Post-Game Talk: Varly & Grubi visit the champions

[CapitalsCupReality]

You don't think Cole will think, even a tiny bit, about Wilson (and if he is on the ice) before he does that to a Washington Capital again?

I’d like to see Cole come back at him next game. Ballsy, dumb but ballsy and would be entertaining.

 

[txpd]

You’re not wrong in that Wilson is a presence, but unless someone was going out to do a premeditated cheap shot, I doubt the entire NHL is out there mentally reconciling where Tom Wilson is second by second of every game.

Does Cole even know Wilson is behind him to his right shoulder when he makes contact with Kuzy? If he had eyes in the back of his head he would for sure.

1. As most games act this way, one pair of defensemen plays against the same opposing line for an entire game. They are prepped and game planned pregame for that assignment. Its for sure Cole knew that Kuznestov was on the ice with Wilson.

2. Before Cole hits Kuznetsov Wilson is directly in Cole's line of sight. Further it was a continuing play. Not a position for a line change. Only if Cole is an idiot does he not know Wilson is on the ice.

These teams are prepared for games to know who they are playing against. Defenseman are not surprised to find Ovechkin skating the puck at them.

If you think Cole didn't expect that 43 was on the ice, I cant change your mind. Its possible. Not likely

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Wilson has emasculated 3 guys in 7 fights (Coburn, Oleksiak, Cole), bloodied 5 guys out of 13, I'd be more scared of him than 1-5

I'm in the camp that fighting should stay in the game but I think this is actually proving @twabby's point. How many people does Wilson have to emasculate and bloody before other guys are deterred by his presence?

 

[AussieCapsFan]

1. As most games act this way, one pair of defensemen plays against the same opposing line for an entire game. They are prepped and game planned pregame for that assignment. Its for sure Cole knew that Kuznestov was on the ice with Wilson.

2. Before Cole hits Kuznetsov Wilson is directly in Cole's line of sight. Further it was a continuing play. Not a position for a line change. Only if Cole is an idiot does he not know Wilson is on the ice.

These teams are prepared for games to know who they are playing against. Defenseman are not surprised to find Ovechkin skating the puck at them.

If you think Cole didn't expect that 43 was on the ice, I cant change your mind. Its possible. Not likely

wow - let's spend a dozen posts bickering about a decision a hockey player made in the heat of the moment.

Cole's team was losing, has in fact been losing for weeks and weeks now. He was probably fed up with being beaten, deked, stripped of the puck etc for the umpteenth time and
he was angry and had a rush of blood to the head. Let's not forget he played for the Pens and Blue Jackets so he probably already hates the Caps.
I don't think for one minute his thought process was "I really want to hit Kuznetsov late but Wilson is on the ice and I will probably have to fight him
and he might beat the snot out of me, so maybe it's not a good idea...oh what the hell I'll do it anyway".

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I'm in the camp that fighting should stay in the game but I think this is actually proving @twabby's point. How many people does Wilson have to emasculate and bloody before other guys are deterred by his presence?

The flip side of that argument is that other teams would be taking liberties a LOT more often if there was no Wilson on the roster.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

wow - let's spend a dozen posts bickering about a decision a hockey player made in the heat of the moment.

Cole's team was losing, has in fact been losing for weeks and weeks now. He was probably fed up with being beaten, deked, stripped of the puck etc for the umpteenth time and
he was angry and had a rush of blood to the head. Let's not forget he played for the Pens and Blue Jackets so he probably already hates the Caps.
I don't think for one minute his thought process was "I really want to hit Kuznetsov late but Wilson is on the ice and I will probably have to fight him
and he might beat the snot out of me, so maybe it's not a good idea...oh what the hell I'll do it anyway".

He just doesn’t have time to do that type of mental accounting in the heat of the moment. These are split second decisions not premeditated cheapshots. Cole saw Kuzy’s own path put him in danger and Cole decided to take advantage of it. Kuzy’s momentum did all the work for him. He just had to throw a shoulder into his path.

Tom Wilson doesn’t deter that type of action IMO, but he does deter the premeditated stuff largely and some after the whistle stuff.

 

[txpd]

The flip side of that argument is that other teams would be taking liberties a LOT more often if there was no Wilson on the roster.

Other teams did take liberties the entire lenth of the suspension

 

[Silky mitts]

I'm in the camp that fighting should stay in the game but I think this is actually proving @twabby's point. How many people does Wilson have to emasculate and bloody before other guys are deterred by his presence?

It seemed like the Caps took like 4-6 headshots in the 19 games Wilson missed and just this one in the 35 he’s played.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

The flip side of that argument is that other teams would be taking liberties a LOT more often if there was no Wilson on the roster.

Maybe. Do you think Tanev from the Jets wouldn't have elbowed Kuznetsov in the jaw if Wilson was on the ice? Or do you think he did it because hockey is a game where you're constantly making decisions in micro-time windows and the threat of having to fight Wilson wouldn't have registered in time to deter his actions?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Other teams did take liberties the entire lenth of the suspension

I’m sure Twabby has some stats to confirm or disprove.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Maybe. Do you think Tanev from the Jets wouldn't have elbowed Kuznetsov in the jaw if Wilson was on the ice? Or do you think he did it because hockey is a game where you're constantly making decisions in micro-time windows and the threat of having to fight Wilson wouldn't have registered in time to deter his actions?

Dunno.....but I don’t think it’s 100% either way. Some guys are just tough SOBs and some are just dumb, but the majority of players probably are wise enough to not cross the line most of the time.

 

[kicksavedave]

Interesting debate, which cannot be proven in any real way. There's no way to know how many times a player has a Cap in his sights lined up for a head shot, but mentally processes that "I'm not going to do this head shot because 'Willy'." Thats not how this works but even if that thought process were to actually occur, we'd never know in a trillion years. Maybe there is a stat about head shots vs the Caps with/without Willy but I'd be willing to bet thats more variance than deterrence at work there over this short sample size of this half season. I'd be really curious to see Gretzky's stats with and without his big brother McSorley on the ice with him. Just exactly what is the rate that he took slashes or elbows or worse with/without him present? This sort of deterrence is hard to measure perfectly but I'd love to see the data.

Also not knowable is how often a player has a Cap lined up, makes such headshot knowing in advance he's going to get his face re-arranged, or avoids making said headshot because of the consequences either immediate or soon after. Sure, after the fact, we all know that retribution can happen, but I have serious doubts that Cole was making any sort of "where is Willy, am I safe to make this headshot or am I going to get pummeled for it, ahh screw it, I'm doing it, it will be worth it" sort of mental calculation, in any way. Much more likely is that it was a split second impulse without any sort of logical "pros and cons" sort of analysis about it at all.

 

[maacoshark]

They just showed it, he put some shoulder into Kuz head. Didn't have to. Bottom line, Tom Wilson is an old school NHL enforcer.

I have no problem with Wilson tuning him in. I was calling for Wilson to bright someone.

 

[RandyHolt]

I would like to see a head shot pun something of Ian Cole before the game, immediately after the fight, and then one more again today.

Found this hunting for giffage

 

[IafrateOvie34]

Keep on Rocking Wilson. Put the fear in the opponents.

 

[twabby]

Just to be clear I have no problem with what Wilson did. I don’t like fighting, but if he’s going to fight that seemed like the right time to do it. Not because it will deter later incidents but because sticking up for teammates is a team building exercise which I do think can lead to tangible benefits on the ice in the future.

I don’t have any stats to back up my claim that fighting doesn’t deter bad hits, just my hunch and anecdotal evidence. There are a few blog posts out there that support my claim but I don’t really think they do a great job proving the point so I won’t link them.

But I also haven’t seen any evidence to disprove my claim either so I’m a little puzzled why it’s always taken for granted that players who are good at fighting reduce the frequency of liberties being taken against teammates. In the absence of evidence one way or another just get players on the ice who are good at hockey and don’t worry about providing a deterrent.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

1. As most games act this way, one pair of defensemen plays against the same opposing line for an entire game. They are prepped and game planned pregame for that assignment. Its for sure Cole knew that Kuznestov was on the ice with Wilson.

2. Before Cole hits Kuznetsov Wilson is directly in Cole's line of sight. Further it was a continuing play. Not a position for a line change. Only if Cole is an idiot does he not know Wilson is on the ice.

These teams are prepared for games to know who they are playing against. Defenseman are not surprised to find Ovechkin skating the puck at them.

If you think Cole didn't expect that 43 was on the ice, I cant change your mind. Its possible. Not likely

2. Nope he’s looking to his left, away from Wilson at the guy he’s about to shoulder. I’m not saying he didn’t know Wilson was there, maybe he did, but he’s either dumb, didn’t care, or as I suggested, wasn’t thinking of Wilson when he made the hit. It’s a bang bang play.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Just to be clear I have no problem with what Wilson did. I don’t like fighting, but if he’s going to fight that seemed like the right time to do it. Not because it will deter later incidents but because sticking up for teammates is a team building exercise which I do think can lead to tangible benefits on the ice in the future.

I don’t have any stats to back up my claim that fighting doesn’t deter bad hits, just my hunch and anecdotal evidence. There are a few blog posts out there that support my claim but I don’t really think they do a great job proving the point so I won’t link them.

But I also haven’t seen any evidence to disprove my claim either so I’m a little puzzled why it’s always taken for granted that players who are good at fighting reduce the frequency of liberties being taken against teammates. In the absence of evidence one way or another just get players on the ice who are good at hockey and don’t worry about providing a deterrent.

So the bad hits Caps players took while he was out are evidence of nothing?

 

[Portable Mink]

I’m glad he beat him up. Deserved it. One less guy to every have to worry bout again. Tell your mates.

 

[RandyHolt]

So the bad hits Caps players took while he was out are evidence of nothing?

It may actually go down as on the greatest pieces of evidence in the vast history of NHL buffoonery.

I say that because goons and fighting are so rare now, with most of their suspensions are just a handslap game or 2, we will be hard pressed to find a more telling sample size. In the past, there were so many goons, so many hard hits, it was tough to sort it all out.

With Willy's monster suspension and horrid run of head shots that we faced in his absence, I finally rest my case as an honorary founder of the NHL goon legal defense team.

Even with the Cole hit, this was a landmark case.

I am not joking, this is my job.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

 

[RandyHolt]

Yes Tom Wilson is: Satan, and a saint; a contrast in duality. And my upcoming book title.

Fighting and sticking up for teammates is a great opportunity for team building, as @twabby says. However, Colorado missed an opportunity to do just that, as their demoralizing season slowly goes down the tubes. Sure 3rd mans have all but been eliminated from the game what with heavy handed Bentman thinking its good for the game, but as a result guys like Cole are left helpless.

I do have to say that I thought the liners would jump in before they did. Tommy Gun had served up enough justice about halfway through, and it seemed like they started to move in, but then backed off.

I love the 3rd man. They never really evolved into being a big donnybrook or bench clearer, and the fans would almost universally go nuts watching 10 men form a giant pile on the ice. As a fan either your guy won the fight, or your guy got saved. All fans were happy, right?

I think it was good for hockey. A zillion people just sitting back and watching a guy getting beaten in a one sided fight, eventually someone has to step in as folks become uneasy. Watch boxing, or more so MMA, they move in quick. Hockey, nope, linesman just let the poor guy suffer while pretending like they are helpless to intervene.

We can assume its a part of new age NHL justice, with the linesman dancing around pretending to look for a safe entry, basically stalling already having decided that the guy eating punches deserved it. Yes, the linesman are essentially on ice DOPES.

I tried to find 3rd man tubbage from yesteryear - there is not much. Here is a proper donnybrook. I bet Donny Brook was a real badass.

 

[twabby]

So the bad hits Caps players took while he was out are evidence of nothing?

It’s a small sample size. You’d really need to go through years of league data and draw a conclusion from that rather than basing your claim on a few hits taken while he was out.

 

[txpd]

but he’s either dumb, didn’t care, or as I suggested, wasn’t thinking of Wilson when he made the hit. It’s a bang bang play.

I think it was a no thinking decision to get a little cheap shot in on Kuzy and it was a little bigger cheap shot than he planned. I think he was thinking he was harassing 92, not taking him out and as such didn't consider that Wilson would care past trashing talking him. So, I think we are thinking the same only using different words.

Meaning his decision was dumb and his actions were more dumb and he will maybe think twice before he does something like that again

 

[Bieronymus Trotz]

I'm very pro-fighting and I think the idea that it's a deterrent to cheap shots has always been absurd. It was especially so when most teams had an enforcer-type, who most of the time would be the one who actually had to do the fighting after an incident. Wilson's obliteration of Cole is the only thing that's ever made me believe a tiny bit, but you have to remember that most of the time these fights are anticlimactic. Above all, a player doesn't have to accept a fight.