Blue Jays Discussion: Vlad Jr wait/watch II: Watch Harder

Status
Not open for further replies.

metafour

Registered User
Apr 6, 2008
1,795
610
His numbers were pedestrian but there was a swagger he brought to the team and the clubhouse.

Swagger? The guy is one of the quietest/most boring players in the league LOL.

He stabilized a defensive hole on a team that otherwise was going to started turning elite offense into wins regardless. Thats it.
 

Mach85

Registered User
Mar 14, 2013
3,899
678
How can you assign all of this (or even any of this) to Tulowitzki when within a 3 day span they brought in him, Price, Lowe, and Revere. Why is it not any one of them that gets credit for all the intangible stuff? Why isn't it all of them as a unit. Why isn't it something else that was said and done.

The fact is that we don't know if any one thing set the team off on their magical run to end the season, a combination of innumerable other things, or nothing at all and just a good old fashioned hot streak that happens from time to time. I don't even recall the players themselves ever saying specifically that Tulowitzki pushed them to new levels or anything like that. The whole "it's all on Tulo" is 100% a media-driven narrative because Sportsnet started putting up one of those "since this date" arbitrary splits trackers that they timed to the day the trade for him was made. That and the fact that Tulo was still regarded as a high end brand-name player meant that people scrambled for intangible/narrative-focused ways to elevate his being on the team since they clearly couldn't do so with his performance.

Also nice job with the pointless "spreadsheet" digs. And the backfiring Santa Claus analogy too, since the whole point you're trying to make there is undermined by the fact that Santa Claus isn't real (and neither is this idea that Tulo is singularly responsible for a significant part of the team's run to the playoffs)
Even if it were a real thing, and I'm not sure how we'll ever quantify it so we'll probably never know, I don't know how anyone could argue that focus/confidence/adrenaline (or whatever other proposed mechanisms would contribute to the effect) would account for a uniform (i.e., across all individuals of a team), consistent, and significant effect that could turn a team's fortunes around or make them a much better team than they would be otherwise. These are professionals who do something at a level that few can do, and they operate at a very high level even when they're not at their best. I think it would be not implausible to say that it could lead to a couple extra hits from one or two guys, or a couple more "hustle" plays, but nothing that anyone can point at and say "THAT'S a big reason that this team when on a winning streak."
 

Cor

I am a bot
Jun 24, 2012
69,648
35,246
AEF
I love Stroman. I find the whining about his tweets way more unbearable.

Agreed.

If by great, you mean expecting a personal phone call about things that don’t involve him and when he doesn’t get that complaining publicly and acting like he’s the franchise while not preforming well whatsoever.
 

The Nemesis

Semper Tyrannus
Apr 11, 2005
88,337
31,709
Langley, BC


I really hope we trade Stroman. He’s unbearable.


I've disliked some of the sillier/pettier/chip-on-your-shoulder-ier things that Stroman has said on Twitter, but I don't see the problem here. Silly as it is, a lot of people only consume news and information through social media now. The best you can do to make this into another "Dumb Stroman thing" is to argue that this is stealth shade at management for not telling him they were releasing Tulo. But a) Tulo isn't his buddy like Ryan Goins was and b) that's quite a stretch to even begin assuming, let alone basing a reaction around.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Anthrax442

ryno23

Registered User
Feb 5, 2010
5,466
1,878
How can you assign all of this (or even any of this) to Tulowitzki when within a 3 day span they brought in him, Price, Lowe, and Revere. Why is it not any one of them that gets credit for all the intangible stuff? Why isn't it all of them as a unit. Why isn't it something else that was said and done.

The fact is that we don't know if any one thing set the team off on their magical run to end the season, a combination of innumerable other things, or nothing at all and just a good old fashioned hot streak that happens from time to time. I don't even recall the players themselves ever saying specifically that Tulowitzki pushed them to new levels or anything like that. The whole "it's all on Tulo" is 100% a media-driven narrative because Sportsnet started putting up one of those "since this date" arbitrary splits trackers that they timed to the day the trade for him was made. That and the fact that Tulo was still regarded as a high end brand-name player meant that people scrambled for intangible/narrative-focused ways to elevate his being on the team since they clearly couldn't do so with his performance.

Also nice job with the pointless "spreadsheet" digs. And the backfiring Santa Claus analogy too, since the whole point you're trying to make there is undermined by the fact that Santa Claus isn't real (and neither is this idea that Tulo is singularly responsible for a significant part of the team's run to the playoffs)

Wasn't asked about Price, Revere or Lowe. I can see Price bringing that same swagger to the table as Tulo did. His presence in that rotation gave everyone a little boost and the hitters knew they didn't have to score 7 to win as Price would hold them down. Guys were able to swing a little freer.

It wasn't a dig on the spreadsheets as it was more of somethings can't be explain by crunching numbers on a spreadsheet. I know quite a few pro athletes some current ones and some that are retired and I deal with them every day in my job and talk to them about analytics and intangibles and they all same the same thing. Intangibles will never been know by a regular fan unless they are part of the clubhouse and see the daily lives of those players and how the interactions happen how some players guys just gravitate towards and follow them. Some guys come into a dressing room and now guys walk a little taller or work a little harder as to not look bad to a new star coming into their room or they follow the lead of that new star in the weight room, off ice drills, off field drills, eating right all that stuff.

My friend played with Doug Gilmour, Shea Webber and tells us stories about how they lead a team and the stuff you can't put on paper made a huge difference to their group. I got countless stories from my members about this same stuff.

So while you criticize MSM for pushing a narrative, the narrative usually brought on by media working the clubhouse and talking to the players or talking to retired players and getting stories about what so and so meant to a team or group. These things have been happening in pro sports way before Bill James put pencil to paper to try and explain the complex game of baseball.

Again the mental side of the game is as big if not bigger than any stat you can put out there advance stats are just stats manipulated to create their own agenda to disprove a point or validate a point. They are manipulated by the compiler to feed their own narrative. So advance people are doing the same as MSM has done for year. Only difference is numbers are attached to these points vs using athletes stories, experiences and what they saw in the clubhouse or on the field.

Regardless of what numbers people say these things exist in sports as long as it is played by human beings.
 

Cor

I am a bot
Jun 24, 2012
69,648
35,246
AEF
I've disliked some of the sillier/pettier/chip-on-your-shoulder-ier things that Stroman has said on Twitter, but I don't see the problem here. Silly as it is, a lot of people only consume news and information through social media now. The best you can do to make this into another "Dumb Stroman thing" is to argue that this is stealth shade at management for not telling him they were releasing Tulo. But a) Tulo isn't his buddy like Ryan Goins was and b) that's quite a stretch to even begin assuming, let alone basing a reaction around.

Nem dude. This was tweeted immediately after his tweet about Tulo.

This wasn’t him randomly giving legit props to Twitter :laugh:
 

Deebo

Registered User
Jan 28, 2005
8,329
1,822
Toronto
Agreed.

If by great, you mean expecting a personal phone call about things that don’t involve him and when he doesn’t get that complaining publicly and acting like he’s the franchise while not preforming well whatsoever.

I didn't say he was great. I said I love him and I find whining about innocuous tweets more unbearable than the actual innocuous tweets.

And he has performed pretty well when healthy, top 20 in fWAR among qualified pitchers in the Majors in both 2016 and 2017.

But if the tweets bother you, that's fine I guess. I find it very difficult to care about that stuff though. I'll save my disdain for people like Osuna.
 

Discoverer

Registered User
Apr 11, 2012
10,832
6,004
Nah. Worst case is that they can't move Martin but he's still actually useful as a mentor/instructor for Jansen (and McGuire if he stays on the roster in that case) and maybe they find a way to use Martin as a utility guy. Best case is that there's still a market out there for him in spite of his salary because it's just 1 more season and even with how underwhelming his offensive numbers tend to look, the catcher position is such an offensive wasteland that it's actually quite good, relatively speaking.

Yeah, if they eat money on Martin's deal it's because they want something in return. They won't pay him to go away.
 

hockeywiz542

Registered User
May 26, 2008
15,920
4,990
Why the Toronto Blue Jays released Troy Tulowitzki - Sportsnet.ca
LAS VEGAS – Consider the $38-million price tag on the release of Troy Tulowitzki the final bill for punting Jose Reyes midway through the 2015 season, when the need to pay out a shortstop who no longer fit the roster was punted a few years down the road.

The Toronto Blue Jays could have taken the financial hit then, run with Ryan Goins at shortstop and diverted their resources elsewhere but then-GM Alex Anthopoulos instead made a bold play for the longtime Colorado Rockies star.

Essentially, the math worked like this: the money was essentially even in ’15, but the Blue Jays took on the $98 million owed to Tulowitzki rather than eating the $48 million due Reyes in 2016-17 plus a buyout on his 2018 club option. So for $50 million, they got Tulowitzki and reliever LaTroy Hawkins for Reyes and prospects Jeff Hoffman, Jesus Tinoco and Miguel Castro.
“For us it’s roster flexibility,” Atkins said inside the Blue Jays suite at the winter meetings. “And for both it’s the ability to be more proactive and responsive to the potential of not having that flexibility and Troy being on our roster and potentially not playing on a regular basis. I don’t want to characterize or misrepresent Troy, but having the ability to be proactive was seemingly powerful for them.”
 

Leafsfan74

Registered User
Jul 2, 2018
4,980
5,194
I have to say, I don't understand this situation. Blue Jays management is known to be some of the worst in baseball, their training staff even worse.

He's an All-Star shortstop, you paid him big money, he should at least get a chance to earn his position as he went down with an injury. If after a couple of months, release him. It's the same outcome but at least you get to see if he would be able to produce or not. Asking him to move is premature when he lost so much time due to the injury. If he was not going to play, sit him out the year. It's a tougher situation if he absolutely wasn't going to come back, but he wasn't, let the insurance pay his contract then.

What do the Jays get in return for letting him go? Do fans who bought his Jersey and who might like him want to come to the ballpark? Surely his replacement could DH or play another position and let Tulo succeed or fail at shortstop being this decision.

I like Anthopolous, I don't understand why they couldn't let him finish the job, he had the balls to make the big splash when it was needed and had back to back Final Fours. The players liked him and succeeded under him.

Jays have poor ownership and the league knows it. Sorry.
 

Suntouchable13

Registered User
Dec 20, 2003
43,454
18,877
Toronto, ON
Wow, I am surprised they are willing to eat this much money. I guess they would be eating it regardless because Tulo would have been missed more games than played in anyway.
 

TheBeastCoast

Registered User
Mar 23, 2011
31,411
31,682
Dartmouth,NS
I've disliked some of the sillier/pettier/chip-on-your-shoulder-ier things that Stroman has said on Twitter, but I don't see the problem here. Silly as it is, a lot of people only consume news and information through social media now. The best you can do to make this into another "Dumb Stroman thing" is to argue that this is stealth shade at management for not telling him they were releasing Tulo. But a) Tulo isn't his buddy like Ryan Goins was and b) that's quite a stretch to even begin assuming, let alone basing a reaction around.
It is 100% about Tulo being released though. That tweet came about 30 seconds after a tweet saying goodbye to Tulo.
 

topched

Registered User
Nov 19, 2008
7,851
115
Toronto, Ontario
I have to say, I don't understand this situation. Blue Jays management is known to be some of the worst in baseball, their training staff even worse.

He's an All-Star shortstop, you paid him big money, he should at least get a chance to earn his position as he went down with an injury. If after a couple of months, release him. It's the same outcome but at least you get to see if he would be able to produce or not. Asking him to move is premature when he lost so much time due to the injury. If he was not going to play, sit him out the year. It's a tougher situation if he absolutely wasn't going to come back, but he wasn't, let the insurance pay his contract then.

What do the Jays get in return for letting him go? Do fans who bought his Jersey and who might like him want to come to the ballpark? Surely his replacement could DH or play another position and let Tulo succeed or fail at shortstop being this decision.

I like Anthopolous, I don't understand why they couldn't let him finish the job, he had the balls to make the big splash when it was needed and had back to back Final Fours. The players liked him and succeeded under him.

Jays have poor ownership and the league knows it. Sorry.

Man Jays fans literally need to get over this.

I can sum up this section of the fan base by taking your opening statement and closing argument verbatim. Jays current management sucks, AA was better, Rogers sucks.

In reality, as active as AA was people forgive his first 4 seasons as a GM where the team was awful in favour of remembering him being the builder of 1 playoff team. What his moves did was also close the window for the team. Whether it was him or Atkins, this rebuild was a forgone conclusion. To blame Atkins and Shapiro is kind of a “I need to blame someone for the losing” take.

When the Tulo deal happened, when the Martin deal was signed, when the JD deal was made, everyone agreed, these are win now moves. Back to back ALCS, to a degree it worked.

We now have the guys who are responsible for most of the Indians success the last few years, and we need to be patient and let them work. The Tulo move is another in what is going to be a long list over the next year or two in an attempt to reopen the competitive window
 

TheBeastCoast

Registered User
Mar 23, 2011
31,411
31,682
Dartmouth,NS
I didn't say he was great. I said I love him and I find whining about innocuous tweets more unbearable than the actual innocuous tweets.

And he has performed pretty well when healthy, top 20 in fWAR among qualified pitchers in the Majors in both 2016 and 2017.

But if the tweets bother you, that's fine I guess. I find it very difficult to care about that stuff though. I'll save my disdain for people like Osuna.
I don't really care about 99% of his tweets but him thinking he is important enough that he should be consulted on team decisions? Yeah that just makes him look like a moron, and he probably should not tweet about that.
 

hockeywiz542

Registered User
May 26, 2008
15,920
4,990
Toronto Blue Jays General Manger Ross Atkins spoke to media at the MLB Wineter Meetings following the release of SS Troy Tulowitzki.

 

The Nemesis

Semper Tyrannus
Apr 11, 2005
88,337
31,709
Langley, BC
It is 100% about Tulo being released though. That tweet came about 30 seconds after a tweet saying goodbye to Tulo.

That woudl've been good context to have. I haven't read Stroman's twitter feed, and all I had to go on was that solitary tweet posted here with the reactionary comments. I was wrong and Stroman is kind of being a passive-aggressive dick about it then. It's probably still not in the top few most boneheaded things he's ever done, and isn't enough for me to get worked up past being amused by his pettiness.
 

barilko05

NHL FAN
Jan 28, 2011
1,123
860
N
I have to say, I don't understand this situation. Blue Jays management is known to be some of the worst in baseball, their training staff even worse.

He's an All-Star shortstop, you paid him big money, he should at least get a chance to earn his position as he went down with an injury. If after a couple of months, release him. It's the same outcome but at least you get to see if he would be able to produce or not. Asking him to move is premature when he lost so much time due to the injury. If he was not going to play, sit him out the year. It's a tougher situation if he absolutely wasn't going to come back, but he wasn't, let the insurance pay his contract then.

What do the Jays get in return for letting him go? Do fans who bought his Jersey and who might like him want to come to the ballpark? Surely his replacement could DH or play another position and let Tulo succeed or fail at shortstop being this decision.

I like Anthopolous, I don't understand why they couldn't let him finish the job, he had the balls to make the big splash when it was needed and had back to back Final Fours. The players liked him and succeeded under him.

Jays have poor ownership and the league knows it. Sorry.

1) Your opinion...not shared by the majority of baseball...and you know it.
2) Not for a long time has he been even close to that.
3) He whined that if he didn't get his way (regardless of how he may have played) he'd sulk until he got what he wanted.
4) I'm gonna guess those 3...ok, maybe 4...people will get over it and will be easily replaced by real fans who come to see a talented, emerging superstar like Vlad. Not an old, overpaid broken down whiner who can't see the end of the road.
5) It wasn't going to matter if he wasn't good enough...if he wasn't handed the job, he was not going to be happy.
6) I like AA as well, but his big splashes were a) a disaster (Florida trade) and b) a last desperate attempt that did get us to the playoffs, but cost us a lot of farm capital. It was short term roll of the dice that ultimately worked...sort of. We didn't get back to the Series (the ultimate goal) and the 2016 team only got there through guts, not talent. And he was gone by that point anyway, leaving a tear down and rebuild as someone else's problems.
7) Again...your opinion and not even close to the truth.

Sorry.
 

TheBeastCoast

Registered User
Mar 23, 2011
31,411
31,682
Dartmouth,NS
That woudl've been good context to have. I haven't read Stroman's twitter feed, and all I had to go on was that solitary tweet posted here with the reactionary comments. I was wrong and Stroman is kind of being a passive-aggressive dick about it then. It's probably still not in the top few most boneheaded things he's ever done, and isn't enough for me to get worked up past being amused by his pettiness.
I wouldn't say I think it is a big deal either aside from making Stroman look like a bit of a tool....which is fine I don't really care if I personally like the players as long as they perform on the field. I do also kind of look forward to the twitter rant in the event he gets traded from the Jays.
 

hockeywiz542

Registered User
May 26, 2008
15,920
4,990
Shi Davidi, Jeff Blair, and Jamie Campbell discuss the decision by the Toronto Blue Jays to release short stop Troy Tulowitzki.

 

TF97

Registered User
Jul 4, 2010
12,291
478
Halifax, NS
This was the right move to make, Tulowitzki and his .250/.313/.414 batting line as a Blue Jay was not cutting it. Combine that with the drama that would ensue in Spring Training when Gurriel (or someone else) wins the starting shortstop position over Tulowitzki. The release works for both sides - Toronto gets the roster flexibility mentioned by Atkins and avoids the potential headache that would be Spring Training and then Tulowitzki gets the opportunity to prove he can still be an impact player on a new team that will likely have more of an opportunity for him. Combined with the fact that he will only require a league-minimum salary, I am sure that Tulowitzki will have multiple opportunities available to him.

I wanted nothing more than for Tulowitzki to get healthy and be an impact player again, but as Atkins said, I do not think it is likely. It is unfortunate to see a player of his caliber have his body break down, I wish him nothing but the best going forward. On another note, given that Diaz and now Tulowitzki have been moved out, combined with the human question mark that is Devon Travis, it could be a good time to take advantage of the crowded free agent infield market - especially at second base.

As for the Tulowitzki jersey that is currently hanging in my closet, I think it is an appropriate time to take a long look into the mirror and question my purchasing decisions.

EDIT:



So much for going home if he isn't a shortstop.
 
Last edited:

Deebo

Registered User
Jan 28, 2005
8,329
1,822
Toronto
I don't really care about 99% of his tweets but him thinking he is important enough that he should be consulted on team decisions? Yeah that just makes him look like a moron, and he probably should not tweet about that.

Sure, but hoping he gets traded over them?

I don't get that at all.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad