Underrated/Overrated

[Pavel Buchnevich]

USA has no World Class players in the last 20 years so yes they have had good results but isn't the ultimate goal to win a World Cup one day. There is a reason why France Brazil Italy Argentina Germany have won most of the Cups the last 30 years. The goal should be to win the World Cup not just have good results in World Cups. For that to happen you need great players and until USA develops great players they will never win a World Cup. Pulisic is a nice start but you need more.

You do realize I never compared the USA to the best teams nor did I say the USA has world class players or doesn't need to improve. Someone said American players are overrated. I responded that it makes no sense because no one rates American players, despite our good results compared to countries where the players obviously are rated. If anything, our players are underrated.

 

[S E P H]

I love how all American players are overrated.

No one rates any of our players. How could they be overrated? They are in fact very underrated. We routinely perform better than all these hot-shot European countries, besides the top few, at the World Cup.

Bro, Weah scores a goal here and half of the football forum is doing this pose...

Pulisic is the most talked about player after Pogba and Modric for some unknown reason. Davies is now rated as one of the top 3 players in Bayern's youth system (I know his country). Donovan is considered a hero for a second-rate footballer. Bradley was known as the one of the most up and coming CM's before the 2014 World Cup. Dempsey was hyped up as a beast for the Spurs. Jozy Altidore was so underrated. Tim Howard should've won multiple PFA awards.

You blokes are crazy.

 

[Gecklund]

Bro, Weah scores a goal here and half of the football forum is doing this pose...

Pulisic is the most talked about player after Pogba and Modric for some unknown reason. Davies is now rated as one of the top 3 players in Bayern's youth system (I know his country). Donovan is considered a hero for a second-rate footballer. Bradley was known as the one of the most up and coming CM's before the 2014 World Cup. Dempsey was hyped up as a beast for the Spurs. Jozy Altidore was so underrated. Tim Howard should've won multiple PFA awards.

You blokes are crazy.

What? Pulisic doesn’t get talked about nearly as much as Liverpool players. No one really talks about Bayern’s youth system except cgf and I doubt he says anything about Davies. Donovan is definitely a hero for Americans just like how other non WC players are for lower countries. Bradley was never “one of the most” up and coming mids. He was known cause of his dad. Dempsey and Altidore were criticized massively rightfully or wrongfully in England. Howard was pretty good in the PL.

 

[S E P H]

What? Pulisic doesn’t get talked about nearly as much as Liverpool players. No one really talks about Bayern’s youth system except cgf and I doubt he says anything about Davies. Donovan is definitely a hero for Americans just like how other non WC players are for lower countries. Bradley was never “one of the most” up and coming mids. He was known cause of his dad. Dempsey and Altidore were criticized massively rightfully or wrongfully in England. Howard was pretty good in the PL.

Holy **** Pulisic gets talked about an insane amount. Look at the transfer thread part III and control+F his name.

1. Pogba
2. Modric
3. Pulisic
4. Ronaldo
5. Messi

That's the list of the most popular players on this board by far.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

The U.S. routinely outperforms some hand-picked second or third-tier European teams who aren't good enough to regularly qualify? Congratulations. There's also teams from outside the top bracket of UEFA that perform to the level of making the knockout round from time to time. This is ignoring the fact that you initially referred to the rating of individual players, not national teams, then combined the two to make a point. The expectations of countries like Poland and Serbia (how convenient you included two of the whopping three 'hot-shot' European teams eliminated in the first round this year) is based on their players. If Poland is expected to top a balanced group because they have a world class striker like Lewandowski, but they don't, is Lewandowski not actually a top striker? Does Milinkovic-Savic not actually have world class potential because Serbia didn't do well? I guess those players actually aren't better than a bunch of guys from the MLS.

The rest of your post is an irrelevant diatribe about the typical whiny 'eurosnob' nonsense, and what's more amusing is you decided to casually lump South America in there, as if there's any comparison between their quality, their results, or how they're viewed by European fans and North American teams.

Edit - My mistake, two of three teams.

Nothing is hand-picked. We are better than the whole European second tier results-wise, but I guess that doesn't matter to some, like you. You'd rather fawn over the club teams the players play for, not recognizing that players from the Americas are at a big disadvantage with playing in the best leagues.

And you can try to separate the two, but of course players and team results go hand in hand. Thats how sports works. The most talented teams more often than not play the best. Flukes occasionally happen, but not over a 20 year period of time. How could American players be overrated when the National team is incredibly underrated? They have magic powers that other countries don't have? Of course not. The whole equilibrium is off. If the USA was located in the EU, our players would on average be at much better club teams and fans would rate them much higher.

Its the same with other countries in the Americas who are at the same disadvantage as we are in that aspect. The only countries in the Americas who get their players properly rated are the two powerhouses, Brazil and Argentina. The rest of the teams are perpetually underrated and have underrated players because have a bunch of players on their team not in Europe. Even then, Brazil and Argentina also at times have some underrated players that no one here has seen because they are playing their club football in South America.

 

[Gecklund]

Holy **** Pulisic gets talked about an insane amount. Look at the transfer thread part III and control+F his name.

1. Pogba
2. Modric
3. Pulisic
4. Ronaldo
5. Messi

That's the list of the most popular players on this board by far.

He gets talked about because his name gets brought up in rumors. But no, Liverpool players (VVD mainly) gets talked about much more. If you are talking about this off-season maybe but Modric shouldn’t be anywhere near that list. I’d say it’s more of Liverpool in general, Pogba, Hazard, Pep, Ozil, and Ronaldo in no particular order

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Bro, Weah scores a goal here and half of the football forum is doing this pose...

Pulisic is the most talked about player after Pogba and Modric for some unknown reason. Davies is now rated as one of the top 3 players in Bayern's youth system (I know his country). Donovan is considered a hero for a second-rate footballer. Bradley was known as the one of the most up and coming CM's before the 2014 World Cup. Dempsey was hyped up as a beast for the Spurs. Jozy Altidore was so underrated. Tim Howard should've won multiple PFA awards.

You blokes are crazy.

I think you don't understand what overrated means. You are posting on a forum where 50%+ of the fans are American. Do you expect them to care a lot about the play of Japanese or Ukrainian footballers? This forum could not represent "overrated", unless you are specifically talking about what people here think.

 

[KJS14]

The amount of completely missing the mark hot takes in this thread is starting to get underrated.

 

[S E P H]

I think you don't understand what overrated means. You are posting on a forum where 50%+ of the fans are American. Do you expect them to care a lot about the play of Japanese or Ukrainian footballers? This forum could not represent "overrated", unless you are specifically talking about what people here think.

Lets talk about good players regardless of where they're from. If they're from Mars, so be it. American players are overrated beyond this board due to cesspools like ESPN and their fake brought up hype to make "stories" nonsense.

 

[KJS14]

Lets talk about good players regardless of where they're from. If they're from Mars, so be it. American players are overrated beyond this board due to cesspools like ESPN and their fake brought up hype to make "stories" nonsense.

What's the difference between ESPN hyping up Pulisic and other young Americans vs the English media hyping up guys like Rashford?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Lets talk about good players regardless of where they're from. If they're from Mars, so be it. American players are overrated beyond this board due to cesspools like ESPN and their fake brought up hype to make "stories" nonsense.

But once again, you are talking about an organization that is US-based. In world football, they are not overrated nor talked about much.

 

[S E P H]

What's the difference between ESPN hyping up Pulisic and other young Americans vs the English media hyping up guys like Rashford?

Nothing, which is what I mentioned in my original post in this thread. Both overrate their countries players thousandfold even though the EPL is the best league in the world.

But once again, you are talking about an organization that is US-based. In world football, they are not overrated nor talked about much.

ESPN is a worldwide leader it sports my broheim, that's what they say.

 

[Il Mediano]

Underrated : Xhaka's rare talent of defending with his eyes



Crazy he had this many highlights in one game against a soon-to-be relegated club.

 

[KJS14]

Nothing, which is what I mentioned in my original post in this thread. Both overrate their countries players thousandfold even though the EPL is the best league in the world.

ESPN is a worldwide leader it sports my broheim, that's what they say.

Just because the media gives more coverage to their own country's players doesn't mean the players are overrated. ESPN covering Pulisic in the US is a good business decision on their part, but I don't think anyone values their opinion for anything football-related.

 

[les Habs]

For me there are two things that should be taken into consideration when you're talking about overrated/underrated players:

1. A player who is overrated isn't bad and a player who is underrated isn't necessarily World Class.
2. I think it's important to say who overrates/underrates the player. Is it the media? Is it fans across the board? Is it the players supporter base? Or is more likely good 'ole HFBoards?

Looking at this thread, I'll comment on a few guys mentioned:

• Toni Kroos being overrated: Who better to start with? Guy is definitely overrated on this forum and despite the overwhelming response (where the hell have you guys been the past how many years I've been banging this drum?) you still get one take that completely overstates his level. Kroos is World Class, make no mistake about it, but Kroos isn't a top 5 midfielder.
• Roy Keane being overrated/underrated: I don't really see him as being underrated. However he's most certainly not overrated. Love him or hate him he was huge for United for years
• Griezmann being overrated: Sorry wee baby, but he's underrated around here. People questioning a potential 100 million price tag right now is almost shocking. He's a player who can change a match on his own and there aren't a lot of other guys out there who can do it as much as he can. Despite Atleti's overall squad strength, he is the X factor that takes them to another level.
• Pogba being overrated: I don't see it. Is it the endorsements he gets? Is is the transfer fee? Is it the English media? Apart from that I'm not seeing it. I definitely don't see him being overrated on this forum.
• Dybala being overrated: Again, I'm not seeing it. Overrated by whom exactly? I don't think his being at Juve is doing him a lot of favors either.
• Insigne being underrated: Not on this forum.
• Pjanic being underrated: Definitely not on this forum.

I genuinely feel you could replace Kroos on the Real Madrid squad with a bunch of midfielders and they probably still win as much, if not more.

You had me until you got here. I actually think Kroos has been a great fit at Madrid when it comes to the offensive end. His passing game is fantastic no matter where he plays, but specifically with Madrid he's had players like "BBC" to profit from his presence.

I have never seen a reason to move away from the view I developed watching Kroos over the years: he's a catalyst. In a well-oiled machine, he makes things go even smoother. If there's sand in the cogs, he's not one to pick the team up and carry it into working. There's obvious value to what he does, and whether those abilities make him a top-5/top-10/top-20 midfielder is for everyone to decide. I'll still take Thiago over him, just about any day.

I won't name names, but it's nice to have a sensible Bayern supporter.

Some people have their heads so far up their own asses.

Congratulations! The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. In all seriousness though, while there may not have been a resounding chorus of Kroos supporters here, it was like having Paris Dennard here every time the guy came up. He was definitely overrated and as this thread is evidence he still is by at least two of you.

Bro, Weah scores a goal here and half of the football forum is doing this pose...

Pulisic is the most talked about player after Pogba and Modric for some unknown reason. Davies is now rated as one of the top 3 players in Bayern's youth system (I know his country). Donovan is considered a hero for a second-rate footballer. Bradley was known as the one of the most up and coming CM's before the 2014 World Cup. Dempsey was hyped up as a beast for the Spurs. Jozy Altidore was so underrated. Tim Howard should've won multiple PFA awards.

You blokes are crazy.

Hey dickhead, did I give you permission to post my photo? Otherwise, carry on with the good fight re: Pulisic sista!

 

[Moncherry]

Nothing is hand-picked. We are better than the whole European second tier results-wise, but I guess that doesn't matter to some, like you. You'd rather fawn over the club teams the players play for, not recognizing that players from the Americas are at a big disadvantage with playing in the best leagues.

And you can try to separate the two, but of course players and team results go hand in hand. Thats how sports works. The most talented teams more often than not play the best. Flukes occasionally happen, but not over a 20 year period of time. How could American players be overrated when the National team is incredibly underrated? They have magic powers that other countries don't have? Of course not. The whole equilibrium is off. If the USA was located in the EU, our players would on average be at much better club teams and fans would rate them much higher.

Its the same with other countries in the Americas who are at the same disadvantage as we are in that aspect. The only countries in the Americas who get their players properly rated are the two powerhouses, Brazil and Argentina. The rest of the teams are perpetually underrated and have underrated players because have a bunch of players on their team not in Europe. Even then, Brazil and Argentina also at times have some underrated players that no one here has seen because they are playing their club football in South America.

To clarify, I don't have any argument about whether or not American players are rated properly or not because I don't care and that was never my point, I was only interested in your comparison to the performance of those particular European teams.

You must have a conveniently defined second-tier of European teams, because they don't. Teams outside the upper echelon of UEFA make it to the knockout round every tournament, some regularly. That's not outperforming every non-elite European team. Making it past the group stage is nothing out of the ordinary for teams like Switzerland or Sweden. Unless you think those aren't second-tier teams? Until recently, even a team like Belgium could have been defined as a second-tier team in UEFA. The top European contenders aren't the only ones who perform well in World Cups. You don't routinely do better than them, you rarely even beat them when you play them.

Your point about the disadvantage of playing in weaker leagues and not being properly rated is nonsense as well, the best players from countries with a weaker domestic league eventually make it to the stronger leagues. How many of the best Uruguayan, Chilean, or Colombian players are stuck in South America? If they are, it's either because they're still young or they won't be there for long. The majority of their squads are based in Europe regardless. Do those national teams unfairly underrate players from their own leagues? I don't see those teams being very underrated either. The same applies to players from the lesser leagues and national teams of Europe.

 

[les Habs]

I suppose I shouldn't bother posting if I'm not going to contribute:

Underrated:

• Dani Alves: From a career perspective he is in my experience massively underrated. A lot of that has been online (and not just on this forum), but I've even seen Barça supporters underrate him. I'm not going to bother naming somebody else, but if Dani Alves were a choir boy (and I won't go further than that) he'd have been lauded.
• Casemiro: Still to this day I find him underrated on this forum. Ability vs performance and his performances take the day. He was a massive bargain for Madrid (as I've said numerous times) and he's been very important to their success the past how many seasons.
• Bale: To a degree at the moment. I think that's in part down to his inconsistency, his being benched, his injuries and his teammates who overshadow him. Still he's quietly grown the past couple of years and I think he'll definitely make an impact this season.
• Pique: Yes he's my favorite player (duh, I like cool players) and I'm not going to say he's the best of his generation (that would be Thiago Silva). Still he's one of the best of his generation and on this forum other guys have been billed ahead of him on and off for years and they haven't had the career he has. Just have a look at this year's draft, last year's draft, the draft before that...
• Messi: I wasn't going to mention him, but I will. He's definitely underrated on this forum. Some will say "Messi is better than Ronaldo but..." and then go on and underrate Messi. It's very clear that a lot of people on this forum who like to comment on Messi don't watch him with any regularity.
• Neymar: I'm sure I'll get credit for the Barça connection, but for the record I don't really like him and never have really. That said his time at Barça was underrated and even right now his level is underrated. People clearly don't like him and are way too focused on his "theatrics" (or at least their perception of theatrics). In fact I'd go so far as to say that unless people are actually watching him regularly, and few here do if you ask me, he's not even discussed enough.

Overrated:

• Ramos: To this day people will still tell you that he's the best CB in the game. He's not nearly as consistent as he gets credit for. The guy can tank in a major tournament for Spain and walk away largely unscathed. Despite his disciplinary record he's well protected by the refs too. The shit he gets away with in La Liga would definitely get him in a lot more trouble in say the Premiership.
• Ronaldo: I read a post here recently about stats being used to rate a player and not actually their performances. Well if you want a player who is overrated based on his stats, look no further. That's not to say his stats aren't incredible and he's a fantastic player in his own way, but much like Messi it's clear a lot of folks who like to talk about Ronaldo don't watch him with much regularity.
• Busquets: A fantastic player and the best in the business to be sure, but around here he's on the "cool" list for some and thus you don't read much about any dips in form. He's not provided a lot of opportunities recently, but even last season had an albeit small dry spell.
• Marcelo: I swear at least one person here has called him the best fullback ever. People around here either have short memories or more likely missed a good chunk of his career. Much like Busquets any bad form is completely ignored or more likely unknown.
• Varane: I'm the first person to draft him here (much like Kroos) and I think he's going to be the best CB of his generation, which I've been saying for years. Still he's been notably inconsistent thus far. That's not to blame him entirely considering his being injured and rotated. Still I find his reputation here is based on his ability and potential more than his actually performances.
• Godin: Another guy who's been overrated around here for some time. Again, doesn't make him a bad player, but Atleti's system protects him. Put him on plenty of other sides and he'd be exposed.

Anyway, one could go on and on about players being underrated and overrated on this forum alone.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

To clarify, I don't have any argument about whether or not American players are rated properly or not because I don't care and that was never my point, I was only interested in your comparison to the performance of those particular European teams.

You must have a conveniently defined second-tier of European teams, because they don't. Teams outside the upper echelon of UEFA make it to the knockout round every tournament, some regularly. That's not outperforming every non-elite European team. Making it past the group stage is nothing out of the ordinary for teams like Switzerland or Sweden. Unless you think those aren't second-tier teams? Until recently, even a team like Belgium could have been defined as a second-tier team in UEFA. The top European contenders aren't the only ones who perform well in World Cups. You don't routinely do better than them, you rarely even beat them when you play them.

Your point about the disadvantage of playing in weaker leagues and not being properly rated is nonsense as well, the best players from countries with a weaker domestic league eventually make it to the stronger leagues. How many of the best Uruguayan, Chilean, or Colombian players are stuck in South America? If they are, it's either because they're still young or they won't be there for long. The majority of their squads are based in Europe regardless. Do those national teams unfairly underrate players from their own leagues? I don't see those teams being very underrated either. The same applies to players from the lesser leagues and national teams of Europe.

Give or take one or two

The top tier: Spain, Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, England

Second tier: Switzerland, Sweden, Croatia, Serbia, Austria, Bosnia, Greece, Slovakia, Slovenia, Scotland, Ireland, Ukraine, Russia, Poland, Denmark

We've consistently had better results than those teams.

Round of 16 appearances in last 5 World Cups:

5: Brazil, Mexico
4: Germany, Spain, England, Argentina
3: United States, Belgium, Sweden, Japan, Switzerland, Portugal, Netherlands, Uruguay

Of the "3's", only teams from that second tier in Europe are Sweden and Switzerland

Switzerland has the same amount of appearances at the tournament as us in that stretch with one less knockout win. Sweden has the same amount of knockout wins as us in that stretch, but one less WC appearance.

So yes, I think we have consistently shown ourselves to be better than all of the second tier over the past 20 years.

If you think that European players don't have a big advantage in getting jobs with teams in the top European leagues, we might as well end the discussion there. There are restrictions in every league in Europe.

 

[Il Mediano]

 

[Evilo]

You clearly are bothered by that discussion from last year or whenever it is. I stand by what I said. We'll see who ends up being right.

You continue to ignore the issue.
Both times, you overrated Pulisic BIG TIME. Which is proof that, as I said, SOME people contonue to overrate SOME US players.

 

[Evilo]

He's not nearly as effective as he should be given the tools he possesses and the hype that follows him around.

He was from France. On and off the pitch.

 

[Evilo]

Toni Kroos being overrated: Who better to start with? Guy is definitely overrated on this forum and despite the overwhelming response (where the hell have you guys been the past how many years I've been banging this drum?) you still get one take that completely overstates his level. Kroos is World Class, make no mistake about it, but Kroos isn't a top 5 midfielder.

• Roy Keane being overrated/underrated: I don't really see him as being underrated. However he's most certainly not overrated. Love him or hate him he was huge for United for years
• Griezmann being overrated: Sorry wee baby, but he's underrated around here. People questioning a potential 100 million price tag right now is almost shocking. He's a player who can change a match on his own and there aren't a lot of other guys out there who can do it as much as he can. Despite Atleti's overall squad strength, he is the X factor that takes them to another level.
• Pogba being overrated: I don't see it. Is it the endorsements he gets? Is is the transfer fee? Is it the English media? Apart from that I'm not seeing it. I definitely don't see him being overrated on this forum.
• Dybala being overrated: Again, I'm not seeing it. Overrated by whom exactly? I don't think his being at Juve is doing him a lot of favors either.
• Insigne being underrated: Not on this forum.
• Pjanic being underrated: Definitely not on this forum.

Kroos, Keane, Pogba, Insigne, Pjanic : agreed.
Griez tends to be overrated when he's talked about in the top 5 players. Like WBS said, when he gets voted top 3 at the WC, there's a problem.
He's a great player and WC. But Ballon d'Or contender he is not.
Dybala is a great young player. One poster definitely overrates him, but that's just one.

 

[Corto]

I love the Pogba statements here. Nobody rates Pogba among the top 3 CMs. Everyone ranks him top 10, where he belongs.
And yet, his WC was great. Much greater than several consensus top 5 CMs.

I think this is fair. He doesn't pretend like he's the world's best midfielder, and it's not his fault that so much money was paid.

I think he gets talked about too much by the English-EPL following media. He has a personality and is growing into a leader.
And he just had an excellent World Cup.

At this point, I think your average (let's call it knowledgeable) football person places Pogba as a top-10 CM who's still got room to grow.
And I don't think that's overrating him.

That said, I think a lot of people's opinions on who is overrated or underrated is formed after hearing the pundits - who are mostly awful.
Not all of them, but most of them.

...

Oh btw, great call on Skriniar. He's fantastic and still very young.

 

[Il Mediano]

Messi underrated? C'mon man. Even the most delusional of CR7 fans would put him no lower than #2. The rest of world football has him safely at the top.

If you want a legitimately underrated superstar , this is what it looks like :



And an underrated star:



These two could've played anywhere.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Totti was definitely not underrated in Spain. He is considered a legend, at least among those whom I discuss football with