The Athletic Vogl - Who Stays, Who Goes

[Fearnot]

Only thing I don't like about Zemgus is he was a bust for where he was drafted.

 

[Chainshot]

Only thing I don't like about Zemgus is he was a bust for where he was drafted.

Bust. I love that term.

Are we talking in a vacuum or relative to the rest of his draft? In terms of overall scoring for his draft year (he's 17th out of his draft class, even playing in this cesspit)? Games played (6th)? Unfulfilled expectations of someone who was billed as a workmanlike likely winger who would do dirty jobs to help a team win?

 

[GellMann]

Only thing I don't like about Zemgus is he was a bust for where he was drafted.

Don't people picked around 14 have a ~50% chance of ever playing 100 NHL games? Seems like we did fine there.

 

[MrMaster]

Bust. I love that term.

Are we talking in a vacuum or relative to the rest of his draft? In terms of overall scoring for his draft year (he's 17th out of his draft class, even playing in this cesspit)? Games played (6th)? Unfulfilled expectations of someone who was billed as a workmanlike likely winger who would do dirty jobs to help a team win?

Bust
BUST

BUUUUUST

 

[tsujimoto74]

Don't people picked around 14 have a ~50% chance of ever playing 100 NHL games? Seems like we did fine there.

There was definitely a time where a lot of us thought (or hoped, anyway) we had a 20+20 two-way C in him. That's not what we got, but he's turned into a very effective role player.

 

[WeDislikeEich]

I’m a lot more worried about what happens with Risto than I am about Bogosian and Sobotka.

I’m fine with Bogosian on the roster next season, as long as it doesn’t make Botterill think he can move Risto (in part) because he can rely on Bogo.

And I can deal with Sobotka for 1 more year (if I have to).


My concern is that Risto will be scapegoated this offseason like ROR was last offseason.

For all the hate Risto gets from HF boards and some in the analytics community, he’s still one of our best defenseman (and best players, in general).

The Sabres D corps looks worse without him, and we saw guys like Montour making similar mistakes when forced to play Risto minutes.

It’s not like we are deep on the right side of the blue line either. Nelson is a #7 type, and I don’t want to force Borgen in over his head, or Montour+Bogo for that matter.

If Botterill trades Risto, it has to be for a damn good return. No more trading our best players for futures, please! Unless those futures are damn near sure bets.

 

[SabresFanNorthPortFL]

Watching playoff hockey......


Are you relentless on the forecheck? Can you keep up? Can you play fast? Win puck battles?

Bye Pomms, Vlad and hopefully OK.

We will never compete with half (4/5players every game) the roster not being able to even keep up in today's NHL.

Trim the fat

 

[Fearnot]

Bust. I love that term.

Are we talking in a vacuum or relative to the rest of his draft? In terms of overall scoring for his draft year (he's 17th out of his draft class, even playing in this cesspit)? Games played (6th)? Unfulfilled expectations of someone who was billed as a workmanlike likely winger who would do dirty jobs to help a team win?

I'd say center. Guy is damaged goods now and can only play the new suppression role on the forth because we can't find another use for him. I had higher expectations for him because he was trending upwards early on in his career and since the tank he's been getting worse.

 

[Chainshot]

Bust
BUST

BUUUUUST

I'm more of a leg man myself. Everyone has their preferences.

 

[Chainshot]

I'd say center. Guy is damaged goods now and can only play the new suppression role on the forth because we can't find another use for him. I had higher expectations for him because he was trending upwards early on in his career and since the tank he's been getting worse.

I don't agree. He's not a 4th liner even using the Sabres ToI -- he's a third liner -- and if by worse you mean in terms of offensive production, sure and that's something where he certainly could be a more useful player. That said, he's getting 85% d-zone starts and still manages to have positive shot suppression metrics. That's actually impressive.

 

[UnleashRasmus]

I don't see Montour and Bogo playing the same role at all. Montour doesn't bring a heavy game at all.

I meant moving Ristolainen since Montour is rostered.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

We can list all the guys who should exit the roster all we like.
(My short list.... Pominville, Okposo, Sheary, Sobatka, Bogo, Scandella, Hunwick, Nelson, either Hutton or Ullmark)

But if no one better is found to replace them, fill their supposed roles, then they'll be staying.

It's not necessarily a direct correlation on a player per player basis.

 

[zuikan]

The more pressing issue is convincing some dinosaur GM to buy a shiny, new Sobotka for just one easy payment of a 6th round pick. That’s the type of player who’s clearly below replacement level that Buffalo can and should dump ASAP.

you'd have trouble convincing one to take Sobotka with even sending them a 6th. maybe a 3rd would work. i doubt it. and Bogo is ok but a huge waste of money also.

 

[TheMistyStranger]

I'm more of a leg man myself. Everyone has their preferences.

Does 'leg' include a particularly notable posterior feature? If so, I'm on board with this.

 

[Snippit]

I think we bring up Borgen and replace Bogo.

Sabres have 3 skilled puck moving/mobile defenders in Dahlin/Montour/Pilut. I think they all need a defenseman that's responsible in their own end to be paired with.

Dahlin-X
X-Montour
Pilut-Borgen
Nelson

Borgen fills one of those 3 spots, but I think we should look at adding a partner for both Dahlin and Montour.

Is Jake McCabe one of those guys? Eh probably not, but we probably need to add 2 forwards at least, so acquiring 2 top 4D seems unlikely. So stick McCabe with Montour, and go and find a partner for Dahlin.

 

[Icicle]

Dahlin-Montour
Pilut-Risto
McCabe-Borgen
Nelson/Hunwick

Trade Scandella/Bogo for a bag of pucks if you can’t fix whatever was wrong with Scandella last season. Waive Nelson/Hunwick if you need to, don’t fret if you lose either

If you trade Risto, get a rookie defender as a part of the package.


Our defense is in pretty decent shape going forward. Not a part of the roster to worry about.

 

[Jame]

I think we bring up Borgen and replace Bogo.

Sabres have 3 skilled puck moving/mobile defenders in Dahlin/Montour/Pilut. I think they all need a defenseman that's responsible in their own end to be paired with.

Dahlin-X
X-Montour
Pilut-Borgen
Nelson

Borgen fills one of those 3 spots, but I think we should look at adding a partner for both Dahlin and Montour.

Is Jake McCabe one of those guys? Eh probably not, but we probably need to add 2 forwards at least, so acquiring 2 top 4D seems unlikely. So stick McCabe with Montour, and go and find a partner for Dahlin.

Playing Borgen on the 3rd pair, doesn’t replace Bogo...

We’ve made it through all but the last year of Bogo’s contract... unless we are making major moves and need cap space, we may as well just ride out the last year of Bogo’s contract and ship him for a pick at the next deadline.

We don’t need to rush Borgen...

 

[Snippit]

Playing Borgen on the 3rd pair, doesn’t replace Bogo...

We’ve made it through all but the last year of Bogo’s contract... unless we are making major moves and need cap space, we may as well just ride out the last year of Bogo’s contract and ship him for a pick at the next deadline.

We don’t need to rush Borgen...

I think Borgen is an upgrade on Bogo, not replacing him just for the sake of it

 

[Jame]

I think Borgen is an upgrade on Bogo, not replacing him just for the sake of it

They player we draft #7 overall will be an upgrade on Sobotka... doesn’t mean we rush that player to the NHL.

Borgen should continue developing in Rochester... he comes up when it’s obvious.

 

[DatGuy]

I would love to know how many players have excelled once they left / traded from the sabres and how many have had their carriers destroyed after they came here.

Far to many times this has happened in recent years. Stats don’t tell the whole store when players dip like they do in this organization.

Just my perception anyways, I could be wrong.

 

[Dreakon13]

I would love to know how many players have excelled once they left / traded from the sabres and how many have had their carriers destroyed after they came here.

You're not wrong... but I dunno why you'd love to know that. The answer is roughly "all of them".

 

[Husko]

I really hate the way the local media seems to be demanding we ship out Girgensons and Larsson. Call me crazy, but I’m in favor of not parting ways with 2 of the only players on the team that actually did their job this season.

 

[VaporTrail]

Maybe I’m in the minority here - I don’t hate one more year of Bogosian as a 5/6, physical RHD.

For starters, he’s one of the only players willing to fight and stand up for teammates on a team sorely lacking cojones.

His Fancy Stats aren’t terrible for what he is, and even better if he’s in the aforementioned appropriate role (bottom pair, #2 PK, physical presence who can move the puck decently).

You could do much worse than him, assuming some combination of Montour, Ristolainen and a hypothetical new Top 4 RHD (if Risto gets shipped out) are occupying the right side on our top two pairings.

If Zach can stay relatively healthy (key word “relatively” ... 65 games or so) and keep his... nose clean... I see no issue with keeping him for his last year.

Borgen and Nelson are also viable RHD replacement options for when he inevitably goes down for a week or two as well.

The more pressing issue is convincing some dinosaur GM to buy a shiny, new Sobotka for just one easy payment of a 6th round pick. That’s the type of player who’s clearly below replacement level that Buffalo can and should dump ASAP.

I know it would never happen...But nothing would make me more happy than Sobotka being demoted to the ECHL.

 

[5 Minute Major]

I'm more of a leg man myself. Everyone has their preferences.

 

[VaporTrail]

The stats say otherwise. In six years with St. Louis he was a .4 ppg player with a +12 +/- rating. Not bad, and much, much better than less than .2 ppg, -20 +/- with the Sabres. Housley killed his play.

He wasn't great his last year with the Blues but he scored at over twice the rate he did in Buffalo.

After the Blues traded the Dynamic Duo (Sobotka and Berglund) I remember Blue's fans being ecstatic over getting rid of them...They were saying that most likey they would have been fourth liners or even more likely sitting...To this day I still can't figure out why so many Sabres fans were so excited after getting these two...Heck, I remember fans making up lineups before the season started with these two on the top two lines lolololol....Shiney new toy syndrome I think...It's bad when the fans get it but even worse when a GM and coach both get it too.