GDT: UFC 252: Miocic vs. Cormier 3

[Perennial]

How does he beat these guys without having the skills?

None of them threw jabs... ?

 

[CDJ]

DC is one of the best fighters of all time, just stop. He’s not skilled because his opponents didn’t throw jabs or some nonsense?


gtfo lol

 

[Chaels Arms]

I wonder what the profit difference is between putting on a huge fight like this right now with no crowd vs what they would have made during normal times with a packed arena.

 

[m9]

I wonder what the profit difference is between putting on a huge fight like this right now with no crowd vs what they would have made during normal times with a packed arena.

Their first two fights have averaged about 4-5 million of live gate per fight.

 

[m9]

I thought the first two rounds were great, but obviously the fight slowed at tomes due to Miocic's strategy of holding DC against the cage the rest of the way. It didn't bother me that much though.

 

[member 51464]

The criticism of DC's career should be about the folks he didn't face at heavyweight moreso than beating everyone but Jones and Stipe. If you want to be critical, there is some there there as the list of too heavyweights he didn't fight is longer than that of those he didn't.

That said, I don't think you can take away he still was a multi time champ in different organizations even. Had he not been an injury replacement in Strikeforce's Grand Prix, who knows how things may have played out for him. Regardless, he made the most of his opportunities.

 

[CDJ]

What often times gets lost with DC is that this was his 2nd athletic career that he BEGAN at the age of 30. His very first fight on the regional scene came only 11 years ago. He was past his athletic prime by the time he got to the UFC. Honestly a remarkable career when you factor that in

 

[Perennial]

DC is one of the best fighters of all time, just stop. He’s not skilled because his opponents didn’t throw jabs or some nonsense?


gtfo lol

Just stop? GTFO?

Try asking me what my interpretation of "one of the best fighters ever" is before you start barking orders...


Oh, and you obviously don't understand the nuance of sarcasm...

 

[m9]

The criticism of DC's career should be about the folks he didn't face at heavyweight moreso than beating everyone but Jones and Stipe. If you want to be critical, there is some there there as the list of too heavyweights he didn't fight is longer than that of those he didn't.

That said, I don't think you can take away he still was a multi time champ in different organizations even. Had he not been an injury replacement in Strikeforce's Grand Prix, who knows how things may have played out for him. Regardless, he made the most of his opportunities.

For sure. His resume at HW is good but isn't as great as some others. His whole claim to GOAT HW would have been beating Miocic again and since he doesn't have that it definitely hurts. He's probably a top 3 HW and a top 10 LHW which is pretty incredible and gets him in my overall top 5.

 

[pistolpete11]

For sore. His resume at HW is good but isn't as great as some others. His whole claim to GOAT HW would have been beating Miocic again and since he doesn't have that it definitely hurts. He's probably a top 3 HW and a top 10 LHW which is pretty incredible and gets him in my overall top 5.

You mean top 3 LHW and top 10 HW?

 

[m9]

You mean top 3 LHW and top 10 HW?

No, I actually have it the opposite but I haven't put much thought into it. I think right now at HW I can only say Miocic & Fedor are clearly ahead of him.

At LHW it's only Jones but there are another 5-10 guys who I think I would have to consider. I don't doubt Cormier could have beaten more guys, he just had such a short career at LHW with limited opposition.

 

[CDJ]

Just stop? GTFO?

Try asking me what my interpretation of "one of the best fighters ever" is before you start barking orders...


Oh, and you obviously don't understand the nuance of sarcasm...

You certainly aren’t conveying it well.....


So were you sarcastic when you were raising questions about his skills as a fighter?

Because he’s an elite wrestler, very good boxer, great dirty boxer, and can take backs and choke. You don’t win titles at multiple weight classes without being incredibly skilled

 

[Perennial]

Mike Gartner is 7th all-time in goals... does anyone consider him one of the best goal scorers ever?

Ron Francis is 5th all-time in points... does anyone consider him one of the best offensive players ever?

Neither guy was voted into the Top 100 Players All-Time list on the History Board...

Sometimes an athlete's resume makes them seem better than they were, and I think that's the case with Cormier...

Solid fighter who had a noteworthy peak, but I don't think he's in the conversation as one of the best to ever compete in MMA...

 

[pistolpete11]

No, I actually have it the opposite but I haven't put much thought into it. I think right now at HW I can only say Miocic & Fedor are clearly ahead of him.

At LHW it's only Jones but there are another 5-10 guys who I think I would have to consider. I don't doubt Cormier could have beaten more guys, he just had such a short career at LHW with limited opposition.

Hmmm. I always thought of him as a LHW first, but he did end up having more HW fights than LHW in UFC/Strrikeforce. And LHW is definitely a more storied division in the UFC than HW, so you might be right. I'd still probably put him at least top 5 LHW, though. A lot of those early legends of the LHW ended up losing a lot of fights and not just because they hung on too long.

 

[CDJ]

Mike Gartner is 7th all-time in goals... does anyone consider him one of the best goal scorers ever?

Ron Francis is 5th all-time in points... does anyone consider him one of the best offensive players ever?

Neither guy was voted into the Top 100 Players All-Time list on the History Board...

Sometimes an athlete's resume makes them seem better than they were, and I think that's the case with Cormier...

Solid fighter who had a noteworthy peak, but I don't think he's in the conversation as one of the best to ever compete in MMA...

You’re basically making a point FOR Cormier, those guys you listed are accumulators that have those numbers because they were around forever. Cormier started up very late past his athletic prime and was around for only about a decade and still managed to win the Strikeforce Grand Prix as well as multiple UFC titles at different weight classes

it’s a bad argument. He’s incredibly skilled. He’s not the GOAT at either weight class but that’s a different argument

 

[Perennial]

You’re basically making a point FOR Cormier, those guys you listed are accumulators that have those numbers because they were around forever. Cormier started up very late past his athletic prime and was around for only about a decade and still managed to win the Strikeforce Grand Prix as well as multiple UFC titles at different weight classes

it’s a bad argument. He’s incredibly skilled.

Bernie Nichols had a 70 goal/150 point season... do you consider him among the best to ever play hockey?

I just don't see Cormier among the most skilled fighters of all-time...

 

[m9]

Hmmm. I always thought of him as a LHW first, but he did end up having more HW fights than LHW in UFC/Strrikeforce. And LHW is definitely a more storied division in the UFC than HW, so you might be right. I'd still probably put him at least top 5 LHW, though. A lot of those early legends of the LHW ended up losing a lot of fights and not just because they hung on too long.

Yeah, it's tough. When you look at his LHW run it's a weird resume.

Two wins over Rumble are great. I feel like those get discounted a bit because it was such an easy style matchup for DC but that's just a credit to DC more than anything.

The Oezdemir win was fine. Gus fight was super close and a great fight, but that's probably his most impressive LHW win and I don't even know if he won. An old Silva on 2 days notice and an old Dan Henderson. Then the Patrick Cummins fight too.

And that's it. Add in the Jones losses and that's the entire Cormier LHW resume. I have no doubt at his peak he beats all the others, but he just didn't fight there long enough. How do I compare that to Rampage, Shogun, Chuck, Machida, and others? Even Bader has quietly built a good one.

I always have trouble factoring in those late career losses. I know they mean something, it's just hard to completely figure out how much. There's definitely something to preserving your legacy like so few guys in MMA have done.

 

[CDJ]

DC fought at the highest of levels for his entire career. He has two losses w/o controversy.

also your hockey/GOAT analogies are apples and oranges because the sport has been around for about a century longer


But say whatever you want, the Olympian isn’t skilled or whatever. You’re entitled to that opinion and I’m entitled to roll my eyes at it

 

[Perennial]

DC fought at the highest of levels for his entire career. He has two losses w/o controversy.

also your hockey/GOAT analogies are apples and oranges because the sport has been around for about a century longer


But say whatever you want, the Olympian isn’t skilled or whatever. You’re entitled to that opinion and I’m entitled to roll my eyes at it

I'm not saying he isn't skilled... just as I wouldn't say Nichols, Francis, and Gartner weren't skilled... I just don't have them among the most skilled ever in their respective sports

I think a fair comparison for Cormier in MMA would be Matt Hughes... very good fighter, but not among the most skilled fighters of all-time...

 

[member 51464]

Kind of wild that if not for shady management practices of Strikeforce, DC would not have replaced Overeem in the grand prix. Imagine a world where it was Overeem fighting to face Josh Barnett. Things look so different in the early DC career. He only had one more fight over there before coming to the UFC. Had he not been in the tourney, does he hang around there to chase the belt? Does the UFC want him so soon? Strange how little things can have such drastically different outcomes.

 

[pistolpete11]

Yeah, it's tough. When you look at his LHW run it's a weird resume.

Two wins over Rumble are great. I feel like those get discounted a bit because it was such an easy style matchup for DC but that's just a credit to DC more than anything.

The Oezdemir win was fine. Gus fight was super close and a great fight, but that's probably his most impressive LHW win and I don't even know if he won. An old Silva on 2 days notice and an old Dan Henderson. Then the Patrick Cummins fight too.

And that's it. Add in the Jones losses and that's the entire Cormier LHW resume. I have no doubt at his peak he beats all the others, but he just didn't fight there long enough. How do I compare that to Rampage, Shogun, Chuck, Machida, and others? Even Bader has quietly built a good one.

I always have trouble factoring in those late career losses. I know they mean something, it's just hard to completely figure out how much. There's definitely something to preserving your legacy like so few guys in MMA have done.

It's also weird because DC is older than Shogun and Bader and only a year younger than Rampage and Machida

It's also weird because those guys all fought each other and most of them have wins and losses vs. the other guys. So how does that count?

I'd definitely put him ahead of Bader. Probably Machida, too. Rampage, Chuck, and Shogun would be tough to argue, though.

 

[member 51464]

I do think starting his career later should not be seen as a bonus in favor of DC. Like the implication being he could have done so much more sooner. I think MMA fighters have a peak of a certain length except for a few real rare guys, and had he started sooner, he'd have hit the end of the road sooner. A lot of his contemporaries age wise had already been in wars before he even came over and started.

It should not be a plus or minus for him, in my estimation.

 

[I am not exposed]

I agree with Rome’s tweet, would be a legend to call out Ngannou

What was his tweet? He already called out Ngannou and got knocked out in a few seconds!

 

[CDJ]

I do think starting his career later should not be seen as a bonus in favor of DC. Like the implication being he could have done so much more sooner. I think MMA fighters have a peak of a certain length except for a few real rare guys, and had he started sooner, he'd have hit the end of the road sooner. A lot of his contemporaries age wise had already been in wars before he even came over and started.

It should not be a plus or minus for him, in my estimation.

The way I look at it is he gave his athletic prime to another sport then came in a lot older with Much more wear and tear than the average fighter beginning his career and still managed to have the very high level of success he had

So it’s not a “plus” or anything that I think can be used to boost his MMA resume, it’s just really impressive imo and I think it deserves some recognition

 

[member 51464]

The way I look at it is he gave his athletic prime to another sport then came in a lot older with Much more wear and tear than the average fighter beginning his career and still managed to have the very high level of success he had

So it’s not a “plus” or anything that I think can be used to boost his MMA resume, it’s just really impressive imo and I think it deserves some recognition

I agree! I see it as something worthy of admiration from the human side of it. Like being that age and starting and accomplishing what he did. But purely in terms of placing him amongst the pantheon of MMA greats, his age means nothing to me. So I think we are in agreement.