GDT: UFC 232: Jones vs. Gustafsson 2

[member 51464]

DC may just be that much better than Stipe that it does not matter, but I hope we see a better version of Miocic if there is a rematch.

 

[pistolpete11]

You're kind of stepping over yourself here. So in your first bolded line, you say it isn't true. Then in the second bolded line.. you say it is true?

My point is that they are a vocal minority that can be ignored. The world's round, but there are people that will tell you it's flat. Do you listen to them? Or do you ignore them? A more extreme example than whether or not Jon Jones is the GOAT fighter, sure, but you get the point.

You said there is nothing for Jones to gain by beating DC at HW because that vocal minority will just discredit him anyway. But as you said, there is a much larger group of people that wouldn't. To those people, becoming the HW champ and beating another one of the all time greats would be a huge legacy booster for him. Obviously he can't go up from #1, but it's still a legacy booster that puts separation between him, everyone else that has ever done it, and anybody else that might come along.

As for legacy, well once again you have kind of already said it yourself and bolded above - Jones is #1 or #2 everywhere. DC, say down in the #3-#6 range. If Jones wins.. that number doesn't change. DC's # doesn't change with a loss. If DC wins.. DC vaults up to #1, while Jones falls back to at least #2 and possibly lower. So no, there isn't "a lot on the line" in terms of legacy for both guys. There is a ton on the line for Jones, and almost nothing for DC in terms of legacy.

I really hope he's not thinking like this. This just sounds like he's either scared he'd lose or he's so petty that he doesn't even want to give DC the chance. I really doubt it's the former. If it's the latter, I'd lose even more respect for Jones than I already have.

 

[m9]

My point is that they are a vocal minority that can be ignored. The world's round, but there are people that will tell you it's flat. Do you listen to them? Or do you ignore them? A more extreme example than whether or not Jon Jones is the GOAT fighter, sure, but you get the point.

You said there is nothing for Jones to gain by beating DC at HW because that vocal minority will just discredit him anyway. But as you said, there is a much larger group of people that wouldn't. To those people, becoming the HW champ and beating another one of the all time greats would be a huge legacy booster for him. Obviously he can't go up from #1, but it's still a legacy booster that puts separation between him, everyone else that has ever done it, and anybody else that might come along.


I really hope he's not thinking like this. This just sounds like he's either scared he'd lose or he's so petty that he doesn't even want to give DC the chance. I really doubt it's the former. If it's the latter, I'd lose even more respect for Jones than I already have.

There is a thread from last year in here that is an "all-time top 20 fighters" or something, and Jones is #1 in maybe half of them at the very most. If you look around at different sites list, I would say more often than not he is not at the top. This isn't a "flat earth" vocal minority, this is a large percentage of MMA fans & media who don't think he's the best ever for various reasons.

Again, I laid out the all-time rankings and how they would change depending on the result of DC/Jones.. which you have ignored, because they completely ruin your stance that "both guys have a ton to lose in terms of their legacy".

And your last paragraph kind of sums it all up. Jones not fighting DC again means he's scared, petty and you will lose respect for him. He's already beaten him once or twice convincingly, depending how you look at it. Yet Jones is these things? Jones is an idiot who makes terrible life choices, but this paragraph shows how biased you are and I'm going to quit wasting my time discussing Jon Jones with you.

 

[m9]

And after all of this, sounds like Jon Jones v Anthony Smith is in the works.

Hope it happens, and hopefully we are looking at March/April. Time to get these divisions moving along and not held up by "champ/champ" fights, suspensions, interims, etc.

 

[Peter Griffin]

And after all of this, sounds like Jon Jones v Anthony Smith is in the works.

Hope it happens, and hopefully we are looking at March/April. Time to get these divisions moving along and not held up by "champ/champ" fights, suspensions, interims, etc.

For some reason Anthony Smith was mentioning a July match-up when he was interviewing Jones on Fox after the fight. March/April makes a lot more sense and Jones has stated he'd like to fight 3 times this year, so let's make it happen.

For as much as I dislike Jones' as a person, I enjoy watching him fight so the more fights the better IMO.

 

[m9]

For some reason Anthony Smith was mentioning a July match-up when he was interviewing Jones on Fox after the fight. March/April makes a lot more sense and Jones has stated he'd like to fight 3 times this year, so let's make it happen.

For as much as I dislike Jones' as a person, I enjoy watching him fight so the more fights the better IMO.

Not sure if they are going back to Brooklyn in April, but if so Jones/Smith with a solid co-main (Holloway v Edgar, Rose v someone) would make sense.

 

[pistolpete11]

There is a thread from last year in here that is an "all-time top 20 fighters" or something, and Jones is #1 in maybe half of them at the very most. If you look around at different sites list, I would say more often than not he is not at the top. This isn't a "flat earth" vocal minority, this is a large percentage of MMA fans & media who don't think he's the best ever for various reasons.

The vocal minority we are discussing are those who discredit everything Jones has done and will do.....

I know you think that people will completely discredit everything Jones has done or ever will do because of the PED stuff, but it's simply not true. Sure, there are some people that will, but they are the vocal minority.

There is a middle ground here. You don't have to believe Jones is the GOAT or else you are discrediting everything he has ever done. Believe it or not, there are legitimate arguments for other guys to be considered the GOAT and yes, getting caught with banned substances 3 times is a legitimate knock against Jones.

Again, I laid out the all-time rankings and how they would change depending on the result of DC/Jones.. which you have ignored, because they completely ruin your stance that "both guys have a ton to lose in terms of their legacy".

Because whatever you say on a subjective matter goes as fact, right? I ignored it because I don't agree and I already said what I have to say....but since you must have missed it...DC was able to somewhat step out of Jones shadow by going up to HW. Beating Stipe, becoming the champ-champ, defending against Lewis, maybe he defends against Brock or something. He put himself into the GOAT discussion and that's a storybook ending. If he lost to Jones at HW, that would be devastating and is a stain on his career. It doesn't erase everything he did and I'm not sure how it effects his standing in the GOAT list, but it's not as good as it could have been. Jones even said to him "Don't end your career by crying in the cage again." First, that's a great line. Second, he's not wrong. It's a very real, if not likely, possibility and I'm sure that's not how DC wants to go out. It's not how I and I imagine most people would want to see him go out either. So yes, I think it hurts DC's legacy if he loses to Jones again.

Since we're talking about ignoring stuff, you never answered why you think Jones is fighting. If he's the GOAT already and he can't improve on that even by getting the HW belt because everybody will just discredit him anyway, why's he fighting at all? You also ignored how much more money he'd make by fighting DC than Smith.

And your last paragraph kind of sums it all up. Jones not fighting DC again means he's scared, petty and you will lose respect for him. He's already beaten him once or twice convincingly, depending how you look at it. Yet Jones is these things? Jones is an idiot who makes terrible life choices, but this paragraph shows how biased you are and I'm going to quit wasting my time discussing Jon Jones with you.

No, that was YOUR reasoning for not wanting him to fight DC. Not his. Actually, his reasoning, which he basically said post fight, is because he wants to stay at his natural weight class. Which is fine. It's not what I want to see and he's going to make less money that way, but that's up to him. But he's not (at least publicly) saying he doesn't want DC to pass him on the GOAT list like you suggested.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Not sure if they are going back to Brooklyn in April, but if so Jones/Smith with a solid co-main (Holloway v Edgar, Rose v someone) would make sense.

Jon Jones set to defend title vs. Anthony Smith at UFC 235

UFC 235 in March it is.

 

[m9]

Jon Jones set to defend title vs. Anthony Smith at UFC 235

UFC 235 in March it is.

Interesting. I think Usman vs either Woodley or Covington is maybe set for there too, and along with Lawler/Askren that's a good top of a card.

 

[Avs_19]

That's a very quick turnaround for Jones but I like it. Four weeks notice is far from ideal for Smith but you only get these opportunities so often so you have to take it.

It'll be hilarious if Covington pissed off people in the UFC (Dana) to the point where he loses his title shot. I can't stand him.

 

[m9]

That's a very quick turnaround for Jones but I like it. Four weeks notice is far from ideal for Smith but you only get these opportunities so often so you have to take it.

It'll be hilarious if Covington pissed off people in the UFC (Dana) to the point where he loses his title shot. I can't stand him.

It's around 7-8 weeks away (not 4), so plenty of time for Smith. He fought at the end of October, so timeline should be fine.

Sounds like Usman fighting at UFC235 for a title is a done deal. Woodley v Usman as a co-main would be great.

 

[Avs_19]

It's around 7-8 weeks away (not 4), so plenty of time for Smith. He fought at the end of October, so timeline should be fine.

Sounds like Usman fighting at UFC235 for a title is a done deal. Woodley v Usman as a co-main would be great.

My bad. I didn't realize the PPV was in March. I saw a quote from Smith on MMA Junkie yesterday where he mentioned four weeks notice but maybe he was talking about if it got done later. 7-8 weeks is enough time for a full camp and I don't think he cuts much weight so that'll be fine.

People wanted Woodley vs. Covington but this isn't bad at all for Woodley if he gets PPV points. I think one of his issues has been with people not knowing Usman but he doesn't need to worry about any of that if he's on a Jones card.

 

[pistolpete11]

It's a pretty standard timeline. Maybe a little on the shorter side, but it should be plenty of time for Smith to get in shape and Jones already is in shape from the Gus fight. Plus, Smith has probably been studying Jones since he beat Volkan expecting Jones to beat Gus....not that I think it matters.

I hate everything about the WW title picture right now and I think Woodley, Covington, and the UFC are all to blame. Woodley-Covington is the fight that should happen. Wooldey's the champ. Covington is (was?) the interim champ. They've been going at in the media for I don't even know how long now. Both Woodley and Covington haven't been ready to fight and then the UFC muddies the waters even more by throwing Usman into the mix. It's just a mess.

 

[pistolpete11]

My bad. I didn't realize the PPV was in March. I saw a quote from Smith on MMA Junkie yesterday where he mentioned four weeks notice but maybe he was talking about if it got done later. 7-8 weeks is enough time for a full camp and I don't think he cuts much weight so that'll be fine.

People wanted Woodley vs. Covington but this isn't bad at all for Woodley if he gets PPV points. I think one of his issues has been with people not knowing Usman but he doesn't need to worry about any of that if he's on a Jones card.

He was probably saying he took the Shogun fight on 4 weeks notice. He fought Rashad in June and then Shogun in July.

 

[pistolpete11]

It's around 7-8 weeks away (not 4), so plenty of time for Smith. He fought at the end of October, so timeline should be fine.

Sounds like Usman fighting at UFC235 for a title is a done deal. Woodley v Usman as a co-main would be great.

You got your wish. Woodley-Usman official for UFC 235.

Great fight and great top of the card. I just think it should be Covington (though I do have mixed feelings about that). Apparently Covington is healthy and willing, but the UFC is rewarding Usman for offering to fight Woodley or Covington on short notice in January. If anybody needed more evidence that interim titles don't matter....

On the other hand though, good. f*** Colby. His act is so obnoxious and he's not even good at it.

 

[member 51464]

Colby can fight Till.

 

[m9]

You got your wish. Woodley-Usman official for UFC 235.

Great fight and great top of the card. I just think it should be Covington (though I do have mixed feelings about that). Apparently Covington is healthy and willing, but the UFC is rewarding Usman for offering to fight Woodley or Covington on short notice in January. If anybody needed more evidence that interim titles don't matter....

On the other hand though, good. **** Colby. His act is so obnoxious and he's not even good at it.

I would have preferred Woodley/Covington, Usman/Askren, and Lawler/Thompson (as was first rumoured) if I was making fights. But, this works.

Woodley is my #1 guy that I'm extremely excited to watch when he's a co-main but doesn't completely do it for me as the main event. If Woodley is the co-main I know we've got a big fight at the top.

 

[m9]

Colby can fight Till.

Till is probably moving up to 185lbs.

 

[Avs_19]

He was probably saying he took the Shogun fight on 4 weeks notice. He fought Rashad in June and then Shogun in July.

It was from this article:

Anthony Smith has Jon Jones' attention but wonders about UFC champ's true intent

I just saw that last part about fighting him on four weeks notice and assumed the event was next month but when you read the full article you see what he was getting at. He has plenty of time to prepare for the fight with it getting announced now.

 

[pistolpete11]

I would have preferred Woodley/Covington, Usman/Askren, and Lawler/Thompson (as was first rumoured) if I was making fights. But, this works.

Woodley is my #1 guy that I'm extremely excited to watch when he's a co-main but doesn't completely do it for me as the main event. If Woodley is the co-main I know we've got a big fight at the top.

With all the shit that has been said, I think Woodley-Covington would have been a fine main event. They've had much worse. But I agree, Woodley as a co-main is a good thing.

By the way, not sure if anyone saw, but Pettis called at Wonderboy and Wonderboy said let's do it. What a terrible matchup.

 

[Neutrinos]

Colby should be fighting Askren with the winner fighting for the belt this summer

 

[Kevin27NYI]

Really would rather watch Woodley and Colby

 

[m9]

Sounds like UFC 232 did around 900k, which is a pretty crazy number. Was expecting something around 600k at the most. I think all of the controversy and moving the fight really helped in terms of promotion.