GDT: UFC 251: Usman vs. Masvidal

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Good under card but an awful main event.

Whoever the ref for Yan VS Aldo was needs to fired that fight needed to be stopped LONG before it was.

Max should be champion today

 

[darko]

Significant strikes per round:

Max: 19, 21, 15, 24, 23
Alex: 19, 22, 25, 34, 37

But yeah apparently Max got robbed lol.

 

[Moncherry]

"Elite ground and pound." How delusional. Usman is just a better version of GSP. There's a reason why he chose to fight Bisping rather than return to the WW division. The only thing GSP has on Usman is being Canadian and handsome.

Better at what? His wrestling isn't even as impressive as GSP's was. Striking is no where near GSP's. Doesn't have better grappling/submissions. GSP has out-struck better strikers and out-wrestled better wrestlers than Usman has.

For the supposed impressive 'domination' by Usman of his opponents, I've never seen GSP have a fight that largely consisted of holding his opponents against the cage and stomping their feet, having most of his takedowns stopped, and most of the damage delivered via accidental head clashes.

Also amusing how you talk as if going up to MW and beating the champ, even if it was a weak champ, is less of a challenge than returning to fight this crop of welterweights. As if fighting any of Usman, Covington, Woodley, etc. is more difficult than fighting any top middleweight. lol, gtfo with that nonsense. Not to mention how before that fight, most thought GSP was going to lose, but of course not long after he won out came the revisionism that it was always an easy fight for him.

hes honestly getting there whether people like it or not

Won the ultimate fighter, undefeated in the promotion, rarely loses rounds while facing elite competition. Complete and total domination of the division. GSP is obviously a legend but he has a couple losses to his name

I do think he beats GSP if they fight but that fight would never happen.

Everything you said applies to GSP and GSP was far more impressive in his victories in a better WW division, also avenged both his losses. Only thing Usman has on him is an undefeated record.

 

[CDJ]

Better at what? His wrestling isn't even as impressive as GSP's was. Striking is no where near GSP's. Doesn't have better grappling/submissions. GSP has out-struck better strikers and out-wrestled better wrestlers than Usman has.

For the supposed impressive 'domination' by Usman of his opponents, I've never seen GSP have a fight that largely consisted of holding his opponents against the cage and stomping their feet, having most of his takedowns stopped, and most of the damage delivered via accidental head clashes.

Also amusing how you talk as if going up to MW and beating the champ, even if it was a weak champ, is less of a challenge than returning to fight this crop of welterweights. As if fighting any of Usman, Covington, Woodley, etc. is more difficult than fighting any top middleweight. lol, gtfo with that nonsense. Not to mention how before that fight, most thought GSP was going to lose, but of course not long after he won out came the revisionism that it was always an easy fight for him.



Everything you said applies to GSP and GSP was far more impressive in his victories in a better WW division, also avenged both his losses. Only thing Usman has on him is an undefeated record.

i mean that undefeated record thing is kind of an important factor, especially when he’s facing premium competition. He hasn’t had to avenge anything in the UFC because he’s running through the competition. He finished the closest fight he was ever in with a dominant 5th round. That showed me what he was made of. And yes he is dominant, there is no other way to describe him. He may not excite you but nobody can do a damn thing against him.

I also think the fighters of today are simply a lot better than the fighters of GSP’s time. The sport has advanced rapidly. That’s just the evolution of sport though so it’s not so much a knock on the guys of a different era

are you talking about the Bisping fight where GSP was a pretty big favorite? Yeah everybody thought he was gonna lose alright lol. He cherry picked Bisping....it is what it is.

Let me guess....you from Canada? Quite an aggressive defense


And to be clear I’m not saying Usman is there quite yet- but he will be if he keeps this up another few fights

 

[1specter]

"Elite ground and pound." How delusional. Usman is just a better version of GSP. There's a reason why he chose to fight Bisping rather than return to the WW division. The only thing GSP has on Usman is being Canadian and handsome.

The irony of you saying this, one of the worst MMA posts I've ever seen.

 

[Moncherry]

i mean that undefeated record thing is kind of an important factor, especially when he’s facing premium competition. He hasn’t had to avenge anything in the UFC because he’s running through the competition. He finished the closest fight he was ever in with a dominant 5th round. That showed me what he was made of. And yes he is dominant, there is no other way to describe him. He may not excite you but nobody can do a damn thing against him.

I also think the fighters of today are simply a lot better than the fighters of GSP’s time. The sport has advanced rapidly. That’s just the evolution of sport though so it’s not so much a knock on the guys of a different era

are you talking about the Bisping fight where GSP was a pretty big favorite? Yeah everybody thought he was gonna lose alright lol. He cherry picked Bisping....it is what it is.

Let me guess....you from Canada? Quite an aggressive defense


And to be clear I’m not saying Usman is there quite yet- but he will be if he keeps this up another few fights

The notion that MMA has evolved is a myth. It's hardly different than 10 years ago.

GSP wasn't the big favourite at all, that's b.s. Didn't say everybody thought he would lose either, might not have been the big underdog I initially described him as, but the point is, it was far from the 'gimme' fight that some try to portray it as now.

No I'm not from Canada, although I lived there most of my life, silly patriotism isn't my motivation for arguing against what I think is simply wrong.

If you really want to compare Usman and GSP, look at GSP's performance against Nick Diaz, who is essentially a bigger, better version of Masvidal. Far more impressive, and he didn't shy away from the stand-up either.

 

[1specter]

hes honestly getting there whether people like it or not

Won the ultimate fighter, undefeated in the promotion, rarely loses rounds while facing elite competition. Complete and total domination of the division. GSP is obviously a legend but he has a couple losses to his name

I do think he beats GSP if they fight but that fight would never happen.

He can get there in terms of wins, but for all the flack that GSP took for not finishing opponents in the later stage of his career, he did still finish Hughes twice, Serra, BJ Penn, Sean Sherk, Frank Trigg, Bisping, and gave one-sided beatings to Fitch, Condit, Koscheck etc that Usman rarely, if ever, does to anyone else. Usman has only 3 finishes out of 12 UFC fights, including his Ultimate Fighter final fight.

I also think GSP's opponents have been generally better. Before Usman fought Demian Maia, he fought mostly nobodies outside of Leon Edwards, who at the time was very raw himself.

As for the last part, if they fought now then potentially yes as GSP has a lot of miles on him, and is old and probably not as sharp or explosive anymore, plus Usman is on some serious juice. If they fought each other in their primes, I don't see how he beats GSP. GSP's striking is levels above Usman, he has some of the best boxing fundamentals in UFC history and his general footwork and technique is so much better. We saw how outclassed Usman was striking wise yesterday by Masvidal and why he ultimately decided to go the cage clinch route. I don't see Usman being able to do that to GSP or win the wrestling exchanges, and GSP would also have the BJJ advantage. He might have a size and power advantage but that's about it.

I also think the fighters of today are simply a lot better than the fighters of GSP’s time. The sport has advanced rapidly. That’s just the evolution of sport though so it’s not so much a knock on the guys of a different era

See my problem with you using this take to favour Usman is that his best wins are against guys who aren't really much younger than GSP and have been around the sport for a similar amount of time.

RDA turns 36 this year (3 years younger than GSP) and has been pro since 2004. Woodley is only a year younger than GSP, however he started MMA late in 2009, but that would still give him around 5 years overlap with GSP's reign. Maia is even older than GSP and has been in the UFC since 2007, and fighting pro since 2001. Masvidal is the same age as RDA, and has been pro fighting since 2003 with over 49 fights to his name. The only youngish opponent and 'new era' win that Usman has under his name is Colby.

While the drugs might be a bit better than they were 7 years ago, I think you're drastically overrating the difference in technique and athleticism over that time. It's minimal at best.

 

[1specter]

Significant strikes per round:

Max: 19, 21, 15, 24, 23
Alex: 19, 22, 25, 34, 37

But yeah apparently Max got robbed lol.

Watch this video for yourself and let me know who landed the better shots.

Also, while a lot of people gave Volkanovski round 4, I think round 4 could actually be given to Max and round 3 given to Volk instead. While Volk got some 'takedowns', he did nothing with them, and he landed a bit more volume but Max landed the harder, better shots and did more overall damage in round 4 IMO.

 

[Suxnet]

Like I said, delusion. Usman is a roider, while GSP, who fought before USADA is clean. The nonsense that gets posted here by fanboys...and yet no one can answer why GSP took the Bisping fight rather than return to WW.

 

[1specter]

Like I said, delusion. Usman is a roider, while GSP, who fought before USADA is clean. The nonsense that gets posted here by fanboys...and yet no one can answer why GSP took the Bisping fight rather than return to WW.

You don't really have any worthwhile argument besides crying 'fanboy'.

Pretty sure the bolded has been answered, but Bisping was a favourable opponent and had the MW strap which would be another thing to add to GSP's legacy along with a good payday. I'm not exactly sure what your point is there though, because it doesn't discredit his accomplishments at WW, or prove that Usman is better in any way. The fact that you can't see GSP is a fundamentally far better fighter than Usman shows how little technical knowledge you have.

 

[CDJ]

He can get there in terms of wins, but for all the flack that GSP took for not finishing opponents in the later stage of his career, he did still finish Hughes twice, Serra, BJ Penn, Sean Sherk, Frank Trigg, Bisping, and gave one-sided beatings to Fitch, Condit, Koscheck etc that Usman rarely, if ever, does to anyone else. Usman has only 3 finishes out of 12 UFC fights, including his Ultimate Fighter final fight.

I also think GSP's opponents have been generally better. Before Usman fought Demian Maia, he fought mostly nobodies outside of Leon Edwards, who at the time was very raw himself.

As for the last part, if they fought now then potentially yes as GSP has a lot of miles on him, and is old and probably not as sharp or explosive anymore, plus Usman is on some serious juice. If they fought each other in their primes, I don't see how he beats GSP. GSP's striking is levels above Usman, he has some of the best boxing fundamentals in UFC history and his general footwork and technique is so much better. We saw how outclassed Usman was striking wise yesterday by Masvidal and why he ultimately decided to go the cage clinch route. I don't see Usman being able to do that to GSP or win the wrestling exchanges, and GSP would also have the BJJ advantage. He might have a size and power advantage but that's about it.


See my problem with you using this take to favour Usman is that his best wins are against guys who aren't really much younger than GSP and have been around the sport for a similar amount of time.

RDA turns 36 this year (3 years younger than GSP) and has been pro since 2004. Woodley is only a year younger than GSP, however he started MMA late in 2009, but that would still give him around 5 years overlap with GSP's reign. Maia is even older than GSP and has been in the UFC since 2007, and fighting pro since 2001. Masvidal is the same age as RDA, and has been pro fighting since 2003 with over 49 fights to his name. The only youngish opponent and 'new era' win that Usman has under his name is Colby.

While the drugs might be a bit better than they were 7 years ago, I think you're drastically overrating the difference in technique and athleticism over that time. It's minimal at best.

he got a win over Leon Edwards as well as far as new school guys go. Leon wasn’t as established as he is now obviously but he’s clearly got talent as I don’t think he’s lost since

but here’s the thing- Masvidal is better than he has ever been. GSP could have fought Woodley and specifically chose Bisping instead (clearly the easier fight at the time). Usman dismantled the champion Woodley (who a lot of people at the time were saying is the #2 WW all time) . RDA and Maia are really the only guys I’d say were clearly not at the height of their game when Usman beat them. And like I said he isn’t there yet but he’s certainly on the right path. Let’s say he runs through Burns and 3 others and calls it quits (he’s had injury issues and is 33). That’s not that outlandish. And honestly after watching his fights the last handful of years do you expect somebody to go in there and make him look bad? Hasn’t happened yet, hasn’t even really come all that close to happening imo. He’s gonna bore the hell out of all of us for a couple more years and probably retire the champion. And that may stink but it is what it is- Burns is probably the best shot at unseating him because I think Usman doesn’t have to be concerned with Colby’s power and can spam everybody else with takedowns or push them against the cage and grind them out. Sucks for us but it is greatness whether you’d like to admit it or not. People have better individual attributes than him but I don’t know if people blend everything together in a way that best suits them like he does. If he never gets caught then I don’t see how an argument can be made against him. He’d have no UFC losses to redeem. And for the record I think GSP is either #1 or 2 all time P4P, but if Usman doesn’t lose he’s going to be in that conversation too. It’s just horrendously boring lol

I just really disagree with the notion the game hasn’t evolved that much. Watching fights from 2008 to now is wildly different. As a whole fighters are far more well rounded than they ever have been and the talent pool has grown immensely as the kids that grew up watching the sport are now adults Actually competing in it. The roster has never been deeper.

 

[Suxnet]

You don't really have any worthwhile argument besides crying 'fanboy'.

Pretty sure the bolded has been answered, but Bisping was a favourable opponent and had the MW strap which would be another thing to add to GSP's legacy along with a good payday. I'm not exactly sure what your point is there though, because it doesn't discredit his accomplishments at WW, or prove that Usman is better in any way. The fact that you can't see GSP is a fundamentally far better fighter than Usman shows how little technical knowledge you have.

"he has some of the best boxing fundamentals in UFC history" and "Usman is on some serious juice". Please share more of this "technical knowledge" with me.

 

[pistolpete11]

Big John thinks Max definitely won (as does Thompson) and as he says in the video, he helped write the scoring criteria. He thought you could make an argument for 49-46 Max, too.

 

[CDJ]

Big John thinks Max definitely won (as does Thompson) and as he says in the video, he helped write the scoring criteria. He thought you could make an argument for 49-46 Max, too.

Big John is the king

 

[CDJ]

Michael Bisping Has Twitter Fight With Dan Henderson While Broadcasting UFC 251


don’t mess with the Count lol, he’ll roast you on the clock

 

[1specter]

and "Usman is on some serious juice". Please share more of this "technical knowledge" with me.

Usman is on juice, if you think a guy with that physique who doesn't ever get tired isn't on something like EPO you're absolutely delusional; I'm sure he has great genetics as well, but the guy is juiced to the gills. Also nowhere did I say that GSP was clean, as you alluded to in your previous post.

"he has some of the best boxing fundamentals in UFC history" a

There is absolutely nothing outlandish about this. GSP has been regarded by many pundits as having one of the best, if not the best jab ever in UFC history. He also trained extensively with Freddie Roach, who y'know, is one of the best boxing trainers of all time, and Roach has spoke very highly of GSP's technical skills and ability to make mid fight adjustments. Most MMA fighters and UFC fighters historically have had rather poor boxing/hands. There are a few historical exceptions like Silva, Aldo, Diaz bros etc. but only recently have we seen more MMA fighters bringing good boxing to the table like McGregor, Masvidal, Gastelum, Dillashaw, Stipe etc.

GSP has generally had great distance management, timing, and his footwork is very clean. He was also good at landing combinations with accuracy. A lot was made about Nick Diaz's elite boxing and striking yet GSP stood with him and outboxed him.

If you're not going to say anything of substance and just say my opinion sucks, then stop replying.

 

[pistolpete11]

It's not worth having the GSP vs. Usman argument yet. Usman just hasn't been in the UFC long enough to compare. Obviously he's on quite the run, but GSP's run was so impressive because of how long it lasted. Both in terms of years and number of fights. A lot of champs seem unbeatable until all of a sudden they aren't. Usman could end up losing to Burns in his next fight and everybody immediately drops any talk of him being on GSP's tier. If he ends up going through Burns, Edwards, maybe Wonderboy, maybe a rematch with Colby or Masvidal, it's going to be tough to deny him. But he's got like 5 years and like 12 fights or so to go before he matches how many GSP had in the UFC.


But if you are going to have this argument, Usman doesn't get a pass for losing to that guy without a Wikipedia page just because it was outside of the UFC. Maybe it was fluke, but so was Serra.

 

[pistolpete11]

Michael Bisping Has Twitter Fight With Dan Henderson While Broadcasting UFC 251


don’t mess with the Count lol, he’ll roast you on the clock

I like Hendo, but Bisping got him on this one .



By the way, speaking of being on your phone during the fights, Mavidal said in the post fight presser that his corner was FaceTiming with Mike Brown during the fight because he couldn't be there due to testing positive for COVID. Is that legal? Seems like it shouldn't be.

 

[Moncherry]

Like I said, delusion. Usman is a roider, while GSP, who fought before USADA is clean. The nonsense that gets posted here by fanboys...and yet no one can answer why GSP took the Bisping fight rather than return to WW.

He fought Bisping because he wanted to go for a title at MW, it's that simple. What more was there for him to achieve at WW? Are you implying he ducked WW? Woodley was the WW champ at the time he came back. You think Bisping is an easier fight than Woodley, or that Woodley is such a tougher match-up for GSP it would require ducking him? Come on.

I just really disagree with the notion the game hasn’t evolved that much. Watching fights from 2008 to now is wildly different. As a whole fighters are far more well rounded than they ever have been and the talent pool has grown immensely as the kids that grew up watching the sport are now adults Actually competing in it. The roster has never been deeper.

What about Usman makes him seem like a more evolved fighter? He's a wrestler who smothers his opponents. He just won a fight with wall n' stall. I don't see how he's any more well-rounded than the best guys GSP fought, nevermind GSP himself.

 

[Suxnet]

Michael Bisping Has Twitter Fight With Dan Henderson While Broadcasting UFC 251


don’t mess with the Count lol, he’ll roast you on the clock

Bisping is a such a douche. I did enjoy watching him KO Rockhold, but seeing him get KO'd by Hendo and choked out by GSP was great. Not to mention he got the shit beat out of him by Hendo in the rematch too, but won on points.

Usman is on juice, if you think a guy with that physique who doesn't ever get tired isn't on something like EPO you're absolutely delusional; I'm sure he has great genetics as well, but the guy is juiced to the gills. Also nowhere did I say that GSP was clean, as you alluded to in your previous post.

So why even bring that up in the first place?

There is absolutely nothing outlandish about this. GSP has been regarded by many pundits as having one of the best, if not the best jab ever in UFC history. He also trained extensively with Freddie Roach, who y'know, is one of the best boxing trainers of all time, and Roach has spoke very highly of GSP's technical skills and ability to make mid fight adjustments. Most MMA fighters and UFC fighters historically have had rather poor boxing/hands. There are a few historical exceptions like Silva, Aldo, Diaz bros etc. but only recently have we seen more MMA fighters bringing good boxing to the table like McGregor, Masvidal, Gastelum, Dillashaw, Stipe etc.

GSP has generally had great distance management, timing, and his footwork is very clean. A lot was made about Nick Diaz's elite boxing and striking yet GSP stood with him and outboxed him.

If you're not going to say anything of substance and just saying my opinion sucks, then stop replying.

GSP had good boxing, but the UFC has had some legit top tier boxers even if they weren't the best mixed martial artists. Putting GSP in a conversation with them is silly and shows your bias. For the record, I think GSP is still the greatest WW of all time, and I remember him dominating guys like Diaz and Koscheck and it was really impressive watching it live, but I rewatched the Koscheck fight a little while ago and man, Koscheck looked so bad. He fought like a scared child. I remember the UFC hyping up his knockout power and all that bullshit in the buildup too and GSP turned his face into pulp with just jabs. If you don't think the level of MMA in the UFC has increased immensely since then you need to go back and rewatch some fights.

 

[Suxnet]

He fought Bisping because he wanted to go for a title at MW, it's that simple. What more was there for him to achieve at WW? Are you implying he ducked WW? Woodley was the WW champ at the time he came back. You think Bisping is an easier fight than Woodley, or that Woodley is such a tougher match-up for GSP it would require ducking him? Come on.

Yes, he ducked WW. Many considered Woodley to be the 2nd best WW after GSP before Usman destroyed him. Hell, after he beat Bisping he could have fought in WW to become a simultaneous 2 division champ. GSP knew what he was doing. It was a low-risk move to pad his legacy a bit and make some easy money. It was a smart move, but it's pretty obvious to MMA enthusiasts why he went the Bisping-and-vacate route.

 

[CDJ]

He fought Bisping because he wanted to go for a title at MW, it's that simple. What more was there for him to achieve at WW? Are you implying he ducked WW? Woodley was the WW champ at the time he came back. You think Bisping is an easier fight than Woodley, or that Woodley is such a tougher match-up for GSP it would require ducking him? Come on.



What about Usman makes him seem like a more evolved fighter? He's a wrestler who smothers his opponents. He just won a fight with wall n' stall. I don't see how he's any more well-rounded than the best guys GSP fought, nevermind GSP himself.

I think Luke Thomas breaks down his game as good as anybody, here is his Woodley-Usman analysis

basically he spams people into favorable positions and then dominates those positions- it’s not unlike what Colby does, they just try and do damage in different ways once they get there (Colby will let you get up and continue to pepper you and bring you back down, Kamaru will get you in side control and put enormous amounts of pressure on you. He’ll also clinch and destroy your body which leads to significant output)


And we can say he’s not dominant if you want but this is a guy who gets PLENTY of 10-8 rounds and hasn’t lost a fight in the UFC. He’s second all time in 10-8 rounds to Khabib. That’s pretty dominant. It’s not a style conducive to finishing or winning over fans but it’s VERY conducive to winning


I’m not gonna sit here and tell you GSP is a bad boxer or anything...he’s very clearly a good one with a great jab in particular. I’m not gonna tell you he isn’t arguably the GOAT. But if Usman keeps winning a few more fights in ways where he completely stifles the opposition and then retires it’s going to be hard to deny his claim as the WW goat. I wouldn’t say that’s ridiculous nonsense

 

[CDJ]

Bisping is a such a douche. I did enjoy watching him KO Rockhold, but seeing him get KO'd by Hendo and choked out by GSP was great. Not to mention he got the shit beat out of him by Hendo in the rematch too, but won on points.

So why even bring that up in the first place?

GSP had good boxing, but the UFC has had some legit top tier boxers even if they weren't the best mixed martial artists. Putting GSP in a conversation with them is silly and shows your bias. For the record, I think GSP is still the greatest WW of all time, and I remember him dominating guys like Diaz and Koscheck and it was really impressive watching it live, but I rewatched the Koscheck fight a little while ago and man, Koscheck looked so bad. He fought like a scared child. I remember the UFC hyping up his knockout power and all that bullshit in the buildup too and GSP turned his face into pulp with just jabs. If you don't think the level of MMA in the UFC has increased immensely since then you need to go back and rewatch some fights.

but is he wrong about Hendo?

I don’t think he is at all

 

[CDJ]

I like Hendo, but Bisping got him on this one .



By the way, speaking of being on your phone during the fights, Mavidal said in the post fight presser that his corner was FaceTiming with Mike Brown during the fight because he couldn't be there due to testing positive for COVID. Is that legal? Seems like it shouldn't be.

I can’t imagine that’s kosher....maybe they had one less cornerman than usual? I know they were deciding on who would be the last one, perhaps they just decided Brown via FaceTime was the best option? Idk, doesn’t seem legal to me lol

 

[h2]

If Usman can hold the belt for another 5 years then the GSP conversation can be had. Still a long ways off.