Blue Jays Discussion: Vlad Jr wait/watch II: Watch Harder

[Jozay]

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[hockeywiz542]

Blue Jays' path to trading Stroman, Sanchez seems more tangible - Sportsnet.ca

What’s important to track, however, is how the discourse around a specific situation changes over time because shifts are telling. And the way the trade chatter around Marcus Stroman and Aaron Sanchez has evolved since the General Managers Meetings a month ago – when Ross Atkins unequivocally said “no one likes Marcus more than we do, we value him the most” – a deal for one of them, at least, suddenly seems a lot more tangible.

There’s no deal right now. But it sure sounds like there’s a path to get there.

One rival executive who has spoken with the Blue Jays doesn’t believe they’re actively shopping either starter but were actively listening, while another said he could easily see them trading away one of the right-handers this winter.

The challenge in any such trade is that the Blue Jays are already perilously thin in the rotation and that they don’t have a similarly high-ceilinged arm due to arrive imminently from the farm system. They could spend the next few years trying to replicate the kind of impact both have already delivered at the big-league level, which is why trying to extend them also makes sense.

• The Blue Jays have been drawing interest in their catching, including on Russell Martin, who’s due $20 million in 2019. A veteran rival executive believes Martin’s contract is movable because “he can still play and help somebody." The question is whether the Blue Jays will take back enough of the money.” After noting how much the Blue Jays like and appreciate the 36-year-old, Atkins added, “we would consider some opportunity if there was one to move him for talent that made sense for the organization.” The key term there is “for talent.” If the Blue Jays are going to eat a substantial amount of money, they want some level of prospect in return.

• A rival executive described Blue Jays closer Ken Giles as “available.” The hard-throwing right-hander went 14-for-14 in converting saves after coming over from Houston as part of the return for Roberto Osuna and has two years of control remaining. His market may not really develop until some of the free-agent relievers on the market start coming off the board.

 

[Garlando]

I hope we spend on international players should they become available. Not necessarily Kikuchi who's slightly older relative to our competitive window, but someone. There's a really good Japanese shortstop Tetsuto who I don't know if he's being posted but he's the type of guy I'd like, or the pitcher Senga.

I wrote up a piece recently on some guys that could come over from Japan and South Korea within the next few years:

Going Deep: Future MLB International Imports

Kikuchi would be a good add IMO if the Jays could sign him.

 

[BlueForever75]

I want the Jays to trade everyone not named Guerrero, Bichette, Biggio, Gurriel, Jansen, Tellez, Alford, Stroman, Sanchez, Borucki, SRF and Pearson. Everyone else is free game.

Trade away and better your roster for the future.

The only way I deal a Stroman or Sanchez is if the return is similar to the deal that TB made for Archer. I'm sorry but Archer is at par with both Stroman and Sanchez. He was a bust last season as well and still garnered the return he got for TB. If we cant then I would rather keep both of them.

 

[Deebo]

I want the Jays to trade everyone not named Guerrero, Bichette, Biggio, Gurriel, Jansen, Tellez, Alford, Stroman, Sanchez, Borucki, SRF and Pearson. Everyone else is free game.

Trade away and better your roster for the future.

The only way I deal a Stroman or Sanchez is if the return is similar to the deal that TB made for Archer. I'm sorry but Archer is at par with both Stroman and Sanchez. He was a bust last season as well and still garnered the return he got for TB. If we cant then I would rather keep both of them.

I'm not sure anyone else has enough value to bring in anything other than long shot prospects.

 

[BlueForever75]

I'm not sure anyone else has enough value to bring in anything other than long shot prospects.

Players like Smoak, Martin, Pillar, Travis, Giles should get you lower level propects individually in trades with some upside. Packaged together to the right team we might be able to get more promising ones.

 

[ryno23]

I would love to see the Jays use their financial clout and go back to being one of the big spenders in FA. The 2 World Series teams knew that and brought in guys like Winfield, Molitor, Morris were all brought in with big $$ to help win a World Series.

Thing is missing is Paul Beaston. He had the ability to go to the corporate owners and get what Gillick needed in terms of spending. Labbatts' and Imperial Bank both never hesitated to spend to win. Shapiro is just a corporate stooge.

Why not give Harper the deal he is looking for making him the highest paid player in MLB. Then go out and sign Dallas Keuchel. Find a taker for Martin which there is a market from the rumours out there. You only are left with Morales for a year and Tulo. Do a EE for Morales deal as Cle want to save money and they save about 8 million in the transaction.

Bring up Vlad and Bichette and let them learn at the MLB level.

So singing 2 big name FA could turn the outlook on this team pretty quick. Sure Rogers would have to open up the purse strings and be that owner many want them to be but christ that is a pretty good team that can compete for a WS. The lineup could put up some runs and the top 3 starters can all dominate if on form. Package up Pillar and Travis for some prospects or another SP and some bullpen help. Hernandez moves to the DH spot the following year to split with Tellez hopefully an Alford or someone is ready to move to the OF full time.

1. Gurriel JR - 2B
2.Harper RF
3. Vlad - 3B
4.Smoak 1B
5. EE DH
6. Bichette SS
7. Grichuk CF
8. Jansen C
9. Hernandez - LF

1. Stroman
2. Keuchel
3. Sanchez
4.Borukci
5. SRF

Giles - Closer
rest of bullpen as see fit.

Bench

Drury - UT
Reese McGuire - C
Mckinney - OF
Towlez - 1B

 

[BlueForever75]

I would love to see the Jays use their financial clout and go back to being one of the big spenders in FA. The 2 World Series teams knew that and brought in guys like Winfield, Molitor, Morris were all brought in with big $$ to help win a World Series.

Thing is missing is Paul Beaston. He had the ability to go to the corporate owners and get what Gillick needed in terms of spending. Labbatts' and Imperial Bank both never hesitated to spend to win. Shapiro is just a corporate stooge.

Why not give Harper the deal he is looking for making him the highest paid player in MLB. Then go out and sign Dallas Keuchel. Find a taker for Martin which there is a market from the rumours out there. You only are left with Morales for a year and Tulo. Do a EE for Morales deal as Cle want to save money and they save about 8 million in the transaction.

Bring up Vlad and Bichette and let them learn at the MLB level.

So singing 2 big name FA could turn the outlook on this team pretty quick. Sure Rogers would have to open up the purse strings and be that owner many want them to be but christ that is a pretty good team that can compete for a WS. The lineup could put up some runs and the top 3 starters can all dominate if on form. Package up Pillar and Travis for some prospects or another SP and some bullpen help. Hernandez moves to the DH spot the following year to split with Tellez hopefully an Alford or someone is ready to move to the OF full time.

1. Gurriel JR - 2B
2.Harper RF
3. Vlad - 3B
4.Smoak 1B
5. EE DH
6. Bichette SS
7. Grichuk CF
8. Jansen C
9. Hernandez - LF

1. Stroman
2. Keuchel
3. Sanchez
4.Borukci
5. SRF

Giles - Closer
rest of bullpen as see fit.

Bench

Drury - UT
Reese McGuire - C
Mckinney - OF
Towlez - 1B

Its too early for these type of deals. We all have to come to grips that the next couple of seasons will be all about signing low and trading high with FA. Like we did last season. Making some trades to acquire assets where we can. Once we have a foundation of youth playing everyday, and successfully....this is when you go out and make splashes.

Imagine if Guerrero, Bichette, Biggio, Jansen and Pearson all develop into what we want in 2 years. You hope players like Gurriel, Stroman and Sanchez get better. And players like Hernandez and Grichuk become consistent like a Smoak did for us, or turn into something like a Bautista and EE!!!!

That's when you go out and spend. Rogers has proven that they will spend when they need to. Now is not the time. Let them keep developing our own, acquire more youth to complement the core, and keep drafting well and signing international FAs. Once the time comes we will spend. There will be many Harpers or Keuchles coming in the next 2-3 years.

 

[Woodman19]

I would love to see the Jays use their financial clout and go back to being one of the big spenders in FA. The 2 World Series teams knew that and brought in guys like Winfield, Molitor, Morris were all brought in with big $$ to help win a World Series.

Thing is missing is Paul Beaston. He had the ability to go to the corporate owners and get what Gillick needed in terms of spending. Labbatts' and Imperial Bank both never hesitated to spend to win. Shapiro is just a corporate stooge.

Why not give Harper the deal he is looking for making him the highest paid player in MLB. Then go out and sign Dallas Keuchel. Find a taker for Martin which there is a market from the rumours out there. You only are left with Morales for a year and Tulo. Do a EE for Morales deal as Cle want to save money and they save about 8 million in the transaction.

Bring up Vlad and Bichette and let them learn at the MLB level.

So singing 2 big name FA could turn the outlook on this team pretty quick. Sure Rogers would have to open up the purse strings and be that owner many want them to be but christ that is a pretty good team that can compete for a WS. The lineup could put up some runs and the top 3 starters can all dominate if on form. Package up Pillar and Travis for some prospects or another SP and some bullpen help. Hernandez moves to the DH spot the following year to split with Tellez hopefully an Alford or someone is ready to move to the OF full time.

1. Gurriel JR - 2B
2.Harper RF
3. Vlad - 3B
4.Smoak 1B
5. EE DH
6. Bichette SS
7. Grichuk CF
8. Jansen C
9. Hernandez - LF

1. Stroman
2. Keuchel
3. Sanchez
4.Borukci
5. SRF

Giles - Closer
rest of bullpen as see fit.

Bench

Drury - UT
Reese McGuire - C
Mckinney - OF
Towlez - 1B

Good luck with corporate owners who won't incur a significant yearly loss.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Odd that a franchise that was unable to attract free agents when it was “competing” for various reasons is now expected to be a player for free agents entering a fairly clear rebuild/get your feet wet year.

If you would like to aid free agents in driving their prices up, acting as some kind of a loveable patsy, then I suppose I get it.

 

[zeke]

a franchise that was unable to attract free agents when it was “competing”

false, bobo.

 

[ryno23]

Odd that a franchise that was unable to attract free agents when it was “competing” for various reasons is now expected to be a player for free agents entering a fairly clear rebuild/get your feet wet year.

If you would like to aid free agents in driving their prices up, acting as some kind of a loveable patsy, then I suppose I get it.

That was the same sentiment back in the late 80's until Gillick finally decided to use the financial clout and get Morris, Winfield, Molitor, Devo. Free agents had the same view of Toronto then until the GM went out and convinced stars to come to Toronto to help build a winner.

I don't get why all of a sudden Toronto is now some patsy in the FA game? Money talks. Why does the rebuild need to take a few years? You have a pieces in place Vlad, Bichette, Jansen, Gurriel 4 out of 8 regulars ready to contribute at the MLB level. You have Smoak, Grichuk,, Pillar (if you keep him) all decent MLB players that is 7 out of the 8 regulars leaving Hernandez as the last guy who has potential.

You have Stroman, Sanchez as top 2 in a rotation.

So if you brought in high end FA those guys it's not only about this year but the next few years. Sign a Keuchel to a 4 year deal and maybe this year the team is not ready to compete as the learn...maybe fall short of the postseason but starting next year the FA class is not that good. Obviously Harper would be a pipe dream but go ahead and offer him Stanton money he might just take it. Imagine him raking in Rogers centre half the time along with Yankee stadium.

The big spenders like the Yankees, Sox, Cubs all seem to be financially prudent this summer or looking at pitching. Harper is rumored chatting with the White Sox. Jays are better than the White Sox.

Teams are being prudent with contracts these days so you could swoop in and get a true star by simply outbidding people. Sure other teams might outbid you but you gotta at least be at the table and willing to engage the talks. All I am hearing is the Jays not engaging much talk with FA's. You never know might be willing to come if you don't inquire.

AA at least talked to everyone cause he knew hey why not it doesn't hurt to talk.

 

[thehockeysong]

That was the same sentiment back in the late 80's until Gillick finally decided to use the financial clout and get Morris, Winfield, Molitor, Devo. Free agents had the same view of Toronto then until the GM went out and convinced stars to come to Toronto to help build a winner.

I don't get why all of a sudden Toronto is now some patsy in the FA game? Money talks. Why does the rebuild need to take a few years? You have a pieces in place Vlad, Bichette, Jansen, Gurriel 4 out of 8 regulars ready to contribute at the MLB level. You have Smoak, Grichuk,, Pillar (if you keep him) all decent MLB players that is 7 out of the 8 regulars leaving Hernandez as the last guy who has potential.

You have Stroman, Sanchez as top 2 in a rotation.

So if you brought in high end FA those guys it's not only about this year but the next few years. Sign a Keuchel to a 4 year deal and maybe this year the team is not ready to compete as the learn...maybe fall short of the postseason but starting next year the FA class is not that good. Obviously Harper would be a pipe dream but go ahead and offer him Stanton money he might just take it. Imagine him raking in Rogers centre half the time along with Yankee stadium.

The big spenders like the Yankees, Sox, Cubs all seem to be financially prudent this summer or looking at pitching. Harper is rumored chatting with the White Sox. Jays are better than the White Sox.

Teams are being prudent with contracts these days so you could swoop in and get a true star by simply outbidding people. Sure other teams might outbid you but you gotta at least be at the table and willing to engage the talks. All I am hearing is the Jays not engaging much talk with FA's. You never know might be willing to come if you don't inquire.

AA at least talked to everyone cause he knew hey why not it doesn't hurt to talk.

This presumes we know which gms talk to which players.

 

[topched]

I’m really not loving the Atkins style of media posturing on Stroman and Sanchez. The whole we like them and intend to keep them but if you wanna make us an offer thing is stupid. Everyone on the MLB roster is available, and should be.

With guys like Sanchez and Stroman you should be looking to sell high in the next couple years and the sooner the better. Same with anyone else that’s not young and controllable.

Go out and overpay for guys on 1-2 year deals and then look to move them at the deadlines.

There’s no reason Smoak should be in the lineup in April. 1 year left, inexpensive and productive. He should be going to the highest bidder.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

false, bobo.

Selective memory. Life did not start in 2016.

That was the same sentiment back in the late 80's until Gillick finally decided to use the financial clout and get Morris, Winfield, Molitor, Devo. Free agents had the same view of Toronto then until the GM went out and convinced stars to come to Toronto to help build a winner.

Uh huh, and then Roger Clemens signed with the Blue Jays that one time. Then the turn of the century occurred, JP Riccardi was unable to sign a soul, AA was unable to sign a soul and was used as a patsy, and now here we are.

I don't get why all of a sudden Toronto is now some patsy in the FA game? Money talks. Why does the rebuild need to take a few years? You have a pieces in place Vlad, Bichette, Jansen, Gurriel 4 out of 8 regulars ready to contribute at the MLB level. You have Smoak, Grichuk,, Pillar (if you keep him) all decent MLB players that is 7 out of the 8 regulars leaving Hernandez as the last guy who has potential.

Not sudden...at all. And the rebuild does not have to take "a few years", however it will most certainly take 2019 to establish the young talent. Best case scenario, you're the '18 Braves\Phillies in 2020.

You have Stroman, Sanchez as top 2 in a rotation.

So if you brought in high end FA those guys it's not only about this year but the next few years. Sign a Keuchel to a 4 year deal and maybe this year the team is not ready to compete as the learn...maybe fall short of the postseason but starting next year the FA class is not that good. Obviously Harper would be a pipe dream but go ahead and offer him Stanton money he might just take it. Imagine him raking in Rogers centre half the time along with Yankee stadium.

It has been a year and two years, respectively, since Sanchez or Stroman has shown anything past being back of the rotation fodder. They have a remarkable amount to prove, both health-wise and performance-wise, in 2019, and have only two years of control left.

Why is Dallas Keuchel signing with the Blue Jays? Further, why is he doing so for an under market contract (4years)? To pitch in the AL East? Because he loves Canada?

Yes, imagining Bryce Harper hit at the Rogers Centre is great. 12 year old me would have loved it.

The big spenders like the Yankees, Sox, Cubs all seem to be financially prudent this summer or looking at pitching. Harper is rumored chatting with the White Sox. Jays are better than the White Sox.

The White Sox are a patsy. Refer to the AA-run Blue Jays (i.e. large market, payroll strength coupled with room, in theory on the upswing looking to make a splash).

AA at least talked to everyone cause he knew hey why not it doesn't hurt to talk.

AA indeed did participate in a remarkable amount of pillow talk. You could always count on him being involved, albeit at a benign level, with discussions.

 

[topched]

Completely agree with everything FA related DJQ just said. Rogers has shown the willingness to have a top 10 payroll in the league as evidence by the tail end of the AA years and in 16.

I think where Jays fans get confused is that a lot of our big money was tied up in guys who were not FAs, EE, JD, Tulo, JB etc. Hell they went out and overpaid for Russ Martin to take us over the top.

The MO this offseason should be to commit to the full rebuild by moving all your good middle aged assets for controllable assets. Sanchez, Stroman, Smoak, Pillar (if possible), Martin. Give yourself opportunities to hit home runs on players outside of the big names in the system. All remaining money should be used to sign FAs on 1-2 year deals who can build value and be flipped again. Hell, overpay these guys by 1-2 mill per year to get their services.

Otherwise it won’t be until at least next offseason if not 2020 where we are in a spot as fans to reasonably expect a big FA add. We will have a bunch of the mlb roster be composed of cheap guys early in their careers, and can actually look to add proven stars to supplement the move from respectability into contender.

Anyone citing Sanchez, Stroman, Grichuk etc as reasons to try and add now are fooling themselves.

 

[ryno23]

Selective memory. Life did not start in 2016.



Uh huh, and then Roger Clemens signed with the Blue Jays that one time. Then the turn of the century occurred, JP Riccardi was unable to sign a soul, AA was unable to sign a soul and was used as a patsy, and now here we are.

Also signed Randy Myers the following year and if they had the 2nd wild card that year they would have made the postseason

Not sudden...at all. And the rebuild does not have to take "a few years", however it will most certainly take 2019 to establish the young talent. Best case scenario, you're the '18 Braves\Phillies in 2020.

Rebuilds are way different from year to year. With the 2nd wild card you can go from worst to postseason a lot quicker than past years. Just because you sign an FA doesn't mean he is only good for 1 year. A Harper is there for 10 years, Keuchel 3-4 years that would move Sanchez and Stroman down to 2nd and 3rd in the rotation. Maybe sign Happ to a 2 deal and further moves those 2 down

It has been a year and two years, respectively, since Sanchez or Stroman has shown anything past being back of the rotation fodder. They have a remarkable amount to prove, both health-wise and performance-wise, in 2019, and have only two years of control left.

Then move them for high end prospects who are near MLB ready. They both have enough potential left to entice a GM to make good deals for them.

See point above
Why is Dallas Keuchel signing with the Blue Jays? Further, why is he doing so for an under market contract (4years)? To pitch in the AL East? Because he loves Canada?
I just threw a number out for example. Pay him market or above market again it is just money don't have to part with any prospects to bring in quality pitching.

Yes, imagining Bryce Harper hit at the Rogers Centre is great. 12 year old me would have loved it.

So you at whatever age you are now you wouldn't want to see Harper hit at Rogers Centre and man RF for the next 10 years. So you don't want really good really good players coming to Toronto???

The White Sox are a patsy. Refer to the AA-run Blue Jays (i.e. large market, payroll strength coupled with room, in theory on the upswing looking to make a splash).

market is way different than what you are saying. Those big market teams are mostly set. Yanks and Red Sox seem set in the OF. Dodgers are kicking tires but looking at SP help. What other big market teams are looking at Harper? Sure could Boras use the Jays as leverage if he is a good agent he will be if you made Harper or any free agent a quality offer they have to think twice about it and especially if NY, BOS and LA are looking elsewhere then they may have to settle with a team like Toronto who made a great offer.

Instead of signing FA's. AA gutted the farm to bring in Price, Tulo, Dickey. He might have been better off signing big name FA in the offseason and keeping Thor and all the other prospects and dealing them in season when he knew what the team was. Instead of trading for Dickey and the Marlins deal.


AA indeed did participate in a remarkable amount of pillow talk. You could always count on him being involved, albeit at a benign level, with discussions.

At least he was in on the talk and made moves brought the team some postseason play. I don't see anything from these 2 idiots that inspire confidence they can bring a playoff team to Toronto unless they get out of their CLE mentality of small market. There was a reason Shapiro was brought in cause Rogers knew he was experienced in small market places, budget places.

As for a top 10 payroll in 2018 that is bloated by Tulo, Donaldson and Martin making $61 million of the $150 million payroll. Payroll this year is 22nd with the Arb players needing to be signed and that will leave then under the league average.

I get there is a rebuild going on but you can still ad premier talent all the while rebuilding. Why can't the team accelerate the rebuild. Vlad, Bichette, Jansen and Pearson are the main headliners and there is a ton of infield prospects that can be flipped for pitching or getting a stud OF.

Again signing FA's are just part of the rebuild. Trading lower level prospects for near MLB talent can be done. Find teams that have crappy farm systems and propose a deal to help re-stock their farm systems. Tigers with Castellanos those kind of deals where teams are looking to restock their farm system. You also got guys like Pillar, Travis who can be moved for pitching or near MLB level prospects who can then be flipped for needs.

Rebuilding means building. Adding a Harper is a building block, yes I know long shot. Getting premier talent while bringing in the kids is fast tracking the rebuild.

Or better yet what is the rebuild to folks out there? what is everyone rebuild plan. How does this team get better in the next 2-3 years?

We have Vlad, Pearson, Jansen and Bichette. Who else do you wait for in the minors to come along to play with those 4 guys? Who is near ready to join them? Biggio? Alford? Are guys like Groshan, Kevin Smith that close or good enough to supplant Vlad and Biggio at their positions? You have a glut of middle infield players that can be used to add right now to the core of the team and bolster a roster today for the futur.

Do the Jays need to be bottom 10 for the next 3 years to get a 1st overall draft pick to fast track to the majors? The team is not bad enough to do that. You need to start building now this year adding pieces this winter that can help today, tomorrow and for the next few years down the road.

 

[Eyedea]

1992-1993 MLB salaries were a much simpler time for owners.

 

[ryno23]

1992-1993 MLB salaries were a much simpler time for owners.

all relative to money brought in by franchises. TV deals were not in the billion dollars. Tickets didn't cost you 100 for a good seat. Beer wasn't $15.

 

[Leafin]

Tulo released.. wow

 

[Anthrax442]

TuLo is bye bye

 

[Cor]

Did not think they were going to do this.

Good Riddance.

 

[stickty111]

This is a smart decision by the Jays

 

[topched]

Tulo released.. wow

Not surprising at all. Guy hasn’t played a game in over a calendar year, 66 games 2 seasons ago, and still has fantasies of being an every day SS. Wasn’t going to happen for him here and not worth the distraction.

I think Tulo will be humbled by the opportunities (or lack of) that he gets in FA. That said, solid part of our 2 ALCS runs, and appreciative of that.