GDT: UFC 235: Jones vs. Smith

BGDDYKWL

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Jul 16, 2007
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Usman's performance was unbelievable. And not to Monday morning quarterback, but I think Woodley was a little overrated. The talk of him being right there with GSP was quite a reach. As for him being "off", he always fights like that, Usman was simply too good. And we're talking a monumental gap. I don't know if I've ever seen a champ get dominated that badly. I also don't know who's gonna even give him a remote challenge.

Same can be said for Jones. Smith had less than nothing for him. Smith is extremely likable, but he didn't do anything he said. I think he unfortunately quickly realized when he got in there that he was dealing with an entirely different animal in Jones.

Watching live I thought Lawler was out. I know some think he was but in hindsight I do not. He was too immediately responsive when the fight was stopped. Not sure that they will but clearly a fight they should run back.
 

BGDDYKWL

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Jul 16, 2007
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And stop with the Jones Goat talk, guy is a drug cheat, not to mention a coke head and general *******. He had the talent and physical attributes to be the goat, but he doesn’t have the mental toughness required.
I can't stand Jones, but the only way you can fairly leave him out of the GOAT discussion is if you think he is winning because of PEDs. Personally, I do not. He's the clear number one IMO.
Looks like I'm in the minority here, but I think Smith absolutely should've stayed down after taking that illegal knee to the head

He probably cost himself hundreds of thousands of dollars
I fully respect the class/honor of what he did, and he couldn't be more likable, but this was my thought exactly when watching the fight. And sure that honor gets you respect, which is great, but it doesn't bring the $$$. Not to mention an opportunity at a rematch (which he otherwise obviously won't be getting). Class act all the way, but not the right (purely) business decision.
 

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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The question isn't can Smith continue the fight at that point, but rather should Smith continue the fight?

He's a husband. He's a father to 3 daughters. And he's in a fight that he has very little chance to win

For the sake of his health - both immediate and long term - it made no sense to continue taking damage

For the sake of his bank account it made no sense to continue fighting as he could've left the cage with the belt and likely been paid enough in the rematch with Jones to set up his family for life
 

m9

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The question isn't can Smith continue the fight at that point, but rather should Smith continue the fight?

He's a husband. He's a father to 3 daughters. And he's in a fight that he has very little chance to win

For the sake of his health - both immediate and long term - it made no sense to continue taking damage

For the sake of his bank account it made no sense to continue fighting as he could've left the cage with the belt and likely been paid enough in the rematch with Jones to set up his family for life

Sure, he likely gets a rematch out of it. Or maybe it ends up a no contest.

But then what? Faking a worse injury isn't going to go over well with the guys in charge. He's also trying to set himself up as an analyst when he's done fighting and taking the easy way out in the main event of one of the biggest cards of the year is not a good look.

You know what is a good look? Grinding in there for 25 minutes with the best of all-time.
 

Neutrinos

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Sure, he likely gets a rematch out of it. Or maybe it ends up a no contest.

But then what? Faking a worse injury isn't going to go over well with the guys in charge. He's also trying to set himself up as an analyst when he's done fighting and taking the easy way out in the main event of one of the biggest cards of the year is not a good look.

You know what is a good look? Grinding in there for 25 minutes with the best of all-time.

You know what's not good for an analyst? Brain damage

Nobody is saying he needed to fake an injury, he could've just said he doesn't wish to continue after taking that illegal knee to the head

There's no dishonour in that
 

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I thought the belt doesn't change hands on a DQ and it has to be won?
 

tmurfin

That’s the joke
May 8, 2010
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It wasn't a bad stoppage though. His arm goes completely limp and bounces off the floor and he didn't respond when asked if he was okay. He was clearly out (and I think he knew it and that's why he didn't protest the stoppage much).
Wrong. There’s a different angle where you can clearly see Lawler waving and giving a thumbs up just as Herb is reaching in to stop it. Lawler said himself he heard Herb call but couldn’t answer because Askren was wrapped around his face. He said he dropped his arm because he wasn’t in any danger, and was letting askren burn his arms out. This was a rear naked “neck flexing” situation again, he had him in a bulldog choke around his head, he wasn’t going out from it.

He didn’t protest as much as he could’ve because he’s a class act, he’s never overly emotional one way or the other, he said himself, shit happens. It was a horrible stoppage.

Herb Dean hasn’t been a good ref for years now. There was a time he was 1-2 with Big John, not anymore.
 
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tmurfin

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Speaking of refs, Goddard was f***ing horrible. Telling Usman “this is a fight”, we’ll no f***ing shit, the guy is fighting and dominating the biggest fight of his life, in half guard, and your standing him because why? You want more excitement? You’re a ref, not a spectator,

And I just want to say, we better enjoy having Joe Rogan around while we can. His ability to speak freely is much needed, there have been times where he’s talked about the truck guys telling his coworkers (Cormier, etc) not to talk about certain things, but he doesn’t give a f***. He’ll call out the ref, the judges, fighters, everyone. At some point he’ll be gone and they’ll have the booth guys completely neutered for fear of their jobs.
 
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BGDDYKWL

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Speaking of refs, Goddard was ****ing horrible. Telling Usman “this is a fight”, we’ll no ****ing ****, the guy is fighting and dominating the biggest fight of his life, in half guard, and your standing him because why? You want more excitement? You’re a ref, not a spectator,

And I just want to say, we better enjoy having Joe Rogan around while we can. His ability to speak freely is much needed, there have been times where he’s talked about the truck guys telling his coworkers (Cormier, etc) not to talk about certain things, but he doesn’t give a ****. He’ll call out the ref, the judges, fighters, everyone. At some point he’ll be gone and they’ll have the booth guys completely neutered for fear of their jobs.
Agree on both points. Those stand-ups were absolutely terrible. You don't reward a guy who's getting thoroughly dominated. Usman was plenty active.
 

pistolpete11

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I thought the belt doesn't change hands on a DQ and it has to be won?
I think it's the difference between intentional and unintentional. If it's intentional, it goes down as a W and a L. If it's unintentional, it goes down as a NC and the belt stays with the champ.

Herb deemed the knee to be intentional, so if Smith wasn't able to continue, he would have won by DQ.

I think that's the way it works, but not 100% sure.
 
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m9

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You know what's not good for an analyst? Brain damage

Nobody is saying he needed to fake an injury, he could've just said he doesn't wish to continue after taking that illegal knee to the head

There's no dishonour in that

He's had like 40 fights and been doing it his whole life - the next 5 minutes aren't going to determine whether or not he has brain damage.
 

Neutrinos

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He's had like 40 fights and been doing it his whole life - the next 5 minutes aren't going to determine whether or not he has brain damage.

That would depend on how those next 5 minutes went

It's certainly possible to suffer a life-altering brain injury in a single round of fighting
 

Neutrinos

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I'm sure your plan of him going another 25 minutes with the best ever while trying to avenge a cheap DQ loss will be good for his brain too.

The payday would be such it could probably be his last fight if he chose
 

m9

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The payday would be such it could probably be his last fight if he chose

Maybe. Or maybe the fight ends up a no contest and he's damaged both of careers (in the UFC and as an analyst) for trying to take a cheap way out.

Just to put this to bed - I understand what you're saying and why it would be an option. I just don't think it is a slam dunk it is the best option. Maybe it works out better, but maybe it doesn't.
 
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YNWA14

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The check is to see if he is still conscious. Herb grabbed his arm and Robbie moved it. Unconscious people don't move their arms.
But the thing is he didn't move his arm again until after Herb let it go. If Herb sees his arm drop limp like that, and then feels no resistance after asking for a response and then grabbing the arm, what is he supposed to think? He has to make that split second decision to protect the fighter. The vantage point that Herb had as well would have made it really difficult to see if the arm was swinging back down because of the way he let it go, or if it was a voluntary movement.
Robbie says he also gave a thumbs up. I haven't seen that, but I definitely saw his arm move when Herb checked on him.
Yeah the thumbs up is very questionable to me. I've seen it in super slow mo and if he did it was very short and faint...really tough to say either way.
What more was he supposed to do?
Well if he was conscious, not put himself in a position to look out IMO. I've never seen someone who is conscious drop their arm like that 'to relax'; there would be some level of control even if faint, hand propped on the ground, some kind of flex, etc. His arm was completely limp and even bounced off the canvas -- there's no way someone sees that and thinks 'oh yeah, that's relaxing to protect himself'. Further, he was not making any effort at all to defend himself...I mean, you can buy the argument that he was trying to let Askren burn his arms out, but when you have one of the best wrestlers in MMA (who is reknowned for his intense grip strength) cranking on your head/neck usually there is some kind of physical reaction whether you're moving your head, body, arms, etc. Nothing was moving at all. He could have brought his arm up when Herb touched it to show he was good, or said something, or moved his legs or other arm, but instead he very faintly moved his arm (especially hard to see the voluntary move in real time if you're not looking for it) and it was back down toward the canvas with very little indication that he was conscious. If you buy that he was relaxing, and not unconscious even for a second, then he certainly wasn't intelligently defending himself.

So for me this is a completely justifiable stoppage for those reasons. Could he have still fought? It seemed like it after Askren let go, but in that situation he seemed compromised so Herb has to make that call to protect the fighter (and Lawler understands that a lot more than people upset about the stoppage seem to).
I never said it should have been stopped when Askren was getting his face punched in. Herb did a good job by letting Askren get through that. He should have given the same opportunity to Lawler.
These are not equal situations though. Compare to what I mentioned above. If you watch the beating Askren takes he never loses consciousness, never appears to lose consciousness, is always calm and Herb can see his face the whole time. He moves to protect himself and takes a few punches, yes, but never goes limp etc.
I like both guys. You can see my post on the first page. I said I don't know who to root for because I like both of them a lot. Robbie is a warrior and a class act and I find Askren hilarious. Askren didn't deserve or not deserve that win. It was just a bad stoppage.
I like them both too, but I don't think it was a bad stoppage.
Why? That makes no sense. Your whole breakdown of the fight is not objective at all. Lawler clearly moved and responded the moment Herb tapped him.
I think it's an objective view. It's hard to put yourself in the position of the ref. I wanted Askren to win, but I like Lawler. I think it was a difficult situation that Herb Dean actually reacted appropriately to (and NSAC also backed him up after). If you listen to most of the announcers, Joe Rogan, etc. everyone thought he was out in live view so it's very revisionist history to make up excuses for why Lawler would appear to be out while not defending himself at all, but that somehow after multiple attempts to get him to respond Herb was supposed to just know he was 'relaxing' to try and get Askren to burn out his arms.
It is irritating to see the holier than thou attitude as well. r/mma is for the most part a very knowledgeable and level headed group...secondly I am a high ranked MMA player on the DFS scene zombiekopitar , I watch a crap ton of fights....so if you don't think I'm knowledgeable or my assessment is reasonable then idk what to tell you man.
I wasn't intending to insult you, your knowledge/assessment or anyone specific on r/mma. I'm just saying that just because a large group of people or fans of MMA think something doesn't mean that it's true, or reasonable so I don't think using 'just go look at all these people saying this' has merit in this kind of discussion. I'm happy to discuss a topic based on what happened, your views, or whatever else. Though in my experience it's very rare that you're going to change someone's mind about something on the internet once they've come to a conclusion on their own haha.

But yeah...I wouldn't mind a rematch I think that it goes similarly, or maybe Lawler is a bit more cautious and takes a bit longer for Askren to wear him down, but ultimately I think Askren wins that fight 9 times out of 10. I just think that an immediate rematch doesn't really serve the sport much right now especially since both guys are getting up there in age. Have them fight other guys and if they keep winning they'll naturally fight eachother again.
 

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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Maybe. Or maybe the fight ends up a no contest and he's damaged both of careers (in the UFC and as an analyst) for trying to take a cheap way out.

Just to put this to bed - I understand what you're saying and why it would be an option. I just don't think it is a slam dunk it is the best option. Maybe it works out better, but maybe it doesn't.

It's not the "cheap way out"

He's in there with the best fighter of all-time, and he took a vicious illegal knee to the head. There's no shame or dishonour in halting the fight at that point
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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Askren gives a great assessment of the fight here, IMO. His interviews in general are really refreshing.

 

pistolpete11

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Apr 27, 2013
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It's not the "cheap way out"

He's in there with the best fighter of all-time, and he took a vicious illegal knee to the head. There's no shame or dishonour in halting the fight at that point
Saying you can't continue when you could continue is definitely taking the cheap way out. He was getting his ass kicked up until that point and he would have got a win that he didn't even slightly deserve.
 
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Neutrinos

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Saying you can't continue when you could continue is definitely taking the cheap way out. He was getting his ass kicked up until that point and he would have got a win that he didn't even slightly deserve.

It is a sport with rules

However small you may think it was, hitting Smith with an illegal strike gave Jones an advantage

It's perfectly reasonable to halt the contest after an opponent has gained an advantage via prohibited measures
 

pistolpete11

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Apr 27, 2013
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It is a sport with rules

However small you may think it was, hitting Smith with an illegal strike gave Jones an advantage

It's perfectly reasonable to halt the contest after an opponent has gained an advantage via prohibited measures
Yes, there are rules. Jones broke one and was punished accordingly.
 

m9

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Yes, there are rules. Jones broke one and was punished accordingly.

For sure. Fighters don't generally make it to UFC championship level fights if they're wired to cheat the rules to possibly get a cheap win.
 

td_ice

Peter shows the way
Aug 13, 2005
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It was crazy post fight to see Johnny Walker, the winner with a crushing knee to the chin, writhing on the mat in pain. While his opponent, who got crushed seconds earlier, standing there looking fine. What a weird juxtaposition. Great fight. Not smart on the celebration.
 
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LSCII

Cup driven
Mar 1, 2002
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People still whining about the Askren/Lawler stoppage need to watch this clip. It's spot on and there was literally nothing Robbie could do to get out of the spot he was in.

 

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