a decade to find Malkin as some sort of comparable for Mathews based on 5 on 5 g/60 is more than a little silly but hey it keeps getting regurgitated on here

 

[Kiwi]

The old RFA landscape has changed. Top end RFAs now get paid. and we are seeing older UFA players who used to get the big deals not get them anymore. Welcome to the new NHL pay program. To blame it on Dubie is a little unfair. Personally I thought he paid too much too, and maybe he did overpay some, but when there are other teams out there going to pay Mitch 10.6M what can he really do. To me that was the stopping point. But keep in mind if Mitch did not sign as season went on it would have hurt our CAP even more so a little goodwill was needed to grease the wheel.

We overpaid, Nylander's close, Matthews is 2 years short (that AAV over 5 years sucks) and Marner is over by close on 2M a year

I don't care who you are, if you get reamed like that in contract negotiations with the bulk of the leverage in your favor you should hang your head in shame

 

[Menzinger]

That's making the gigantic assumption our guys were willing to take some sort of a discount in the first place, if anything they all fought for every dollar they could possibly get

Its easy to bring up Babcock but it's on Dubas to bring them under control, especially since he's got the bulk of the leverage

He didn't, it's a fail on him but if he can do his job well he can work around it (which seems to be his thinking imo)

So no, this isn't on Babcock

I agree that its not on Babcock, but thr atmosphere that was in the dressingroom obviously wasnt conducive to getting a discount.

We dont know if the young guys would have even entertained one to begin with. But nobody is going to do it unless they 110% love every thing about the team rhey play for.

I mean the rumor in the media is that Marner seriously contemplated a trade request becaise of the coach.....

That player isnt going to start contract negotiations on agreeable terms....

 

[hotpaws]

Nobdy has claimed Dubas is the best GM in history. And Babcock had a fair amount of vocal critics on this board prior to his firing.

You're building a strawman here

the vast majority of this board thought Babs was a god before Dubas was hired and flamed anyone who dared say a negative word against him just like all of a sudden Keefe has now became the next great NHL coach

and Dubas gets praised endlessly like some great GM by a fair number of posters and i'll guarantee if the team struggles whoever gets hired in their place will also become the next bestest GM/coach , it's been this way for the decade i've been on this board

 

[Menzinger]

the vast majority of this board thought Babs was a god before Dubas was hired and flamed anyone who dared say a negative word against him just like all of a sudden Keefe has now became the next great NHL coach

and Dubas gets praised endlessly like some great GM by a fair number of posters and i'll guarantee if the team struggles whoever gets hired in their place will also become the next bestest GM/coach , it's been this way for the decade i've been on this board

Fans are allowed to be optimistic when someone is hired. Thats kind of the entire POINT of fandom lol, ie to cheer for the team. Theres no denying that a sizeable number of fans were fed up with Babcock after last season and he had very few vical defnders on these biards in the leadup to being fired. So youre talking nonsense here.

Being pessimisitc about every little thing doesnt make you any more of a "realist"than anyone else here. Its just blind pessimism

 

[Kiwi]

I agree that its not on Babcock, but thr atmosphere that was in the dressingroom obviously wasnt conducive to getting a discount.

We dont know if the young guys would have even entertained one to begin with. But nobody is going to do it unless they 110% love every thing about the team rhey play for.

I mean the rumor in the media is that Marner seriously contemplated a trade request becaise of the coach.....

That player isnt going to start contract negotiations on agreeable terms....

A guy like Kadri was using his NTC so he could stay, Gardiner was willing to take a discount to stay according to the guys at the athletic (there pretty connected so I'm inclined to believe it), also Nylander wanted assurances he wasn't going to be traded

So the room doesn't sound to bad and even Marner has gotten over what Babcock did to him when he was a rookie apparently

Who cares how the players feel though? If you have the leverage you should be able to jam something acceptable down there throats, Dubas couldn't hold the line and everybody knows it

This was a Dubas screw up

 

[Menzinger]

A guy like Kadri was using his NTC so he could stay, Gardiner was willing to take a discount to stay according to the guys at the athletic (there pretty connected so I'm inclined to believe it), also Nylander wanted assurances he wasn't going to be traded

So the room doesn't sound to bad and even Marner has gotten over what Babcock did to him when he was a rookie apparently

Who cares how the players feel though? If you have the leverage you should be able to jam something acceptable down there throats, Dubas couldn't hold the line and everybody knows it

This was a Dubas screw up

I agree that ultimately it comes.down to Dubas who makes the final call. But i still thing reading between the lines about what came out that the dressingroom was pretty divided on Babcock which i think logically may in some way impacted the negotions in one way or the other.

Will be interesting to see how the next batch of RFAs who were also developed under keefe fair during negotiations over the next couple seasons tonsee if theres a difference

 

[Kiwi]

I agree that ultimately it comes.down to Dubas who makes the final call. But i still thing reading between the lines about what came out that the dressingroom was pretty divided on Babcock which i think logically may in some way impacted the negotions in one way or the other.

Will be interesting to see how the next batch of RFAs who were also developed under keefe fair during negotiations over the next couple seasons tonsee if theres a difference

Dubas has done a decent job with the lesser RFA negotiations so I'd imagine that will continue, those guys aren't as important as the big 3 and have almost zero leverage because most of them are replaceable

The big ones were the big 3, Nylander was bad with bad optics and it seemed to embolden the other two guys afterwards

Dubas is young and inexperienced, sometimes you make mistakes when your still learning, just be better next time

 

[The Apologist]

Wow, 42% of us are so upset about Babs that we'll literally blame him for anything.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Wow, 42% of us are so upset about Babs that we'll literally blame him for anything.

If I know I'm working for a shitty boss I'm asking for more. I'm glad 42% of us agree.

 

[The Apologist]

If I know I'm working for a ****ty boss I'm asking for more. I'm glad 42% of us agree.

Yet Matthews still wanted 8 years here so obviously not the reason he didn't sign for 8 years.

So no, 42% still have no clue.

 

[Kiwi]

If I know I'm working for a ****ty boss I'm asking for more. I'm glad 42% of us agree.

He can ask for whatever he wants but last I looked he's still an RFA and we have a significant amount of leverage in that negotiation

So care to explain how it's Babcock's fault we couldn't hold the line with any of the big 3?

 

[Its not your fault]

That's making the gigantic assumption our guys were willing to take some sort of a discount in the first place, if anything they all fought for every dollar they could possibly get

Its easy to bring up Babcock but it's on Dubas to bring them under control, especially since he's got the bulk of the leverage

He didn't, it's a fail on him but if he can do his job well he can work around it (which seems to be his thinking imo)

So no, this isn't on Babcock

This! keep reaching everybody else.

 

[hotpaws]

Fans are allowed to be optimistic when someone is hired. Thats kind of the entire POINT of fandom lol, ie to cheer for the team. Theres no denying that a sizeable number of fans were fed up with Babcock after last season and he had very few vical defnders on these biards in the leadup to being fired. So youre talking nonsense here.

Being pessimisitc about every little thing doesnt make you any more of a "realist"than anyone else here. Its just blind pessimism

There’s a huge difference with being optimistic and burying your head in the sand so you can ignore any/every poor move a coach /GM makes and the funny thing about the optimists is that they’re the most negative posters on this board , they just don’t see it because they believe attacking anyone who doesn’t follow the sacred cow pecking order is what a true fan is obligated to do .

 

[rimshot]

For some reason I read this as JFJ.

Well that is just silly. Everyone knows that Babcock shot JFJ right in front of Mike Commodore's house while Coli was in the bathroom and Odog was busy with something in the kitchen.

 

[Hustlr]

You have nothing. And are wrong. Best to stay silent.

Mmkay buddy. Keep on keeping on..

 

[DarkKnight]

Willie said he was scared of being traded and got a promise from Dubie he wouldn't move him as long as he was GM . There were also reports he didn't want to sign cheap and get lapped by M and M . Nothing about wanting extra because of Babs .

There were endless reports Marner wanted the same money as Mathews and nothing about wanting more because of Babs ,

Mathews deal was negotiated halfway threw the season and there wasn't much speculation before it happened and nothing about him demanding more because of Babs .

Then Babs who was a god here for 3 yrs gets fired and now is being blamed for the Dube getting bent over . I've never understood why it's so important for some people to defend/make excuses for/spin every poor move our mgmt makes .

That’s a good point, Willie hated him so much he didn’t want to get traded.

This whole premise is just nonsense.

 

[Notsince67]

I have posted evidence for almost half of a year that conclusively proves that Matthews is a superior player, and you know that, because you spent a ton of time complaining about it. I have looked at historical signings and comparables, and while none of the contracts are cause for concern, it is evident that Matthews has a better contract relative to the quality of player he is, and that there are better historical comparables for him and that contract.

Marner is an amazing player, and I have shown extensive proof to support that, but you go way overboard and treat him as this team's god, and you have never supported anything you have said about him. In 6 months. And then you talk down to other people. Be better.

I said they were all overpaid while the poster said Marner was overpaid by something like 2mm while Nylander and Matthews were paid fairly. Now go ahead and defend that.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Yet Matthews still wanted 8 years here so obviously not the reason he didn't sign for 8 years.

So no, 42% still have no clue.

At what rate?

 

[dubplatepressure]

He can ask for whatever he wants but last I looked he's still an RFA and we have a significant amount of leverage in that negotiation

So care to explain how it's Babcock's fault we couldn't hold the line with any of the big 3?

New GM put into a position he should never have had to deal with.

Honestly you guys sensationalize this but it's not that special of a circumstance.

 

[Kiwi]

New GM put into a position he should never have had to deal with.

Honestly you guys sensationalize this but it's not that special of a circumstance.

That I completely agree with, Dubas was a young GM and he was put into a tough situation early in his tenure

I'm happy to give him a pass for it and hope he learned something that he can use in the future

I'm still not sure why Babcock was even brought into things

 

[supermann_98]

I don't believe that, a LOT can happen in 8 years ... With a coach firing being almost always necessary for a team to take the final step.

I think them not "taking a discount" had something to do with Babs tho.

 

[The Apologist]

At what rate?

Doesn't matter. The question doesn't specify rate. It states that Babs was the reason Auston didn't sign an 8 year deal. Clearly he was willing to.