Raptors Discussion: v91 - NBA in restart plans

[ACC1224]

The way he left matters.

Didn’t he throw games as well?

 

[sparxx87]

The guy who put this city and team on the map and got our team some recognition worldwide and grew the sport of basketball in all of Canada is considered setting the bar low. Damn, that's crazy.

It’s crazy to imagine anyone who followed the team during this period has any time for Vince Carter.

His highlight tape doesn’t really show his selfishness setting the organization back years. Doesn’t really talk about the Philly series where they had a real shot at the finals but he chose to leave the team and attend a superficial ceremony on the most important professional day of his life. They don’t show his final year where he was visibly dogging it, and the contrast to when he moved on to New Jersey.


Vince has only ever cared about what’s best for Vince. That’s not a person that should be celebrated.

 

[supermann_98]

Honestly that seems completely unnecessary from anything but a "we want more money" standpoint.

Also, am I the only one that has pondered a potential scenario where the Raps win the Championship again but the US media puts another asterisk next to it because "all the good players opted out?"

Seems like it'd be par for the course.

I'd love to make the finals and hear LeBron and AD caught the rona and couldn't play. I'd laugh my ass off and celebrate the coronation of our second straight championship, and not give a DAMN what Steven A and Cowherd thought. I would revel in their tears and bathe in their distaste for all things Canada

 

[Kurtz]

Didn’t he throw games as well?

No.

 

[supermann_98]

Report: NBA discussing bubble for non-playoff teams - TSN.ca

If I'm a non-playoff team player I wouldn't even consider going back unless I was a bubble G-league player. Imagine a guy like Trae Young tearing his ACL for that crap? If I was a team president of one of those teams I would straight up tell the league my squad will not participate

 

[Kurtz]

It’s crazy to imagine anyone who followed the team during this period has any time for Vince Carter.

His highlight tape doesn’t really show his selfishness setting the organization back years. Doesn’t really talk about the Philly series where they had a real shot at the finals but he chose to leave the team and attend a superficial ceremony on the most important professional day of his life. They don’t show his final year where he was visibly dogging it, and the contrast to when he moved on to New Jersey.


Vince has only ever cared about what’s best for Vince. That’s not a person that should be celebrated.

Well, that's one side of the story, but it should also be noted that that year Vince was playing for an idiot coach who tried to fight him in the locker room, and was also playing with a garbage PG who held a grudge and refused to pass VC the ball during the game.

I don't see the point of holding on to a grudge over a bad half-season. For example - at one point, Kobe had asked for a trade from the Lakers. MJ asked for a trade from the Bulls. Obviously, Vince didn't bring us a ring - but he might have saved our franchise from suffering the same fate as the Grizzlies.

VC's numbers did improve significantly after the trade - but bears noting that he went from playing with Rafer Alson (who again, literally refused to pass him the ball) to Jason Kidd - one of the best pgs in the history of the game.

 

[LaPlante94]

It’s crazy to imagine anyone who followed the team during this period has any time for Vince Carter.

His highlight tape doesn’t really show his selfishness setting the organization back years. Doesn’t really talk about the Philly series where they had a real shot at the finals but he chose to leave the team and attend a superficial ceremony on the most important professional day of his life. They don’t show his final year where he was visibly dogging it, and the contrast to when he moved on to New Jersey.


Vince has only ever cared about what’s best for Vince. That’s not a person that should be celebrated.

Bad management set our team back, not Vince. You talk like you know the full story from both sides and act like Vince was the only problem back then when that's not the case at all.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I don't think there should really be any bad feelings about Vince at this point. It has been a long time and everyone has moved on. I do not think he should be lifted up on a pedestal and for people to gloss over what happened on his way out. It is incredibly easy to shift all the blame on bad management but he handled the situation like a child not a professional athlete.

 

[sparxx87]

No.

Debatable. While he may not have actively tried to lose games, when the leader and best player of a basketball team starts coasting, it’s almost assuredly going to create a toxic environment and result in a lot of losing.

Remember, Kawhi didn’t want to be a Raptor, nor did Kyle Lowry... but as professionals they came to work and played to win.


No other franchise would be having this debate. The Raptors are just a young team who haven’t really had any superstars stick around... but now they have a title so there’s really no need to be giving participation ribbons.

Kyle Lowry’s #7 will be the first retired jersey, and deservedly so.

 

[ACC1224]

No.

Did Carter slip secrets to opponents?

 

[sparxx87]

I don't think there should really be any bad feelings about Vince at this point. It has been a long time and every has moved on. I do not think he should be lifted up on a pedestal and for people to gloss over what happened on his way out. It is incredibly easy to shift all the blame on bad management but he handled the situation like a child not a professional athlete.

Exactly.

I’m indifferent about Carter. It was kind of cool seeing him play so long, I just reject the idea that he should be celebrated as a Raptor or have his jersey retired.

 

[sparxx87]

Well, that's one side of the story, but it should also be noted that that year Vince was playing for an idiot coach who tried to fight him in the locker room, and was also playing with a garbage PG who held a grudge and refused to pass VC the ball during the game.

I don't see the point of holding on to a grudge over a bad half-season. For example - at one point, Kobe had asked for a trade from the Lakers. MJ asked for a trade from the Bulls. Obviously, Vince didn't bring us a ring - but he might have saved our franchise from suffering the same fate as the Grizzlies.

VC's numbers did improve significantly after the trade - but bears noting that he went from playing with Rafer Alson (who again, literally refused to pass him the ball) to Jason Kidd - one of the best pgs in the history of the game.

Jalen Rose tells the story a little differently. He said Mitchell came into the room and made a comment about how Carter spends more time on the trainers table than in practice. Vince got up in his face and apparently body slammed him onto the trainers table. Both individuals were in the wrong but saying ‘coach tried to fight him’ isn’t really a fair representation.

Jalen Rose is a pretty credible and level headed individual with very little reason to misrepresent the situation.

 

[Kurtz]

Debatable. While he may not have actively tried to lose games, when the leader and best player of a basketball team starts coasting, it’s almost assuredly going to create a toxic environment and result in a lot of losing.

Remember, Kawhi didn’t want to be a Raptor, nor did Kyle Lowry... but as professionals they came to work and played to win.


No other franchise would be having this debate. The Raptors are just a young team who haven’t really had any superstars stick around... but now they have a title so there’s really no need to be giving participation ribbons.

Kyle Lowry’s #7 will be the first retired jersey, and deservedly so.

Oh, I agree during that stretch he probably didn't give it 100%, but the question was - "did he throw games?", and that's definitely a no.

 

[Kurtz]

Jalen Rose tells the story a little differently. He said Mitchell came into the room and made a comment about how Carter spends more time on the trainers table than in practice. Vince got up in his face and apparently body slammed him onto the trainers table. Both individuals were in the wrong but saying ‘coach tried to fight him’ isn’t really a fair representation.

Jalen Rose is a pretty credible and level headed individual with very little reason to misrepresent the situation.

I do believe Rose, but I think you're misremembering his story a little bit: Jalen Rose details how Vince Carter bodyslammed Sam Mitchell in 2004

 

[sparxx87]

I do believe Rose, but I think you're misremembering his story a little bit: Jalen Rose details how Vince Carter bodyslammed Sam Mitchell in 2004

My bad, it’s been a minute but the point was ‘coach tried to fight him’ isn’t really accurate.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Home court advantage out of the equation makes things more interesting. Teams can just go mano e mano.

 

[Cor]

Home court advantage out of the equation makes things more interesting. Teams can just go mano e mano.

Hey, now the refs can not call blatant fouls committed against us without worrying about our home crowd shitting on them.

 

[Bjindaho]

Well, that's one side of the story, but it should also be noted that that year Vince was playing for an idiot coach who tried to fight him in the locker room, and was also playing with a garbage PG who held a grudge and refused to pass VC the ball during the game.

I don't see the point of holding on to a grudge over a bad half-season. For example - at one point, Kobe had asked for a trade from the Lakers. MJ asked for a trade from the Bulls. Obviously, Vince didn't bring us a ring - but he might have saved our franchise from suffering the same fate as the Grizzlies.

VC's numbers did improve significantly after the trade - but bears noting that he went from playing with Rafer Alson (who again, literally refused to pass him the ball) to Jason Kidd - one of the best pgs in the history of the game.

Except that Alston was the backup. Jalen Rose was our PG.

 

[Kurtz]

Except that Alston was the backup. Jalen Rose was our PG.

Incorrect.

Alston started 78/80 games that season and averaged 34 minutes per game. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/alstora01.html

 

[Bjindaho]

Incorrect.

Alston started 78/80 games that season and averaged 34 minutes per game. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/alstora01.html

Which doesn't make him PG...Jalen was primarily PG in Toronto. Their positions seem to be fairly arbitrary.

 

[Kurtz]

Which doesn't make him PG...Jalen was primarily PG in Toronto. Their positions seem to be fairly arbitrary.

No, I think you're thinking of the year before - where we didn't really have a pg and Jalen did a lot of the ball-handling.

The year we're talking about, Alston was the pg and the primary offense initiator. You can easily check this by looking at the assist numbers for that year - Alston averaged 6.4 assists and Jalen 2.6.

 

[theaub]

Scrimmage against Houston at 7:30 tonight

 

[thewave]

Home court advantage out of the equation makes things more interesting. Teams can just go mano e mano.

Toronto will have home court advantage wherever they are. There are a lot of Canadians down there

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[donghabs98]

Hopefully Fred didnt get banged up too much.