The Athletic Vogl - Who Stays, Who Goes

Chainshot

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More of the usual from the Buffalo press. The one item I found interesting and troubling...

Zach Bogosian: He’s one of Eichel’s best friends. The Sabres think highly of their alternate captain. He’s one of the few players willing to show muscle or block shots. His analytics were decent, including a 48.5 Corsi while starting in the offensive zone 47.5 percent of the time.
But he’s entering the final year of his contract. Murray used to love acquiring guys like that so he could flip them at the deadline or clear space for the next season. Another GM could be similarly enticed.

Well so much for getting out from under that injured pile of ballast.
 

joshjull

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More of the usual from the Buffalo press. The one item I found interesting and troubling...



Well so much for getting out from under that injured pile of ballast.

I’d add to this that Jack mentioned he leaned heavily on Bogo and Okposo during the season for support and advice.
 

Irving Zisman

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Nov 5, 2007
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More of the usual from the Buffalo press. The one item I found interesting and troubling...



Well so much for getting out from under that injured pile of ballast.


Maybe I’m in the minority here - I don’t hate one more year of Bogosian as a 5/6, physical RHD.

For starters, he’s one of the only players willing to fight and stand up for teammates on a team sorely lacking cojones.

His Fancy Stats aren’t terrible for what he is, and even better if he’s in the aforementioned appropriate role (bottom pair, #2 PK, physical presence who can move the puck decently).

You could do much worse than him, assuming some combination of Montour, Ristolainen and a hypothetical new Top 4 RHD (if Risto gets shipped out) are occupying the right side on our top two pairings.

If Zach can stay relatively healthy (key word “relatively” ... 65 games or so) and keep his... nose clean... I see no issue with keeping him for his last year.

Borgen and Nelson are also viable RHD replacement options for when he inevitably goes down for a week or two as well.

The more pressing issue is convincing some dinosaur GM to buy a shiny, new Sobotka for just one easy payment of a 6th round pick. That’s the type of player who’s clearly below replacement level that Buffalo can and should dump ASAP.
 

Chainshot

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Maybe I’m in the minority here - I don’t hate one more year of Bogosian as a 5/6, physical RHD.

For starters, he’s one of the only players willing to fight and stand up for teammates on a team sorely lacking cojones.

His Fancy Stats aren’t terrible for what he is, and even better if he’s in the aforementioned appropriate role (bottom pair, #2 PK, physical presence who can move the puck decently).

You could do much worse than him, assuming some combination of Montour, Ristolainen and a hypothetical new Top 4 RHD (if Risto gets shipped out) are occupying the right side on our top two pairings.

If Zach can stay relatively healthy (key word “relatively” ... 65 games or so) and keep his... nose clean... I see no issue with keeping him for his last year.

Borgen and Nelson are also viable RHD replacement options for when he inevitably goes down for a week or two as well.

The more pressing issue is convincing some dinosaur GM to buy a shiny, new Sobotka for just one easy payment of a 6th round pick. That’s the type of player who’s clearly below replacement level that Buffalo can and should dump ASAP.

For his use with Dahlin in lower quality of competition minutes and heavier offensive zone use, his numbers relative to his salary are turd-worthy.

Moving Sobotka shouldn't be too much of an issue -- offer him around for minimal return and if there are no takers, waive him so he can take his puck back to the KHL. Even stat guys like Yost think there will be a market for Sobotka
 

joshjull

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Maybe I’m in the minority here - I don’t hate one more year of Bogosian as a 5/6, physical RHD.

For starters, he’s one of the only players willing to fight and stand up for teammates on a team sorely lacking cojones.

His Fancy Stats aren’t terrible for what he is, and even better if he’s in the aforementioned appropriate role (bottom pair, #2 PK, physical presence who can move the puck decently).

You could do much worse than him, assuming some combination of Montour, Ristolainen and a hypothetical new Top 4 RHD (if Risto gets shipped out) are occupying the right side on our top two pairings.

If Zach can stay relatively healthy (key word “relatively” ... 65 games or so) and keep his... nose clean... I see no issue with keeping him for his last year.

Borgen and Nelson are also viable RHD replacement options for when he inevitably goes down for a week or two as well.

The more pressing issue is convincing some dinosaur GM to buy a shiny, new Sobotka for just one easy payment of a 6th round pick. That’s the type of player who’s clearly below replacement level that Buffalo can and should dump ASAP.

I actually think Sobotka is salvageable with a new coach and proper use. Not adverse to getting rid of him and would prefer that. But I think Housley’s use of him was ridiculous and a smarter coach would get more out of him.
 

kirby11

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What’s wrong with one more year of Bogosian in a bottom pair role?

If we’re asking him to fill a Top 4 role again than yes, I agree with you.

Yeah, I worry they start the year like this (assuming risto is kept):

Risto-Dahlin
Bogo-Montour
Pilut-McCabe

I'd rather they staple Pilut to Risto and maybe try splitting Dahlin/Montour so each pair has a dynamic puck mover
 
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Irving Zisman

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For his use with Dahlin in lower quality of competition minutes and heavier offensive zone use, his numbers relative to his salary are turd-worthy.

Moving Sobotka shouldn't be too much of an issue -- offer him around for minimal return and if there are no takers, waive him so he can take his puck back to the KHL. Even stat guys like Jost think there will be a market for Sobotka

I won’t argue with your first point. I guess what I’m thinkis is limited minutes (16-18 with some PK duties) on the bottom pairing, given the other intangibles and physical presence he brings, is way down on the priority list of roster problems.

I also think if they somehow get into aggressive FA activity and need cap space, JB can simply “Toni Lydman” him to one of a dozen teams for a mid pick. To me, his salary isn’t much of an issue before the Dahlin’s and Reinhart’s of the world need their next contract.
 
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Chainshot

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I won’t argue with your first point. I guess what I’m thinkis is limited minutes (16-18 with some PK duties) on the bottom pairing, given the other intangibles and physical presence he brings, is way down on the priority list of roster problems.

I also think if they somehow get into aggressive FA activity and need cap space, JB can simply “Toni Lydman” him to one of a dozen teams for a mid pick. To me, his salary isn’t much of an issue before the Dahlin’s and Reinhart’s of the world need their next contract.

Perhaps. I'm not keen on spending over $5 million on him to play a role he's not shown to be good at. I like that he's one of the few physical players on the team but at the same time, his inconsistent presence in the lineup combined with his regular gaffs... the place to find replacement cap space is in finding a new home for Broke. I actually hope he Lydman's him out of town. Hating on Risto is easy, but I loathe Bogosian's game even more.
 
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brian_griffin

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May 10, 2007
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What’s wrong with one more year of Bogosian in a bottom pair role?

If we’re asking him to fill a Top 4 role again than yes, I agree with you.
Fully agree. RHD depth:
Montour
Risto
Bogo
Borgen
Keeps Nelson down.

Risto gets traded, I can't see moving Bogo, too.

Yeah, I worry they start the year like this (assuming risto is kept):

Risto-Dahlin
Bogo-Montour
Pilut-McCabe

I'd rather they staple Pilut to Risto and maybe try splitting Dahlin/Montour so each pair has a dynamic puck mover
Dahlin-Montour
Pilut-Risto
McCabe-Bogo/Borgen

Or pair Borgen with Dahlin if Borgen is ready.
 

joshjull

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I also question John's assessment that Pominville was effective away from Eichel.
An analytics guys I follow is a big proponent of this idea. I think it basically falls into the doesn’t t hurt you away from Jack category. Whereas others get caved in. Which on this team is a relative good even though its sad all the same. Like cool he doesn’t get destroyed.
 

Chainshot

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An analytics guys I follow is a big proponent of this idea. I think it basically falls into the doesn’t t hurt you away from Jack category. Whereas others get caved in. Which on this team is a relative good even though its sad all the same. Like cool he doesn’t get destroyed.

I guess we have to celebrate basic competence now.

What is the price for Pominville as vet filler? $1.5M?
 

Chainshot

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Probably somewhere in that area. I’m not for or against it. Honestly haven’t thought much about it with the possibility of bigger names moving on.

It's that he didn't have value as a PKer any longer, was part of an ineffective 2nd PP unit, and in terms of offensive production got very little done away from Jack. I was a huge Poms fan back in the day, but he's not good. Maybe he's better than the dross on either wing but... there is so little he offers in terms of flexibility, impact or speed. Ugh.

I suppose it depends on the number but I'd rather he ride off into the sunset and not return at all.
 

joshjull

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It's that he didn't have value as a PKer any longer, was part of an ineffective 2nd PP unit, and in terms of offensive production got very little done away from Jack. I was a huge Poms fan back in the day, but he's not good. Maybe he's better than the dross on either wing but... there is so little he offers in terms of flexibility, impact or speed. Ugh.

I suppose it depends on the number but I'd rather he ride off into the sunset and not return at all.
I’m not sure how likely it is he returns. Even he realizes he’s very low on the things to address list for Botts.
 

joshjull

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Categories in the article and players in them.

The core or players who won’t likely be going anywhere -> Jack, Dahlin, Sam, Mitts, Montour, Olofsson, Pilut, Tage, Borgen and Hutton

Up in the air -> Skinner, Risto, Pommer, Scandella and Nylander

Probably back -> Bogo, Nelson, CJ Smith, Hunwick, McCabe, Erod, Ullmark and Wilson

No choice in matter -> Okposo

Say goodbye -> Moulson, Sobotka, O’Regan, Tennyson

Pick one or none -> Girgs, Larsson and Elie
 
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GellMann

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Pominville does have the ability to survive, but we need guys with the ability to drive possession hockey away from Jack, to be the generators AND finishers of chances, and Pominville is the "makes the right decision and flips the puck in when he's closed in on in the NZ, where other players in that spot may not have been as smart but also wouldn't have been there in the first place because they have a much better ability to make/use space effectively because their legs haven't deteriorated yet" guy
 

joshjull

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I don’t know why you only quoted part of my post and ignored the part where I said my preference was to get rid of him. But he was used in a role he never played before, got buried in it and the coach kept trotting him out there to get clobbered.
 

UnleashRasmus

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Keeping Bogosian is fine in my camp. For the first time since he was acquired he showed what he could do "if" he could stay healthy. Which was be efficient in the defensive zone and do enough offensively to be semi productive as a mid pair defensemen. Scandella should be dealt over him, if there is any justice. I'm still in the camp that would prefer to keep Ristolainen, but if the package is too good to pass up, I also am fine moving him since Montour is now on our roster.
 
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Chainshot

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Keeping Bogosian is fine in my camp. For the first time since he was acquired he showed what he could do "if" he could stay healthy. Which was be efficient in the defensive zone and do enough offensively to be semi productive as a mid pair defensemen. Scandella should be dealt over him, if there is any justice. I'm still in the camp that would prefer to keep Ristolainen, but if the package is too good to pass up, I also am fine moving him since Montour is now on our roster.

If that's the bar to clear for a $5+ million dollar defensemen in this neighborhood, I think I should lace up my skates again. He was not efficient in the d-zone and his offensive production was remarkable for it's lack of impact given who he played with and when (and where).
 

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