The check is to see if he is still conscious. Herb grabbed his arm and Robbie moved it. Unconscious people don't move their arms.
But the thing is he didn't move his arm again until after Herb let it go. If Herb sees his arm drop limp like that, and then feels no resistance after asking for a response and then grabbing the arm, what is he supposed to think? He has to make that split second decision to protect the fighter. The vantage point that Herb had as well would have made it really difficult to see if the arm was swinging back down because of the way he let it go, or if it was a voluntary movement.
Robbie says he also gave a thumbs up. I haven't seen that, but I definitely saw his arm move when Herb checked on him.
Yeah the thumbs up is very questionable to me. I've seen it in super slow mo and if he did it was very short and faint...really tough to say either way.
What more was he supposed to do?
Well if he was conscious, not put himself in a position to look out IMO. I've never seen someone who is conscious drop their arm like that 'to relax'; there would be some level of control even if faint, hand propped on the ground, some kind of flex, etc. His arm was completely limp and even bounced off the canvas -- there's no way someone sees that and thinks 'oh yeah, that's relaxing to protect himself'. Further, he was not making any effort at all to defend himself...I mean, you can buy the argument that he was trying to let Askren burn his arms out, but when you have one of the best wrestlers in MMA (who is reknowned for his intense grip strength) cranking on your head/neck usually there is some kind of physical reaction whether you're moving your head, body, arms, etc. Nothing was moving at all. He could have brought his arm up when Herb touched it to show he was good, or said something, or moved his legs or other arm, but instead he very faintly moved his arm (especially hard to see the voluntary move in real time if you're not looking for it) and it was back down toward the canvas with very little indication that he was conscious. If you buy that he was relaxing, and not unconscious even for a second, then he certainly wasn't intelligently defending himself.
So for me this is a completely justifiable stoppage for those reasons. Could he have still fought? It seemed like it after Askren let go, but in that situation he seemed compromised so Herb has to make that call to protect the fighter (and Lawler understands that a lot more than people upset about the stoppage seem to).
I never said it should have been stopped when Askren was getting his face punched in. Herb did a good job by letting Askren get through that. He should have given the same opportunity to Lawler.
These are not equal situations though. Compare to what I mentioned above. If you watch the beating Askren takes he never loses consciousness, never appears to lose consciousness, is always calm and Herb can see his face the whole time. He moves to protect himself and takes a few punches, yes, but never goes limp etc.
I like both guys. You can see my post on the first page. I said I don't know who to root for because I like both of them a lot. Robbie is a warrior and a class act and I find Askren hilarious. Askren didn't deserve or not deserve that win. It was just a bad stoppage.
I like them both too, but I don't think it was a bad stoppage.
Why? That makes no sense. Your whole breakdown of the fight is not objective at all. Lawler clearly moved and responded the moment Herb tapped him.
I think it's an objective view. It's hard to put yourself in the position of the ref. I wanted Askren to win, but I like Lawler. I think it was a difficult situation that Herb Dean actually reacted appropriately to (and NSAC also backed him up after). If you listen to most of the announcers, Joe Rogan, etc. everyone thought he was out in live view so it's very revisionist history to make up excuses for why Lawler would appear to be out while not defending himself at all, but that somehow after multiple attempts to get him to respond Herb was supposed to just know he was 'relaxing' to try and get Askren to burn out his arms.
It is irritating to see the holier than thou attitude as well. r/mma is for the most part a very knowledgeable and level headed group...secondly I am a high ranked MMA player on the DFS scene zombiekopitar , I watch a crap ton of fights....so if you don't think I'm knowledgeable or my assessment is reasonable then idk what to tell you man.
I wasn't intending to insult you, your knowledge/assessment or anyone specific on r/mma. I'm just saying that just because a large group of people or fans of MMA think something doesn't mean that it's true, or reasonable so I don't think using 'just go look at all these people saying this' has merit in this kind of discussion. I'm happy to discuss a topic based on what happened, your views, or whatever else. Though in my experience it's very rare that you're going to change someone's mind about something on the internet once they've come to a conclusion on their own haha.
But yeah...I wouldn't mind a rematch I think that it goes similarly, or maybe Lawler is a bit more cautious and takes a bit longer for Askren to wear him down, but ultimately I think Askren wins that fight 9 times out of 10. I just think that an immediate rematch doesn't really serve the sport much right now especially since both guys are getting up there in age. Have them fight other guys and if they keep winning they'll naturally fight eachother again.