Blue Jays Discussion: Vlad Jr wait/watch II: Watch Harder

[The Nemesis]

A lot of talk about Harold Baines, any thoughts on Lee Smith? I know he put up massive save numbers, but I don't remember (and I admit, this is not the most scientific way to judge it) ever remember him being one of the "feared closers" of his era. The Hall of Fame debate for one-inning-closers has always been fascinating to me. My mind is still not settled on exactly how to judge those players.

Smith at least has uniqueness value of being the saves leader for a long time and having a bunch of pretty-good-for-a-reliever seasons. As Discoverer said, if you're evaluating on the basis of pitchers on the whole it's hard to make a case (except for maybe Rivera?), but if we look at relief pitchers as their own thing with their own separate bar, then perhaps it's fair to say that Smith is maybe suited to the HOF RP equivalent of one of those "you must be this tall to ride" signs. He doesn't have a great case, but he at least has a defensible, not entirely objectionable one if we consider that he is perhaps the bar you have to clear to gain entry.

Harold Baines is like the equivalent of a drunken bar bet among HOF committee members that went horribly, horribly wrong.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I disagree. Everyone knows the Jays are in the middle of a couple rebuild seasons. It would be perfectly reasonable for them to go into the season with a bunch of mediocre players and young kids and just see if anyone breaks out before making big moves to fill the holes the next couple years. There are plenty of directions they could go this offseason.

By cards I mean the roster/players. GMs and agents aren't stupid. They can see what we have and what we need. Projecting false confidence isn't going to amount to much at the negotiation table when it's so patently transparent. Sure they can go into the year with what they have, but that's not the point.

The point is making such bold pronouncements will have negligible influence on agents and GMs (who either won't buy it or won't care), and just sounds absurd to everyone else who hears it. He could have accomplished the former just as well by saying nothing and avoided the latter.

 

[AllDay28]

Why do people want things? Dont we wanna suck for a year more? Also what is there to even sign?

 

[Woodman19]

Why do people want things? Dont we wanna suck for a year more? Also what is there to even sign?

Not necessarily, tanking doesnt work in Baseball and we are transitioning to a younger team. Adding a few good veterans who can still contribute who can possibly be flipped later isn't the worst thing in the world.

 

[Discoverer]

By cards I mean the roster/players. GMs and agents aren't stupid. They can see what we have and what we need. Projecting false confidence isn't going to amount to much at the negotiation table when it's so patently transparent. Sure they can go into the year with what they have, but that's not the point.

The point is making such bold pronouncements will have negligible influence on agents and GMs (who either won't buy it or won't care), and just sounds absurd to everyone else who hears it. He could have accomplished the former just as well by saying nothing and avoided the latter.

They have four catchers, too many 1B/DH, a couple SS, a bunch of 2B/3B, four OF returning from last year, and a bunch of near-ready players at various positions in Buffalo. I guess I don't see what's so ridiculous about that quote.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

They have four catchers, too many 1B/DH, a couple SS, a bunch of 2B/3B, four OF returning from last year, and a bunch of near-ready players at various positions in Buffalo. I guess I don't see what's so ridiculous about that quote.

We have only 3 starters with major league experience; one coming off a rookie year and due to regress; two coming off down seasons/injury.

I'm dont actually mean the quote is absurd. The idea that GMs or agents would care is what's absurd. What the quote is is disheartening to fans. They're basically saying/not saying to fans that this team is not going to put out a high level product next year (hence the season ticket reference).

 

[AllDay28]

Not necessarily, tanking doesnt work in Baseball and we are transitioning to a younger team. Adding a few good veterans who can still contribute who can possibly be flipped later isn't the worst thing in the world.

tanking definitely works. If you have good scouts you can draft a very elite player at the top of the draft.

pretty sure Houston is what they are now from good IFA spending, scouting, and tanking..

 

[sessiroth]

tanking definitely works. If you have good scouts you can draft a very elite player at the top of the draft.

pretty sure Houston is what they are now from good IFA spending, scouting, and tanking..

I was about to say Houston, as well as the Cubs I believe.

 

[Eyedea]

Or you could be in a similar state as the white sox, marlins, padres, mets, or twins. Tanking doesn’t quite guarantee you sustainable success.

 

[canucksfan]

Why do people want things? Dont we wanna suck for a year more? Also what is there to even sign?

You try to field the best team possible. Overly optimistic view point but if the younger guys really step up and Sanchez and Stroman go back to their previous success then you might have a borderline wildcard team. I sincerely doubt that happens though but it’s not like Jays are in the O’s position.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I hope we spend on international players should they become available. Not necessarily Kikuchi who's slightly older relative to our competitive window, but someone. There's a really good Japanese shortstop Tetsuto who I don't know if he's being posted but he's the type of guy I'd like, or the pitcher Senga.

 

[Woodman19]

tanking definitely works. If you have good scouts you can draft a very elite player at the top of the draft.

pretty sure Houston is what they are now from good IFA spending, scouting, and tanking..

How many of the players they won with were acquired in that period and assuming we copy the model are you ok with sucking until 2023 to start winning again?

 

[Discoverer]

We have only 3 starters with major league experience; one coming off a rookie year and due to regress; two coming off down seasons/injury.

I'm dont actually mean the quote is absurd. The idea that GMs or agents would care is what's absurd. What the quote is is disheartening to fans. They're basically saying/not saying to fans that this team is not going to put out a high level product next year (hence the season ticket reference).

But... he specifically says he's referring to "outfielders, infielders, and catchers". That quote has nothing at all to do with pitchers because he and everyone else knows they need to add pitching.

Plus, he adds at the end that the current group of position players wouldn't be competitive enough. So I don't even really understand what people think he's trying to sell here.

 

[AllDay28]

How many of the players they won with were acquired in that period and assuming we copy the model are you ok with sucking until 2023 to start winning again?

I would very much like a Carlos Correa

 

[Discoverer]

I would very much like a Carlos Correa

You'll have to settle for a Vlad.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

But... he specifically says he's referring to "outfielders, infielders, and catchers". That quote has nothing at all to do with pitchers because he and everyone else knows they need to add pitching.

Plus, he adds at the end that the current group of position players wouldn't be competitive enough. So I don't even really understand what people think he's trying to sell here.

Ok, I think we need to back up the truck a bit as I find myself sucked into an argument I wasn't even making. The gist of my posting the article was that the comments don't exactly inspire fans to go out and buy season tickets to watch virtually the same team that finished with the 9th worst record. That was it. And it's hard to argue that's not the case whether or not what he's saying is true.

Is what he's saying true? Sure if we're only talking about position players. But here's the thing, pretty much every team (especially if they aren't intending to make the playoffs) can cobble together a team from just what's in the system. I generally have a rule, that if anyone or everyone can make the same statement, you're probably not saying anything useful; at best it's a cliche like "we always want to get better" or "we're being openminded" cause who couldn't say those things about their team.

You interpreted my statement as saying that he should be expressing our desperation and giving us poor negotiating power. That's not what I was suggesting at all. All I was saying, was its not exactly the type of comment fans want to hear when deciding to spend money, hence my sarcastic comment. He could have just said nothing or stuck to more innocuous cliches.

 

[Woodman19]

I prefer the Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers style rebuild. Use your financial muscle to still compete at the major league level by plugging holes with expensive declining players while you hoard your prospects and build up the development system.

 

[Discoverer]

Ok, I think we need to back up the truck a bit as I find myself sucked into an argument I wasn't even making. The gist of my posting the article was that the comments don't exactly inspire fans to go out and buy season tickets to watch virtually the same team that finished with the 9th worst record. That was it. And it's hard to argue that's not the case whether or not what he's saying is true.

Is what he's saying true? Sure if we're only talking about position players. But here's the thing, pretty much every team (especially if they aren't intending to make the playoffs) can cobble together a team from just what's in the system. I generally have a rule, that if anyone or everyone can make the same statement, you're probably not saying anything useful; at best it's a cliche like "we always want to get better" or "we're being openminded" cause who couldn't say those things about their team.

You interpreted my statement as saying that he should be expressing our desperation and giving us poor negotiating power. That's not what I was suggesting at all. All I was saying, was its not exactly the type of comment fans want to hear when deciding to spend money, hence my sarcastic comment. He could have just said nothing or stuck to more innocuous cliches.

I guess I just don't think these kinds of comments have any impact whatsoever on whether or not fans buy tickets. Does anyone actually make these kinds of decisions based on what the GM says in early December about what they may or may not do the rest of the offseason?

(I've also just never put much stock in this kind of stuff. Sports executives spend a ton of time talking to the media. They all say obvious/silly/unnecessary things all the time. I don't think it means anything.)

 

[Dr.Funk]

Harold f'n Baines is in the HOF? What in the blue hell?

 

[habamillions]

Mets/yanks/mets have discussed 3team trade where realmuto goes to mets. Wonder what the yanks would get for helping out those 2

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Mets/yanks/mets have discussed 3team trade where realmuto goes to mets. Wonder what the yanks would get for helping out those 2

Gotta be major league pitching. Mets have depth of it. Thor, Degrom, Matz, Wheeler, Lugo. I'll bet one adds Dom Smith at first as they both might have a need and he's blocked by Alonso.

 

[Jozay]

 

[phillipmike]

Only the Mets would trade Thor to the Yankees.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Haha, semi called it.

 

[habamillions]

f***. Anything but thor