Unfufilled potential ...

[John Flyers Fan]

Saying that Fedorov didn't live up to his potential is like saying the same thing about Datsyuk. Fedorov might have been a headcase at times but I think he lived up to his potential. He did have a slump in Columbus but I never noticed him slacking in Detroit. Fedorov had several big years and not just one or two but he also had Gretzky, Lemieux, Lindros, Sakic, Forsberg etc to compete with.

I just never saw him as potential top 35 guy which means you expected him to surpass Fetisov, Kharlamov and Tretiak amongst others. I just don't see it.

I'm not going to get into the Kharlamov/Tretiak discussion here, but I do think that Fedorov had the ability to be in the top 5 Euro off all-time discussion with Fetisov, Lidstrom, Jagr and Hasek, all of whom would be safely inside my top 50.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Trying to come up with some goalies.

Hextall and Richter come to mind.

A few other players that come to mind: The entire A-Line of the Devils. The was a small stretch where they were a top 3 line in the game.

Elias has never been the same since the Hepatitis issue, not sure if that's the reason for it or not. Being forced to play center hasn't helped.

Sykora was never the same after leaving NJ.

Arnott has the size and hands to have been so much more, although never had great wheels.

Scott Gomez, Peter Zezel, Petr Nedved, Mike Bullard are a few others.

 

[BubbaBoot]

- Sergei Samsonov -
Loved the guy, he was very exciting with a sick offensive skill set, but couldn't quite get over that hump from good to very good.

Got to 29 goals twice but never got that 30+ goal season. He was amazingly consistent, playing nearly every game with the Bruins for his first 5 years, then got hurt, (a wrist injury that affected his amazing stickhandling abilities), and never played with quite the same abandon.

Older now and his quickness is gone. He never got his complete game attuned to be able to convert to a 3rd line / defensive specialist like Bobby Carpenter and Joe Juneau did late in their careers.

 

[BubbaBoot]

Brian Smolinski. Somehow i always expected more out of him. Like Carpenter and Juneau, he was able to also convert into a good defensive line forward.

Mike Krushelnyski. Got 48 goals / 88 points with Edmonton after a couple of good years with Boston.....then scored 20 or more only twice over the next 10 years.

Ryan Walter. Martin Gaborick. Tom Fergus. Fredrik Modin.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Kent Nilsson always left you wanting more the skill was there but the want was so-so.

Also Ivan Hlinka's want in Vancouver was well wanting at times.

Krutov just plain couldn't handle the freedom and wasn't disciplined enough. such a shame as he was only 29 when he was washed up.

Same with Real "Buddy" Cloutier, great skills just a lack of want.

Ivan Boldirev was so smooth and made things look easy at times, same with Patrick Sundstrom.

The bottom line is that Gretzky's most under appreciated skill was his compete level and desire to be the best he could each and every shift, his mental preparation was legendary and was the biggest difference between him being the best of all time rather than just another superstar.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

ton of goalies for this though: Corey Hirsch (seriously, how did that guy ever get so hyped?), Jamie Storr, Eric Fichaud, Trevor Kidd

Corey Hirsch wasn't too bad. His problem the fact that he played on bad teams and teams in turmoil.... and (more seriously) that he didn't have the physique to tough out the daily grind of being a #1 NHL goalie.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Corey Hirsch wasn't too bad. His problem the fact that he played on bad teams and teams in turmoil.... and (more seriously) that he didn't have the physique to tough out the daily grind of being a #1 NHL goalie.

even as a canucks fan who lived through the late 90s, the first thing i think of when i hear that name is "the stamp" (which was apparently his nickname when he played in the SEL).

one other thing i remember about hirsch is that he was one of the most vocal guys during the lockout talking about NHL players going to europe and taking guys' jobs. of course, it's the nature of competitive pro sports that somebody better than you is probably going to get your job. when hirsch ran out of chances in the NHL, he went to europe-- to try take somebody else's job. and after one poor year in the SEL, he signed with a team in the swiss league, again taking somebody's job. when the lockout was announced, hirsch's swiss league contract was canceled because they found somebody better to play in his spot. and the big irony is that the guy who took his swiss league job during the lockout? local goalie martin gerber, whose job that was in the first place.

 

[MS]

Not exactly. Gretzky brought it every night, its what separates the immortals from the great.

Fedorov's Hart season was brilliant, and it wasnt a fluke as a number of great postseasons back it up. Fedorov's other regular seasons don't match his Hart trophy season or his playoff level of play.

Fedorov is similar in that way to Rick MacLeish (albeit much better). You weren't always sure what you would get in the regular season, save for one or two big years, but you absolutely knew that he would be great when it mattered most, and without them there are no Cups for the Wings/Flyers.

I think the Fedorov case is *way* over-simplified in a lot of quarters.

First, he's one of the guys affected by the massive drop in league scoring from the 1990-95 period to the post-1995 era. You hear the same things for Mogilny, Selanne, Roenick - that they lost either motivation or ability, when the simple fact was the league scoring dropped by 30% and of course that was going to be reflected in player stats.

In Fedorov's last year in Detroit, he had 93 adjusted points which is not all that far off the 109 adjusted points he peaked at in his career year.

The other factor here is what happens when you have two elite centers on the same team. There's only so much icetime to go around, and only so many good wingers to go around.

Sakic and Forsberg almost never had great seasons at the same time, and the career years for each player line up almost exactly with off-years or injured years for the other player.

Same with Yzerman and Fedorov. It's no coincidence that Fedorov's best season was a year that Yzerman was sidelined for a large part of, and also no coincidence that he 'rebounded' in 2002-03 to have his best season in years, during a season where Yzerman missed almost the entire year.

Fedorov was essentially the #2 center for Detroit for his 'disappointing' period with 2nd-line wingers and asked to play a more defensive role. It isn't surprising that his performance suffered. He also played defense for large chunks of a couple seasons.

Did he under-achieve through that period? Maybe a bit, but to me not nearly as much as it's made out that he did.

_________

I think there's also a tendancy to try and fit things into stereotypes, and that Russians are a bit unfairly picked on in this regard.

Bobby Clarke had a nearly identical drop-off to Fedorov at almost exactly the same stage of his career (age 26+, after winning a couple Cups) but no-one thinks of him as 'unfulfilled potential'.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Buddy Cloutier

Kent Nilsson always left you wanting more the skill was there but the want was so-so.

Also Ivan Hlinka's want in Vancouver was well wanting at times.

Krutov just plain couldn't handle the freedom and wasn't disciplined enough. such a shame as he was only 29 when he was washed up.

Same with Real "Buddy" Cloutier, great skills just a lack of want.

Ivan Boldirev was so smooth and made things look easy at times, same with Patrick Sundstrom.

The bottom line is that Gretzky's most under appreciated skill was his compete level and desire to be the best he could each and every shift, his mental preparation was legendary and was the biggest difference between him being the best of all time rather than just another superstar.

Severely fractured ankle in a benefit softball game did the damage.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Despite Lafleur's peak years, which sets him apart from many, I still think he could have had a better career. His mediocre seasons left me mystified, particularly 1981-84. I thought he became a better overall player but his stats don't show it. Booze and his conflict with the Canadiens front office during this period were clearly factors, as well as the Canadiens draft picks.

 

[Bauer Warrior*]

I'm talking about players that had good, maybe even great careers, yet still left you wanting even more.

*** Not talking about injured players *** So, no Orr, Lemieux, Lindros, Forsberg, etc.

The first two names that come to mind for me are Sergei Fedorov and Alexei Kovalev.

Not trying to make this a Russian bash thread, so a few other names to start the list:

Stephane Richer

Reggie Leach (not sure if he really qualifies as alcohol issues could be considered similar to an injury)

Rick MacLeish

I'm going to say Paul Kariya, who was fantastic as a [Mighty] Duck, but really regressed after leaving. And I'm talking injury or no injury, he was never the same player after he played hard ball with Anaheim.

Kovalev... no question. He's got arguably the best hands I've ever seen.

Olli Jokinen was highly touted when and before he was drafted, struggled early on, thrived and starred under Mike Keanan.... ultimately, no Keanan= No success.

Sticking to the '97 draft, Joe Thornton leaves me so much to be desired. I thought he would be tougher (more so physically than mentally), I just always see him on the perimeter, both in the playoffs and in regular season.

Todd Harvey of the Dallas Stars and San Jose Sharks was supposed to be the Bobby Clarke of the '90's. He was a bit of a character forward, but had no brakes (couldn't stop) and no numbers (stats).

Alexei Yashin, I thought was neck and neck for best in the game with Jagr in the late 90's, but once he got to the Islanders [his first NHL action in the new melenium], to quote Foghorn Leghorn in the GEICO commercial, "he sunk like a stone."

I thought Chris Gratton would be a model power forward at the center position, and he had some nice years, but once he wanted money [came to Philly in '97], his play also "sunk like a stone" and never recovered.

Jay Bouwmeester has good skill, but he's also soft and inconsistent. Word was that he was smarting a bit for not being chosen first in the '02 draft. If that's all it takes to set him off... wow! I hope he doesn't have a wife.

Alexandre Daigle never sniffed the success of Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Pat LaFontaine, or Jeremy Roenick. But he did get some nice pay checks and Pamela Anderson (when she was young) to brag about.

Oleg Tverdovsky. If someone says, even in hyperbole, that you did anything "like Bobby Orr.", it's just setting up for failure. Poor guy. He had a decent career, but I definitely did expect more.

Tim Connolly came into the league with real slick moves. But he always had trouble finishing, even before concussion issues. I thought he'd be a potent scorer who'd pot at least 30 per year. I don't even think he ever netted 20. I'd have to double check. Still, I expected more.

Jeff Friesen had sick wheels and a pretty nice finishing touch, but like with Chris Gratton and Paul Kariya before him, once he left the team who drafted him, his game was just never the same.

... Because I'm sticking to NHL careers, I'm not going to mention Jason Bonsignore (easily confused with Mario Lemieux

 

[Strong Island]

A few other players that come to mind: The entire A-Line of the Devils. The was a small stretch where they were a top 3 line in the game.

Elias has never been the same since the Hepatitis issue, not sure if that's the reason for it or not. Being forced to play center hasn't helped.

I would argue that although Elias reached his statistical peak in 00-01 with the A-line, he was most impressive in the following pre-lockout years; culminating in a spectacular performance in 03-04. He blossomed into such a mature hockey player both on the ice and as a leader. His defensive prowess was certainly obvious, but the message he sent to his team after his "buddies" were traded was tremendous, as he showed he was willing to sacrifice personal stats in order to win, which he did in 2003 under Pat Burns. I really don't think you can say Elias never reached his potential.

And the post-lockout "decline" was probably more due to severely supressed shooting percentages in 06-07 and 07-08... aka a long string of bad luck. If he had shot his career percentage those two years he would have scored over 30 goals each year.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Pat Falloon
Tyler Arnason
Jimmy Waite
Pat Peake

 

[Big Phil]

I'm talking about players that had good, maybe even great careers, yet still left you wanting even more.

*** Not talking about injured players *** So, no Orr, Lemieux, Lindros, Forsberg, etc.

I'll still mention Lindros. There was plenty of time for him to prove the critics wrong prior to 2000 when he got his head scrambled.

1995 playoffs - Too easy to shut down against the Devils
1996 playoffs - another team who managed to shut him down. Lindros had more talent in his big toe than anyone on Florida but still couldn't carry the Flyers
1996 World Cup - It isn't as if he played bad, but with Lemieux out of the equation and Gretzky and Messier old men this should have been "his" team. It wasn't and he looked uninspiring at times.
1997 Cup final - How is it that you can play three rounds of brilliant hockey and then take a bath in the final?
1998 Olympics - I wasn't overly impressed with him in this tournament. He never should have been captain as long as Gretzky was earning an NHL paycheck. And it showed

1998, 1999 and 2000 playoffs he was either injured or not 100%. Can't blame him too much there. But he has loads of knocks on him when he was healthy. If Lindros wins just one of those above 5 series then I don't think the image we have of him is that poor and the debate for him to be in the HHOF cools off

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

^ didn't pat peake suffer a career-ending tailbone/spine injury after crashing into the boards on a touch icing?

i think of this last generation, kovalev and nedved are the poster boys of unfulfilled potential. to the point that their potential and skills has now become ridiculously overrated. they were both tremendously gifted: big strong guys, had world class wrist shots, skated well, great stickhandlers, fantastic playmaking vision, and yet both offensively peaked as 90 point second liners on the lemieux/jagr penguins. and funnily enough, they were traded for one another and ended up being teammates on one of the most talented underachieving teams in recent memory: the early 2000s rangers. both also played the best hockey of their careers after sather traded them at the deadline that one year he decided to "gimme" all the canadian teams (nedved heroically almost lifting the oilers to the playoffs, kovalev being awesome in the playoffs, fake injury/giving boston a breakaway notwithstanding).

but to hear some people talk about them, they were as good as mogilny or fedorov. and that simply isn't true.

 

[MS]

^ didn't pat peake suffer a career-ending tailbone/spine injury after crashing into the boards on a touch icing?

He actually went foot-first into the boards on the icing call and basically exploded his heel.

I remember hearing afterward that doctors had never seen the injury before on a living person - generally the injury was only seen on dead construction workers who fell from skyscrapers.

 

[jkrx]

Trying to come up with some goalies.

Hextall and Richter come to mind.

A few other players that come to mind: The entire A-Line of the Devils. The was a small stretch where they were a top 3 line in the game.

Elias has never been the same since the Hepatitis issue, not sure if that's the reason for it or not. Being forced to play center hasn't helped.

Sykora was never the same after leaving NJ.

Arnott has the size and hands to have been so much more, although never had great wheels.

Scott Gomez, Peter Zezel, Petr Nedved, Mike Bullard are a few others.

When it comes to goalies we have Raycroft, Martin Biron and Marc Denis? Thibault and Theodore?

 

[VanIslander]

... Petr Nedved...

Absolutely!

 

[hannes_ko]

Tomi Kallio.

Oh, yes. It's hard to remeber how good Kallio once looked. I really liked his game, speed, grit, decent hands... and that he was a fearless competitor. His first international tournaments were successes and most people thought he would go on and have a great NHL career.

And what we got? Speedy, uneffective guy, who would play in every WC tournament and score great goals against Austrias and Belaruses and the disappear when going got though. A very good player in European leagues, but faraway of what could have been. And it basically was all in his head.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Vincent Lecavalier.

If this guy had the heart of his teammate Martin St. Louis, he could have been another Messier.

Basically, this is a guy who has a Cup ring and a lifetime contract, so what more does he need? Plays in a market where there is little external pressure to succeed, and he can live in relative obscurity on the beaches and golf courses of sunny Florida.

I'm not saying he doesn't try or doesn't want to win, but I get the feeling that Lecavalier is one of those players that thinks winning is great, but losing isn't the end of the world either, so he doesn't strive to find that extra gear of compete level.

The result is a guy who has the ability to take over games, but is content to merely do enough to avoid criticism. Had a solid playoff run, scored some big goals against Pittsburgh and Washington, and at the end of the day left most of the heavy lifting against Boston to St. Louis, as Tampa came up a game short of reaching the final.

 

[Padan]

Scott Niedermayer. I think that he only lived up to his potential in three or four of his 18 NHL-seasons. It was both exciting and frustrating to watch him play - exciting because of his skating ability and skill, and frustrating because you thought he had the ability to take over a game, but he rarely did. I always got the feeling that he not really had the passion for the game, even more so according to how he handled the contract issue in Anaheim in his last year(s).

 

[Loto68]

I just feel like Kovalev is the be all end all of this argument. When he was on there were only a handful of players that could look has great as he could.

 

[Stephen]

Scott Niedermayer. I think that he only lived up to his potential in three or four of his 18 NHL-seasons. It was both exciting and frustrating to watch him play - exciting because of his skating ability and skill, and frustrating because you thought he had the ability to take over a game, but he rarely did. I always got the feeling that he not really had the passion for the game, even more so according to how he handled the contract issue in Anaheim in his last year(s).

I agree, in a way. Niedermayer was always kind of held back in New Jersey offensively, but he did have a rare ability that left you wanting more. Earlier in his career, his statistics and offensive output always seemed disappointing. He didn't really break out until 1997-98, and then had some average years up until the 2003 Devils cup run and his first few years with Anaheim before we started to see him really emerge. For a lot of his career he seemed to be stuck in that Tomas Kaberle gear.

You'd often wonder why he wasn't doing these kind of Bobby Orr type things on a regular basis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYGS-ooHq8w

 

[jkrx]

I can't believe I forgot about that cocky kid in '97 who said "I am here to take somebody's job". That kid was Dan Cleary. Never lived up to the expectations or his potential.

 

[tony d]

Jay Bouwmeester. There was a time he was supposed to be the next great NHL defenseman. He's had a good career but he could have been so much better.