Underrated/Overrated

[les Habs]

Most recently, Matteo Politano seems like a pretty big regret. We've been scouring the face of the earth looking for a left-footed RW after the Malcom debacle (thanks for that, btw ) , and Inter just bought an academy graduate of ours from Sassuolo for 25m who would probably fit the bill quite nicely. I think we only got 3m from him. Probably not a star, but a capable starter on a Champions League side - and he's Roman.

Alessio Romagnoli is the one that hurts the most in recent times, though. Left-footed CB , likely going to be the national team starter for the next decade at LCB. We got a good fee for him (at the time) , but I think if Monchi had've been in charge at the time , there's no way we would've moved him. You can't give up Roman gems like that - especially to Milan. Roma fans rationalize it by saying he's a Lazio fan (he is) , but still. Jamie Carragher was an Everton fan , it didn't force Liverpool to boot him out.

If we're going back a bit further, Aquilani is probably the most romanticized loss. Roma was in serious financial trouble and we sent him to Liverpool , which I think ruined a really promising talent. He was never the same after that , and ended up being a journeymen.

Probably no one on the level of a Thiago , but still certainly regrettable decisions , imo.

I asked because that was always my disappointment with Roma. They seemed to produce some good young players but not all of them get much of a chance. I'm of the opinion that they don't all have to be starters and it's important to have homegrown players in the squad.

I didn't know Romagnoli was a Lazio supporter. I can understand some dismay at that. I was just struck at the time that a player of his potential and a left-footed CB to boot was let go. Even Bertolacci at the time was one who I would have expected to be kept as a squad player, but the money for him at the time looked good and of course he doesn't seem like such a bad sale at the moment.

I remember hearing about Politano a few years back, but don't think anyone knew much about him. Still sounds like the sort I'm talking about. Of course Aquilani is another one. Maybe not Thiago level, but he was quite good when he left.

At least you have Florenzi. My favorite Roma player and a great example for the younger guys to take note of. On a weird side note, I used to play Roma with Football Manager back in the day and I used to get Pastore before he went to PSG and Sanson and now they're both there, albeit rather late.

 

[S E P H]

I asked because that was always my disappointment with Roma. They seemed to produce some good young players but not all of them get much of a chance. I'm of the opinion that they don't all have to be starters and it's important to have homegrown players in the squad.

I didn't know Romagnoli was a Lazio supporter. I can understand some dismay at that. I was just struck at the time that a player of his potential and a left-footed CB to boot was let go. Even Bertolacci at the time was one who I would have expected to be kept as a squad player, but the money for him at the time looked good and of course he doesn't seem like such a bad sale at the moment.

I remember hearing about Politano a few years back, but don't think anyone knew much about him. Still sounds like the sort I'm talking about. Of course Aquilani is another one. Maybe not Thiago level, but he was quite good when he left.

At least you have Florenzi. My favorite Roma player and a great example for the younger guys to take note of. On a weird side note, I used to play Roma with Football Manager back in the day and I used to get Pastore before he went to PSG and Sanson and now they're both there, albeit rather late.

Roma is the Spurs of Italy.

 

[Stray Wasp]

• Marcelo: I swear at least one person here has called him the best fullback ever.

Thank you for bringing to my attention this splendidly unhinged idea.

 

[Il Mediano]

I asked because that was always my disappointment with Roma. They seemed to produce some good young players but not all of them get much of a chance. I'm of the opinion that they don't all have to be starters and it's important to have homegrown players in the squad.

Yeah, it's been an issue. For a club like Roma that actually has the best academy in the country (in terms of producing pro's) , it has been at times woefully under-utilized. If you can keep a Politano for free , and maybe not spend 15m on Diego Perotti (for example) it goes a long way for a club constantly battling with FFP and looking to gain revenue/save money.

It's a cultural and organizational problem for Roma. The fans are ridiculously harsh and impatient with young players (many wanted Lorenzo Pellegrini sold this summer) , and Roma, until Monchi and EDF, have been stuck in a short-term mindset for years. It seems, for the first time in a long time, we have a legitimate plan , and it starts with developing youth.

At least you have Florenzi. My favorite Roma player and a great example for the younger guys to take note of. On a weird side note, I used to play Roma with Football Manager back in the day and I used to get Pastore before he went to PSG and Sanson and now they're both there, albeit rather late.

Yeah, I love Flo. He's likely a utility-man on an elite squad , but he always gives his best and would die for the shirt. We also have Lorenzo and Luca Pellegrini in the squad , along with De Rossi of course. So it's not too bad. There's also a kid by the name of Alessio Riccardi who should be breaking into the 1st team squad in the not-too-distant future.

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What's your take on La Masia these days? I saw you lost a kid to Dortmund and Juve. Puig looks legit, though - or at least he did in the friendly I watched.

 

[les Habs]

Thank you for bringing to my attention this splendidly unhinged idea.

The pleasure was all mine sir! Considering all of your contributions over the years it's the very least I could do.

 

[Il Mediano]

Roma is the Spurs of Italy.

Not quite. Roma has won a league title this century.

 

[les Habs]

Yeah, it's been an issue. For a club like Roma that actually has the best academy in the country (in terms of producing pro's) , it has been at times woefully under-utilized. If you can keep a Politano for free , and maybe not spend 15m on Diego Perotti (for example) it goes a long way for a club constantly battling with FFP and looking to gain revenue/save money.

It's a cultural and organizational problem for Roma. The fans are ridiculously harsh and impatient with young players (many wanted Lorenzo Pellegrini sold this summer) , and Roma, until Monchi and EDF, have been stuck in a short-term mindset for years. It seems, for the first time in a long time, we have a legitimate plan , and it starts with developing youth.



Yeah, I love Flo. He's likely a utility-man on an elite squad , but he always gives his best and would die for the shirt. We also have Lorenzo and Luca Pellegrini in the squad , along with De Rossi of course. So it's not too bad. There's also a kid by the name of Alessio Riccardi who should be breaking into the 1st team squad in the not-too-distant future.

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What's your take on La Masia these days? I saw you lost a kid to Dortmund and Juve. Puig looks legit, though - or at least he did in the friendly I watched.

Well that's why I asked because there always seems to be somebody good coming up through the ranks.

Monchi should do well for you and you were already doing well before he arrived if you consider the Marquinhos' and Salahs. Forget who the chain smoker was from a few years ago, but he made some nice transfers. I wouldn't sweat Malcom either. We shouldn't have bought him and I would rather take a punt on Neres were it me.

Yeah, Pellegrini looks like a really good player to hold on to. I agree on the supporters in my experience. Never really willing to give the younger guys a chance. I'll have to look up Riccardi. An FM save of Roma is long overdue, but I don't even play with Barça much.

La Masia? A few things:

• Still producing plenty of talent.
• Mismanaged at the B team level because they're too focused on staying in Segunda rather than developing players. So they buy players strictly for the B team (and I'm sure to make a small sum at some point) and the development of the canteranos suffers. That said with Pimiento's arrival it sounds like that is changing.
• First team managers like Tito and Lucho neglected certain talents and they moved on. Thiago and Grimaldo for example, but the list is longer. On the one hand there are few opportunities to "experiment" during the season considering the level of competition. On the other hand players like them should have had more chances. Still in a case like Thiago's I think he could have demonstrated more patience. Of course they all can't make it and when somebody leaves there always seems to be a replacement when it comes to the midfielders.
• We've lost more than just those two. Part of is definitely down to money. They can't sign the same sort of contract with Barça they can in say England. So that puts the club at a disadvantage. I can see it from both sides, but I think if their dream is to truly play for Barça and they think they're good enough they'd stick out it a bit longer rather than jump when they're 16. The old song and dance about Cesc was that he'd never get a chance, yet when you look at he squad when he left it looked as though he had a clear shot at the first team. My personal approach would be that if they leave you don't bring them back. If they had a good reason for leaving like Pique then I can see making an exception or if they're willing to take a paycut to help make the deal. Generally though I would take a hard stance on this. I think Xavi said something along these lines as well. I can't say too much about those two though. I don't follow La Masia as much and every time a kid leaves he's referred to as a "pearl". Gomez from the little I saw looked good.
• Puig definitely looks the business. His size bothers me a little bit, but so far it doesn't seem to be an issue. Alena is technically ahead of him in the pecking order though and I'd like to see him get a shot this season. It's just frustrating because on the one hand you've got guys who shouldn't be there like Vidal. Not saying he's a bad deal, but I really don't think he's necessary and guys like him, Gomes, Paulinho and even Denis hold back the canteranos (not to mention that overrated bum Arda Turan who I never wanted to see us sign - you want to see a guy who was overrated on this forum he was another one) . I want to see Rafinha, Alena and even Samper get a shot. I really hope we get "stuck" with Samper this season. On the other hand you do need to make some buys like Arthur and you want to buy a guy like de Jong. I know Roma has sold to make money in the past, but I feel it's similar to what Roma goes through but just more difficult.

 

[Corto]

Rather harsh. They are definitely not as knowledgeable nor enjoyable in comparison to some of the bigger European outlets, but they get an unfair rating from us fans.

No, no. They're awful. Not "not very good", not "sometimes okay", they're consistently absolute rubbish.
Nichol, Shaka, McManaman, Burley, Gab Freaking Marcotti....

The only light in the darkness of ESPN is Sid Lowe. Bless him, how he can suffer talking to those ignorant loudmouths is beyond me.

 

[Il Mediano]

ven Samper get a shot. I really hope we get "stuck" with Samper this season. On the other hand you do need to make some buys like Arthur and you want to buy a guy like de Jong. I know Roma has sold to make money in the past, but I feel it's similar to what Roma goes through but just more difficult.

Dear lord, I'm all in on Arthur. I think he's gunna be great. And yeah de Jong is about as Barca as it gets , I watched a scouting video of his called "false CB" or something like that. He's incredibly dynamic/brave in possession for a CB/CDM. You guys may as well get De Ligt too while you're at it, he's absurdly good for his age. I'm just glad we somehow snagged Kluivert.

Yeah, I could write an essay on Roma's finances and transfer strategy with Sabatini (the chain smoker), but I'm positive it would bore people to death. Essentially, we have to sell every year just to break even and comply with FFP. Our wages/costs are way outta proportion for the revenue we bring in , but Pallotta (the owner) feels remaining competitive is the only way to build the club ; rather than tear it all down and pay-off mass amounts of debt/run the club's costs relative to it's revenue (which is probably a Europa level) . Until we build a new stadium (which is an excruciating task with Italian bureaucracy/corruption), we'll be selling every year.

 

[Il Mediano]

No, no. They're awful. Not "not very good", not "sometimes okay", they're consistently absolute rubbish.
Nichol, Shaka, McManaman, Burley, Gab Freaking Marcotti....

The only light in the darkness of ESPN is Sid Lowe. Bless him, how he can suffer talking to those ignorant loudmouths is beyond me.

Julien Laurens and Raph Honigstein are usually the only ones worth listening to.

Nichol is the worst by far for me. He actually has no idea. The others occasionally say something insightful.

 

[Moncherry]

Give or take one or two

The top tier: Spain, Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, England

Second tier: Switzerland, Sweden, Croatia, Serbia, Austria, Bosnia, Greece, Slovakia, Slovenia, Scotland, Ireland, Ukraine, Russia, Poland, Denmark

We've consistently had better results than those teams.

Round of 16 appearances in last 5 World Cups:

5: Brazil, Mexico
4: Germany, Spain, England, Argentina
3: United States, Belgium, Sweden, Japan, Switzerland, Portugal, Netherlands, Uruguay

Of the "3's", only teams from that second tier in Europe are Sweden and Switzerland

Switzerland has the same amount of appearances at the tournament as us in that stretch with one less knockout win. Sweden has the same amount of knockout wins as us in that stretch, but one less WC appearance.

So yes, I think we have consistently shown ourselves to be better than all of the second tier over the past 20 years.

If you think that European players don't have a big advantage in getting jobs with teams in the top European leagues, we might as well end the discussion there. There are restrictions in every league in Europe.

The majority of those teams don't even qualify regularly, so it's easy to outperform teams that aren't even there because they have a harder qualifying route. Switzerland and Croatia are the only ones who qualified for as much World Cups during that period of time. Switzerland has the same amount of appearances in the knockout round and Croatia failed often but still made it to a final. Ireland, Slovakia, Ukraine, Greece and Denmark all made the round of 16 the last time they were in the World Cup. You might outperform some of them in certain tournaments, you certainly don't outperform all of them as a whole.

So what's the argument? American players are underrated because of that? Players from those countries are overrated? Well what American players are as good as Denmark's, Croatia's, Poland's, Serbia's, etc. star players?

Why don't South American players suffer from that disadvantage then? All the best South American players play in Europe or have played there. But Americans don't make it to top European leagues because of quotas? That's a pathetic excuse.

 

[Islesfan22]

If the Americans who post here can't admit that America does not produce top class players well then those fans just have blinders on. USA soccer is more worried about growing the MLS then producing top class players.

 

[bleedblue1223]

If the Americans who post here can't admit that America does not produce top class players well then those fans just have blinders on. USA soccer is more worried about growing the MLS then producing top class players.

Yeah, we obviously don't. The top ones in recent times have been Donovan, Dempsey, Howard, and Bradley, as well as some others, but these were at least the main ones developed in the states. These players peaked as starters for teams upper mid-table clubs, like Everton. Other Americans like Jones or Johnson reached similar heights, but not really American developed, and also not top class.

Pulisic has that potential, but he still has to get there first. If he makes it, he'd be the first real top class player.

As far as USA soccer not worried about developing top class players, I disagree. It ultimately comes down to talent pool, and soccer is way down on the list of sports in the States. The top athletes that could be top class soccer players simply choose other sports. This is ultimately the reason why the national team didn't quality, the team just wasn't good enough.

I'm really not sure which specific American player has been underrated or is underrated. I also don't think many can make the case that they've been overrated either.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

The majority of those teams don't even qualify regularly, so it's easy to outperform teams that aren't even there because they have a harder qualifying route. Switzerland and Croatia are the only ones who qualified for as much World Cups during that period of time. Switzerland has the same amount of appearances in the knockout round and Croatia failed often but still made it to a final. Ireland, Slovakia, Ukraine, Greece and Denmark all made the round of 16 the last time they were in the World Cup. You might outperform some of them in certain tournaments, you certainly don't outperform all of them as a whole.

So what's the argument? American players are underrated because of that? Players from those countries are overrated? Well what American players are as good as Denmark's, Croatia's, Poland's, Serbia's, etc. star players?

Why don't South American players suffer from that disadvantage then? All the best South American players play in Europe or have played there. But Americans don't make it to top European leagues because of quotas? That's a pathetic excuse.

I just put facts in front of you. If you want to argue about the importance of facts and say Croatia can be terrible for most times and then one very good tournament makes them better than a bunch of good tournaments, its a valid argument, but lets not dispute facts. I personally believe that being consistently good but not great over a long period of time is better than being great once in a short tournament. If we are talking about a short tournament, we have to acknowledge that flukes can happen. Croatia was not the second most talented team in the 2018 WC, but they got an easy draw and did well that month of that year. Fair play to them. However, we have for 20 years demonstrated a consistent level at this tournament. I'll take that.

Also, teams not qualifying doesn't get them off the hook. I think the USA could've put up a much better showing at the 2018 World Cup, despite not qualifying, than a number of teams at the tournament. But its only an excuse. Not qualifying is even worse than going out in the group stage. Not qualifying consistently is not something that should be used as an excuse. It should be used to show where that team actually stands that they can't even get into the biggest tournament in football.

As I already mentioned, equilibrium for players from the Americas, aside from Brazil and Argentina, is way off. Look at the rosters of any of the teams from the Americas at the WC. Players who play in the Americas. Players who the majority of European fans don't watch play. Of course they'll be underrated. If the USA was located in the EU, our players would on average be regarded as better and would play for better club teams. None of that ends up mattering though in a tournament like the World Cup where its best on best and club teams don't matter. We show up there, and outplay the European second-tier on a consistent basis. Its not a fluke or overachievement. Your side needs to start adjusting for this in their assessments. But of course that won't happen. Everything is based on Europe. All these teams from the Americas are minnows because they have players on their teams that play outside Europe and European fans don't watch play.

 

[Islesfan22]

Nobody expected Croatia to reach the Semis in 1998 or Finals in 2018 but they did. Sure Croatia had the easier side of the draw this time around but both generations had superb midfields which is a big reason why they went so far in the World Cup both times. When USA can produce top class players like Modric Suker in one generation mixed in with some very good players maybe then we can talk about possibly winning a World Cup one day. Until that day happens unless USA has a miracle Greece like run its highly unlikely to happen.

 

[robertmac43]

No, no. They're awful. Not "not very good", not "sometimes okay", they're consistently absolute rubbish.

Again I think it is harsh. I don't like the guys and am by no means defending them; I just think they get a lot of tough critics when really we do not know what goes on behind the scenes in terms of scripting, production, topic choice, etc. A lot goes in to these media outlets and I try to give the ones giving the news the benefit of the doubt as much as possible (whether they deserve it or not).

 

[JayKing]

Honestly, I'd say Pogba is properly rated, but gets criticized more than he should considering where he is rated.. Top 10 midfielder with top 3 potential but criticized as if people were already putting him in the top 3.

 

[JayKing]

Underrated: Cavani. People overlook him way too easily in the "best striker in the world" debate due to playing in Ligue 1. His performances with Uruguay compared to Suarez as well as Suarez's general form with Barcelona last season highlight that. People still easily include Suarez in the top 3/5 strikers, yet Cavani is sometimes nowhere to be found on those lists

 

[Evilo]

Cavani is amazing.
He has poor ball control, is a poor passer and his overall technique is weak.
Everything else, he ranks top 3. His intelligence, his work rate, his nose for the goal, his placement (!!!), his play off the ball, his defensive work, his pressing, his aerial game, his leadership, his one touch volleys, etc...

 

[Cassano]

Invincibles were overrated.

It's nice that they're the only team that accomplished this, but Arsenal had a better team in 2002.

Underrated: Ashley Cole. Don't @ me, in his prime I take him over the other LBs of this generation.

 

[Halladay]

Neuer is underappreciated. Sure he is recognized as the better goalie now, but he probably is the best goalie ever.

 

[cujo1117]

underrated: M. Carrick

 

[Il Mediano]

Underrated: Ashley Cole. Don't @ me, in his prime I take him over the other LBs of this generation.

There's really not that many great LB's in their prime at the moment , so it's probably only Alaba or Marcelo that you could compare him to.

Marcelo is so freakish in the final 3rd , that I'd probably lean towards him , but that could be recency bias on my part. Cole was definitely a great player.

 

[Il Mediano]

Overrated: Carlo Ancelotti

Underrated: Leo Jardim

 

[S E P H]

Not quite. Roma has won a league title this century.

I get that, I was talking about recently...like last decade since like three years ago every was claiming them main contenders to Juventus and always failed.