GDT: UFC 251: Usman vs. Masvidal
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OK, cool. Ducked a fighter to take a more dangerous fight.
Don't see how that's any different or an 'evolution' from the top wrestlers GSP faced, or MMA wrestling in general. Guess we just don't see eye to eye here.
For the record I'm not saying he's no good or doesn't have the makings to be a dominant champion at welterweight, even though I don't care at all for his style or persona, obviously the guy keeps winning in convincing fashion. I just thought there were some poor comparisons being made to GSP, in particular with the manner of his performance.
they’re much different fighters, I don’t think they’re all that stylistically similar and GSP of course finishes far more often. Both have great wrestling but they use it differently. GSP is the better striker but I think Kamaru is significantly better at negating his opponents strengths
Basically we are comparing somebody like Ali to Mayweather (not in the way they draw but in the way they fight). GSP was the far more offensive fighter when it comes to looking to finish but he’s also taken an incredible amount of damage in his career (and a couple losses which he later avenged). He’s also the bigger icon. Usman dominates his opponents while not necessarily looking for the finish and comparatively he takes much less damage than GSP took- and his conservative style lends him to having great risk management which is why he’s undefeated in the UFC right now. Nobody really puts him in any danger. The Colby fight was the most damage he had ever taken and I personally had him 3-1 going into the final round (which would have been a 10-8 if it wasn’t mercifully stopped).
So few people even have the opportunity to put themselves in this discussion so that’s an accomplishment in itself. If he keeps it up for a couple years it’s gonna get interesting. I have no doubt he can Keep it up with Whitman in his corner and Gaethje as a training partner too. He’s phony and annoying but he’s also incredibly mentally tough. I don’t think that should get discounted. Nobody has done to Usman what Serra or Hughes or even Hendricks did to GSP and I think that counts for something.
Either way That Jose Caceres Fella has something to tell his future grandkids forever and ever. The guy that caught Kamaru very early in his career
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Avs_19
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Usman's style isn't very fan friendly but I still have to respect what he's doing. A win over Burns and maybe Edwards again since their first fight was so long ago and he'll have cleaned out the division.
The Covington fight wasn't boring and we could get something similar against Burns so I'm looking forward to that match up.
The Covington fight wasn't boring and we could get something similar against Burns so I'm looking forward to that match up.
Do you think a fighter can lay claim to GOAT status even if they have notable deficiencies in other aspects of MMA despite the results they put up? Answering that for myself, I'm actually not sure. Just something I was thinking about as I read your reply.
Usman is putting up the results, but I think his stand up is awful. The fighters currently in the GOAT conversation like Jones/GSP could do everything and do it very well. There's no debate that both are better than Usman when you take every facet into the equation. Usman will literally repeat the same strategy in every fight which is hold/foot stomp/body shot. The exception being the Colby fight which was a very exciting fight but also not really a threatening stand up match either. I just don't see the discussion right now. I need to see more wins and more wins by diverse methods before I can personally get to that conversation. I'll also fully admit I'm biased as GSP is my #1 fav fighter.
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I don’t see an issue with him defensively, it’s not like he ever takes any real damage. I think he’s got decent offensive striking he just prefers not to stand and trade and take unnecessary brain trauma when he can just fight a safer way (I wouldn’t call it an easier way as it’s incredibly taxing on the body). He’ll stand and trade with the guys he thinks he has a clear advantage over like pillow paws Covington and Moraes. He knocked Moraes out into a somersault, that was kinda neat. Whatever is better risk management- that’s the avenue he takes. Wouldn’t shock me if he would box Burns
If you can dominate every opponent you face into advantageous spots time after time to the point where you never really have to address your perceived weaknesses then do the perceived weaknesses really matter? It’s the same thing for Khabib and if he retires undefeated he is the GOAT in my eyes (zero losses at 155 would be insanity)
The somersault was neat.
I don't like the Usman-Khabib comparison because Khabib is usually advancing position during the wrestling into a more advantageous situation and laying down some serious hate instead of foot stomps and shots to the ribs with a free hand. I think the technique employed by Khabib is much more technical and he does a better job of mixing things up and has had some spectacular moments like dropping McGregor in the stand up, which was shocking to me at the time.
I can see a Khabib argument for GOAT if he retires undefeated as you laid out.
darko
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agreed that Khabib is more technically advanced on the ground- idk if there has ever been anybody more advanced than him in that area. But I also think Kamaru uses a lot of the same things you see Khabib use (notably the Dagestani handcuff which is becoming more and more popular). His output is usually pretty great too. Hell people may not know this but he actually averages more significant strikes per minute than Masvidal does. It’s just that a lot of them are body shots from the clinch up against the cage. Doesn’t look pretty but they do damage and they sap your opponents will to be in there.
basically Usman isn’t here to please us and I think that’s very clear- he’s just wildly effective and it’s tough to knock somebody who is undefeated at 170 in the ufc.
something interesting about Usman is that he’s almost never attacking submissions, he prefers to keep his dominant positioning
BGDDYKWL
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I can't really get on board with the Usman comparisons to GSP or Khabib, particularly Khabib. Khabib is constantly attempting to improve his situation, literally every second of the fight. Usman stalls a lot. And I know that was the knock on GSP but GSP is/was a far more well-rounded fighter than Usman.
Yeah I couldn't believe this when I saw it. To me the clearest rounds were 1, 2, and 5.
Here’s the thing though....kamaru lands more significant strikes per minute than Khabib does too. So this idea that he does nothing is just not true. Just look at his output in the last few fights, it was remarkable
it’s not pretty (I left in the middle of the 5th last night)...a lot of it is body work...but it’s evidently quite effective. And he basically puts these guys in a position where they can do absolutely nothing offensively. He’s gonna win some more decisions over the next few years, people may not like it but I’d get used to it
it’s not pretty (I left in the middle of the 5th last night)...a lot of it is body work...but it’s evidently quite effective. And he basically puts these guys in a position where they can do absolutely nothing offensively. He’s gonna win some more decisions over the next few years, people may not like it but I’d get used to it
pistolpete11
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I thought his manager or something replaced Brown, but even if they didn't it doesn't seem right. You could pick up on stuff by watching it on TV that you might not get if you are cage side. Not to mention, it would be nearly impossible to control how many people could potentially be giving advice.
pistolpete11
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For me, yes, absolutely. The first and most important criteria in GOAT status is winning fights. It doesn't matter to me how you get there. If you continue to fight #1 contender after #1 contender, you are probably going to run into a guy that matches your most dominant skill. So being well rounded is obviously a benefit. If not, and you can just bulldoze guys with your best skill, then more power to you. In Usman's case, I think we saw that with Covington. It doesn't mean he's a good striker, but he's a better striker than the guy that could match his wrestling. We might have to see it if he fights Burns, too.
There's a ton of factors that go into the discussion, though.
- Jan 23, 2010
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Similar to when GSP had some boring fights, it's hard to fault these guys like Usman when 170lbs is just so deep and everyone he's fighting is elite.
The one thing I do agree with is it's a bit tougher to have him headline PPVs with this style, but they can work around it by having him co-main or putting other title fights on the card.
The one thing I do agree with is it's a bit tougher to have him headline PPVs with this style, but they can work around it by having him co-main or putting other title fights on the card.
ZDH
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bov
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I challenge anyone to watch rounds 3-5 on mute and say with a straight face that it was a robbery, and this comes from someone who lost $ on that decision. UFC needs to get Bisping out of there, the guy never shuts up and it ruins the best part of having no fans in the building. Plus I'm pretty sure he was wasted halfway thru the main card if not sooner.
Also have no problem with Usman, fight went pretty much as expected. They won't all be barnburners but he rendered his opponent utterly useless everywhere but at range, did what he had to do. That said, there was a time where I thought to myself "this guy is holding the belt for a loooong time"....the past couple fights have made him look quite human. Credit to Masvidal too, his defensive wrestling was really impressive.
Also have no problem with Usman, fight went pretty much as expected. They won't all be barnburners but he rendered his opponent utterly useless everywhere but at range, did what he had to do. That said, there was a time where I thought to myself "this guy is holding the belt for a loooong time"....the past couple fights have made him look quite human. Credit to Masvidal too, his defensive wrestling was really impressive.
There aren’t really any robberies in this dumbass scoring system since they assign numerical values to something that’s subjective but idk, there’s a reason why a significant majority of people thought Max won. He landed the damage in the fight and I thought he won round 3. Helwani and one of the judges said he won round 5 (idk about that one).
The fight was basically Reyes-Jones 2.0 now that I’ve had time to reflect on it
The fight was basically Reyes-Jones 2.0 now that I’ve had time to reflect on it
Kevin27NYI
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I'm going to rewatch but when I saw the first time live I had rounds 1 and 2 to Max, 3 was a toss up and 4 and 5 were Volkanovski. No controversy with who I was watching with, even if most thought Max won round 3 in our group the term robbed wasn't used. I think that's sensationalizing it.
pistolpete11
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pistolpete11
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Rewatching round 3-5,
Round 3 is extremely close. Volkanovski landed some good jabs and some pitter patter leg kicks. Max landed some body shots and some pitter patter leg kicks of his own. Also curiously, the live stats said Max outstruck Volkanovski 25-22 and that was changed to 28-24 Max after the 4th round. Honestly, I think Volkanovski may have landed slightly more, but I think that is closer to the truth than what the stats say now. It was basically even. In that case, I think I would give it to Max since he controlled the center of the cage for the majority of the round. Easily a case for Volkanovski, though.
Round 4 is extremely close, too. I'm surprised more people aren't talking about it. I think Max edged him on the striking. He landed the harder shots IMO and controlled the center of the octagon again. But Volkanovski got a takedown. It was one of those technically he got him to the ground, so it has to count for something, but he couldn't hold him there. So how do you score that?
Round 5 was pretty clearly Volkanovski IMO. Of course this is the round that the stats say the striking was almost even and 1 judge actually scored for Max. Max did land some solid, clean shots, but so did Volkanovski and he also got another does it count takedown and then another takedown right at the end where he did have some control and got off some elbows.
As most of the talking heads are saying, this fight just highlights the flawed scoring system. Max clearly won the fight if you judge it as a whole, but there is definitely a case where Volkanovski won 3 rounds. Although, if you listen to Big John, maybe the scoring system is not understood enough by the fans and/or judges.
Luke Thomas and his co-host on the Showtime show, Brian Campbell, both agreed the scoring system sucks, but had different approaches to maybe fix it. Luke wants to go back to PRIDE scoring and just judge it as a whole. BC thinks you make knockdowns count as a point, so Max would have won Round 1 and 2 10-8 even though they weren't dominating rounds like how we normally see 10-8 round scored. I like structure, so I tend to agree more with BC, but I think something needs to be done. Of course nothing will be done and we'll just keep blaming it on shitty judges.
Round 3 is extremely close. Volkanovski landed some good jabs and some pitter patter leg kicks. Max landed some body shots and some pitter patter leg kicks of his own. Also curiously, the live stats said Max outstruck Volkanovski 25-22 and that was changed to 28-24 Max after the 4th round. Honestly, I think Volkanovski may have landed slightly more, but I think that is closer to the truth than what the stats say now. It was basically even. In that case, I think I would give it to Max since he controlled the center of the cage for the majority of the round. Easily a case for Volkanovski, though.
Round 4 is extremely close, too. I'm surprised more people aren't talking about it. I think Max edged him on the striking. He landed the harder shots IMO and controlled the center of the octagon again. But Volkanovski got a takedown. It was one of those technically he got him to the ground, so it has to count for something, but he couldn't hold him there. So how do you score that?
Round 5 was pretty clearly Volkanovski IMO. Of course this is the round that the stats say the striking was almost even and 1 judge actually scored for Max. Max did land some solid, clean shots, but so did Volkanovski and he also got another does it count takedown and then another takedown right at the end where he did have some control and got off some elbows.
As most of the talking heads are saying, this fight just highlights the flawed scoring system. Max clearly won the fight if you judge it as a whole, but there is definitely a case where Volkanovski won 3 rounds. Although, if you listen to Big John, maybe the scoring system is not understood enough by the fans and/or judges.
Luke Thomas and his co-host on the Showtime show, Brian Campbell, both agreed the scoring system sucks, but had different approaches to maybe fix it. Luke wants to go back to PRIDE scoring and just judge it as a whole. BC thinks you make knockdowns count as a point, so Max would have won Round 1 and 2 10-8 even though they weren't dominating rounds like how we normally see 10-8 round scored. I like structure, so I tend to agree more with BC, but I think something needs to be done. Of course nothing will be done and we'll just keep blaming it on shitty judges.
bov
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I felt similarly about the Aldo / Moraes fight wrt Holloway /Volkanovski. I thought Aldo fought a great fight overall and I might've given it to him based on entire body of work, but going by the scoring system I had to give it to Moraes , almost easily in that one. The final 3 rounds here were so competitive it'd be pretty easy to justify Volkanovski taking them, despite looking like the inferior fighter overall in this case.
That's where I wouldn't mind some extra category such as "overall" or to a lesser extent, "damage" / "effective ___________" that can be invoked in such matchups where the current system just isn't enough. I'd also be for allowing 10-10 rounds and would like to see more 10-8's handed out, even the odd 10-7 for an absolute mauling.
That's where I wouldn't mind some extra category such as "overall" or to a lesser extent, "damage" / "effective ___________" that can be invoked in such matchups where the current system just isn't enough. I'd also be for allowing 10-10 rounds and would like to see more 10-8's handed out, even the odd 10-7 for an absolute mauling.
- Jan 23, 2010
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Reading online at the time, there were lots of people who called it a robbery. And I think like some others have mentioned, maybe the commentary helped biased that. I also think Max is just much more popular than Volkanovski.
- Jan 23, 2010
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I agree with how you broke down the fight. I did think Volkanovski won Round 4 clearly at the time as I remember thinking it was either 2-2 or he was down 3-1 after that round, but on re-watch my opinion might change. Close one, for sure.
As for changing the scoring system, I am fine with something closer to what Pride did. The one part of scoring that would be tricky is are you scoring it as an equal whole or are you weighing the end of the fight more heavily? To me there's an element of it being a replication of an actual fight, and in that case what is happening at the end of the fight is probably the most important.
For example under the current system, Rose definitely beat Andrade 29-28. But under a Pride system, would anyone give that fight to Rose? I would give it to Andrade. But then how much better do Rose's first two rounds have to be to win that fight and erase that last round?
What if you flipped around the rounds and Andrade's big round was the first round and then Rose came back and out-pointed her for the last two rounds? In that case, maybe you give it to Rose?
The one part about a new scoring system that I would welcome is more draws. It just seems that there are so many fights where both guys are pretty equal and you are just basically flipping a coin. Max/Volkanovski 2 could of been a draw. Hooker/Felder could have been a draw. Maybe it's unsatisfying to some but if both guys are equal then why not call it like it was?
