GDT: UFC on ABC: Holloway vs. Kattar

[I am not exposed]

Ortega/Volkanovski should be next for the title.

Then Max gets the winner of that. His performance today earned him another title shot (after Volk and Ortega fight). I wasn't keen on Volk vs. Max 3, and figured he would have to beat another ranked opponent in impressive fashion to get a shot. He certainly did that today!

 

[LSCII]

I dunno, I don't remember it that way. I think he didn't give Poirier enough respect and thought he could just eat the power the same way he can at FW. He still landed his fair share and it was a decently close fight. I think in the rematch he fights smarter.

McGregor doesn't have Poirier's endurance. Holloway would finish him IMO.

I'd like to see that fight. Last time they went, which was obviously years ago now, McGregor partially tore his ACL and Max hadn't yet come into his own like he has now. Would be very interesting to watch. McGregor's power vs Max's pace.

 

[CDJ]

Volkanovski/Holloway 2 was obviously super close, but there's a bit of revisionist history going on with their first fight. That was a very clear Volkanovski win.

yeah the first one was close in that Max was never really in grave danger but he clearly got outpointed

I’m of the belief Max won the second one like I feel most are. I really did not like that decision at all but when broken down on tape you can make an argument for Volkanovski. I just think Holloway did significantly more damage in that fight and it’s not like the volume was lopsided



woke up today and thought of the main event last night. I can’t call it the most dominant performance I’ve ever seen because it wasn’t Deus da Guerra vs Benavidez and there was no finish but my goodness

I’ve never seen somebody get lit on fire like that. I think Kattar would’ve been better off getting finished in round 2 or 3. He’s got that Boston heart though. Kinda wish Chartier threw in the towel in the middle of round 4 but that’s something that Kattar just wouldn’t allow

it was almost worst that he kept throwing vicious elbows back at Max. Herb couldn’t stop the fight in good conscience but he was eating 5-10 for every haymaker he’d throw in response to try and get out of the pocket

Too tough for his own good last night

 

[pistolpete11]

yeah the first one was close in that Max was never really in grave danger but he clearly got outpointed in the first one

I’m of the belief Max won the second one like I feel most are. I really did not like that decision at all but when broken down on tape you can make an argument for Volkanovski. I just think Holloway did significantly more damage in that fight and it’s not like the volume was lopsided



woke up today and thought of the main event last night. I can’t call it the most dominant performance I’ve ever seen because it wasn’t Deus da Guerra vs Benavidez and there was no finish but my goodness

I’ve never seen somebody get lit on fire like that. I think Kattar would’ve been better off getting finished in round 2 or 3. He’s got that Boston heart though. Kinda wish Chartier threw in the towel in the middle of round 4 but that’s something that Kattar just wouldn’t allow

it was almost worst that he kept throwing vicious elbows back at Max. Herb couldn’t stop the fight in good conscience but he was eating 5-10 for every haymaker he’d throw in response to try and get out of the pocket

Too tough for his own good last night

Yeah, you need to know not only your fighter, but the opponent. After the 3rd, Kattar needed a finish. Max isn't going away from one shot. Max isn't tiring. Max isn't letting up. Kattar doesn't have any BJJ game to speak of. So how does he win that fight? And by result he took an insane amount of damage in the 4th for no reason. And they still put him back out there for the 5th.

I don't know. I guess it is the fighter code and they don't want to be looked down upon by his fellow fighter or something, but everybody knew he wasn't winning that fight after the 3rd. I for one wouldn't care if he quit. I still think Pettis is a bad mother f***er even though his corner stopped the Tony fight because he was getting f***ed up and had a broken hand.

 

[CDJ]

I mean this is just insane

 

[BGDDYKWL]

Loved the scoring in the Condit fight. And this is coming from a big wrestling fan. You shouldn't get awarded for a takedown if you get markedly outstruck after you land it. 30-27 was correct. Damage > control.

I'm by no means saying this makes me right, but this is why I want Max-Volkanovski III. We're gonna see Ortega fight for the belt, and we very possibly could've seen Kattar if he didn't run into Max. These guys simply aren't on Max's level. That was an absolute clinic.

I thought Herb did a great job of not stopping the fight. These guys talk prefight and if the fighter asks the ref not to stop it, which I'm sure happened here, I have no problem with the ref respecting that. Every time it was close Kattar would throw a nasty left elbow, that, let's face it, could've been a game-changer if it landed.

Between Max yelling at the announcing crew about his boxing mid-fight and then saying post-fight that he's sticking around to step in to fight Conor/Poirier should something happen there... Good stuff.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Just finished the card on pvr, that was an absolutely insane fight my god.

Both guys gained a big fan here, I absolutely would've thrown in the towel in the 4th round and think the fight should've been stopped several times.

In 2021 we know more than enough about CTE, subjecting Kattar to that much damage is irresponsible.

But I'll give Kattar huge credit for being all heart and not giving up, and even looking decent with strikes in rd 5.
Tanner boser said it best, "kattar is one of the toughest human beings on the planet"

And obviously Max looked completely unbelievable, like he was on whatever drug they take in Limitless.
Give him a title shot immediately after he's 100% again.

 

[member 51464]

MMA is so wild sometimes. Watch something happen to one of the fighters next Saturday, then Max step in and win and face off with Do Bronx for the right to lose to Khabib or something, lol.

 

[KapG]

I mean this is just insane

Over there slipping punches while not even looking at the guy lol!!!

 

[chicagoskycam]

MMA is so wild sometimes. Watch something happen to one of the fighters next Saturday, then Max step in and win and face off with Do Bronx for the right to lose to Khabib or something, lol.

Dana kind of put the kibosh on that, who knows. Maybe if Max ended the fight ealier.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Katter has a sore face

 

[jcs0218]

MMA is so wild sometimes. Watch something happen to one of the fighters next Saturday, then Max step in and win and face off with Do Bronx for the right to lose to Khabib or something, lol.

Max would be smart to not get involved in that sort of thing. Especially after a 5 round fight this past weekend.

He will probably be able to get one of those fighters at some point. There is no use taking the fight when you wouldn't be 100%.

 

[pistolpete11]

Max would be smart to not get involved in that sort of thing. Especially after a 5 round fight this past weekend.

He will probably be able to get one of those fighters at some point. There is no use taking the fight when you wouldn't be 100%.

I say this as a huge Max fan, but that was kind of a phony...whatever you call it...call out, offer, whatever. He knows he's not getting that fight. Conor and Poirier are already there. The chances of them getting hurt or getting COVID at this point are pretty slim. If they miss weight (which I don't think either of them have ever missed weight), they will just fight anyway. If something does happen and one of them can't fight, they will probably just give the fight to Chandler or Hooker. Also, he dominated, but he still took some damage, so he probably has a medical suspension. So I mean, it sounds cool, but it ain't happening.

 

[pistolpete11]

Loved the scoring in the Condit fight. And this is coming from a big wrestling fan. You shouldn't get awarded for a takedown if you get markedly outstruck after you land it. 30-27 was correct. Damage > control.

I'm by no means saying this makes me right, but this is why I want Max-Volkanovski III. We're gonna see Ortega fight for the belt, and we very possibly could've seen Kattar if he didn't run into Max. These guys simply aren't on Max's level. That was an absolute clinic.

I thought Herb did a great job of not stopping the fight. These guys talk prefight and if the fighter asks the ref not to stop it, which I'm sure happened here, I have no problem with the ref respecting that. Every time it was close Kattar would throw a nasty left elbow, that, let's face it, could've been a game-changer if it landed.

Between Max yelling at the announcing crew about his boxing mid-fight and then saying post-fight that he's sticking around to step in to fight Conor/Poirier should something happen there... Good stuff.

Damage > control to a degree, but how much damage are ground strikes from your back really doing? These weren't Holland-Jacare strikes. It was just pitter-patter. Conor landed more than Khabib in the first round. Khabib still won that round in everybody's mind (expect Conor's). I'm OK with Condit winning, but I think it was 29-28.

I think if Herb stopped the fight in the 4th where it looked like Katter was barely able to stand, I don't think anybody would have batted an eye, but I agree that it was not on Herb as much as the corner. The rules are you need to be intelligently defending yourself. Kattar was covering up and throwing back, so I can see Herb's side. It's not his job to know what Kattar is capable of or what Max is capable of absorbing. Again, if he stopped it, I wouldn't have had a problem with it in this instance. But there might be an instance where the ref oversteps his authority and stops a fight when he shouldn't.

It's kind of like the Masvidal-Nate fight. Nate was getting busted up. Do I think he was going to be able to stop Masvidal in the 4th or 5th? Probably not, but it was not the doctor's decision to make. The doctor is there to determine if it is safe for Nate to fight, not whether he thinks Nate has a realistic chance to win the fight.

The ref should stop a fight if a fighter isn't intelligently defending themselves (or taps).
The doctor should stop a fight it it isn't safe for a fighter to continue to fight.
The corner should stop a fight if there is no realistic possibility of their fighter winning the fight.

That should be the division of responsibility IMO.

 

[m9]

Veteran high-level fighters at the level of Kattar (and Anthony Smith previously) have earned the benefit of the doubt in situations where they are taking damage like that. They are professionals and they (along with their team) have done it before and know the stakes vs the risks. If they want to keep fighting, so be it.

 

[darko]

Volkanovski can get f***ed, #notmychamp

If there's Volk-Max 3 .... Volk will win again.

 

[darko]

He won that last fight and it was a f***ing joke they gave it to Volkanovski.

Posted this before but here it is again.

Significant strikes (2nd fight)

Max: 19, 21, 15, 24, 23
Alex: 19, 22, 25, 34, 37

 

[LSCII]

Posted this before but here it is again.

Significant strikes (2nd fight)

Max: 19, 21, 15, 24, 23
Alex: 19, 22, 25, 34, 37

You throw that out but ignore Max dropping him twice in the first two rounds. That fact kind of adds some color to the numbers, no? Holloway won the second fight without a question, imo.

 

[bov]

I challenge anyone to watch rounds 3-5 of Volkanovski/Holloway 2 (ideally on mute) and say with a straight face that it was a bad decision. On overall body of work it's easy to see it for Holloway, but round by round scoring is a different story.

I thought Max was and is the better fighter after that one but reluctantly had to agree with the decision.

 

[pistolpete11]

Veteran high-level fighters at the level of Kattar (and Anthony Smith previously) have earned the benefit of the doubt in situations where they are taking damage like that. They are professionals and they (along with their team) have done it before and know the stakes vs the risks. If they want to keep fighting, so be it.

They aren't above criticism just because they are professionals. There's nothing the UFC, commission, ref, or doctors can or should do and I don't expect a fighter to quit. The corner needs to realize the situation their fighter is in and protect them from taking unnecessary damage. They didn't and deserve to be criticized. Unfortunately, it won't change anything.

 

[m9]

They aren't above criticism just because they are professionals. There's nothing the UFC, commission, ref, or doctors can or should do and I don't expect a fighter to quit. The corner needs to realize the situation their fighter is in and protect them from taking unnecessary damage. They didn't and deserve to be criticized. Unfortunately, it won't change anything.

The reason I bring up the level of people involved is because ultimately they know what they're doing better than the vast majority of people. Some might call it an appeal to authority, but whatever. You have a veteran in Kattar, an experienced corner group, an experienced UFC medical crew, and an experienced ref. They have multiple layers of protection. There are enough experienced people involved who at least should have made risk assessments and allowed the fight to go on. The lower you go down the rankings is where you will find issues. Random prelim fighter may not have the experience himself or an experienced corner. Random regional fighter may not have any of these layers of protection, much less all 4.

I do also find it weird that it seems nobody worries about damage when the fight is close. For example, Joanna took a ton of damage vs Weili but there was no talk of her corner ending it. Is that because it was still a competitive fight? Is the threshold that the corner should look to end it if there is major damage AND they aren't likely winning the fight on the scorecards? I guess I just don't know why one situation is different than the other if we are just talking about protecting a fighter from themself.

 

[pistolpete11]

The reason I bring up the level of people involved is because ultimately they know what they're doing better than the vast majority of people. Some might call it an appeal to authority, but whatever. You have a veteran in Kattar, an experienced corner group, an experienced UFC medical crew, and an experienced ref. They have multiple layers of protection. There are enough experienced people involved who at least should have made risk assessments and allowed the fight to go on. The lower you go down the rankings is where you will find issues. Random prelim fighter may not have the experience himself or an experienced corner. Random regional fighter may not have any of these layers of protection, much less all 4.

I do also find it weird that it seems nobody worries about damage when the fight is close. For example, Joanna took a ton of damage vs Weili but there was no talk of her corner ending it. Is that because it was still a competitive fight? Is the threshold that the corner should look to end it if there is major damage AND they aren't likely winning the fight on the scorecards? I guess I just don't know why one situation is different than the other if we are just talking about protecting a fighter from themself.

Even experienced corners rarely protect their fighters in MMA. I'm sure there are some examples, but the only recent one that comes to mind is Roufus and Pettis in the Tony fight. It's just not part of the culture and as Luke Thomas mentioned recently, it probably won't change until someone dies. Sounds dramatic, but there aren't any short term consequences to make them change.

I don't know that I would say people don't worry about it just because it is close, but it is different when the outcome is not decided. The threshold to me is having a path to victory. As I said the night of or the next day, you need to know not only your fighter, but the situation and the opponent. Kattar was not going to win on the scorecards, he was not going to KO Max Holloway, and he has little BJJ to speak of (2 submission wins outside of the UFC against guys without Wiki pages). He had no path to victory. All it did was subject him to more damage and it resulted in taking a record setting amount of damage in R4. And they STILL put him back out there for R5.

It's not just about protecting fighters from taking damage. It's fighting. Of course they are going to take damage. It's about protecting them from taking unnecessary damage. Kattar took unnecessary damage. He had nothing to gain by going back out for R4 and R5.

 

[m9]

Even experienced corners rarely protect their fighters in MMA. I'm sure there are some examples, but the only recent one that comes to mind is Roufus and Pettis in the Tony fight. It's just not part of the culture and as Luke Thomas mentioned recently, it probably won't change until someone dies. Sounds dramatic, but there aren't any short term consequences to make them change.

I don't know that I would say people don't worry about it just because it is close, but it is different when the outcome is not decided. The threshold to me is having a path to victory. As I said the night of or the next day, you need to know not only your fighter, but the situation and the opponent. Kattar was not going to win on the scorecards, he was not going to KO Max Holloway, and he has little BJJ to speak of (2 submission wins outside of the UFC against guys without Wiki pages). He had no path to victory. All it did was subject him to more damage and it resulted in taking a record setting amount of damage in R4. And they STILL put him back out there for R5.

It's not just about protecting fighters from taking damage. It's fighting. Of course they are going to take damage. It's about protecting them from taking unnecessary damage. Kattar took unnecessary damage. He had nothing to gain by going back out for R4 and R5.

Have to wonder how much 50k bonuses factor into these fighters going on, especially for guys who aren't the high-level earners.. if Kattar calls it after Round 3 he's likely not getting a 50k bonus. Doubt he gets one after Round 4, either. Coincidentally, 50k is pretty close to what his win bonus is so I guess he did end up "winning" financially at least.

The more I think about it, the more I just really put my trust in the referee if you have a guy who has a long history of being a good ref. That's the most important guy in there in these kind of fights.

 

[darko]

You throw that out but ignore Max dropping him twice in the first two rounds. That fact kind of adds some color to the numbers, no? Holloway won the second fight without a question, imo.

And neither was a 10-8 round so what's your point?

 

[LSCII]

And neither was a 10-8 round so what's your point?

I thought my point was more than clear; That looking at punch stat numbers doesn't really tell the whole story because it lacks the context of what actually occurred?

You think Volk won and that's fine. I think he lost and again, that's fine. It was a split decision in the end, which means nobody was really sure of who actually won and it could have gone either way. I had the first two rounds clearly for Max, and I gave him the third because of ring generalship. The 4th and 5th I had for Volk.