GDT: UFC 232: Jones vs. Gustafsson 2

[BGDDYKWL]

i don't think it's a difference in power, but rather a difference in speed. Cormier is too fast for most heavyweights. IMO, speed matters more than pure power when it comes to knockouts as the most dangerous shots that puts you down are the ones you don't see coming.

Against Jones, it wouldn't make much of a difference, unless Jones screws up and puts too much weight slowing him down.

The difference could be negligible, but there's no question you're gonna have more power when you not only have more weight on you, but also aren't completely depleting your body.

 

[m9]

I think there's a difference in power when he's at HW.

More power at HW, sure.

The reason I don't think he's better at HW - I don't think his wrestling is as much of an advantage. He can toss around everyone at 205, but I don't think it's that easy at HW against the other elite wrestlers.

 

[m9]

I'm giving him grief but I'm not sure he's getting a ton in general. A lot gets said, but if you ask DC where he prefers fighting, and where he feels he's at his best, he'd say HW. Jones feels he's best at 205. Jones has beyond nothing to prove at 205, but cements his GOAT legacy with the HW strap as well. And he's already expressed interest in a Lesnar fight at HW. Why run it back at 205 when you have so much more to gain doing it at HW, unless you're concerned about it?

I said I'm not sure why Jones is getting heat, but let's be honest.. it's because it's Jon Jones and people don't like him. That's fine, he's earned the hate.

As for Jones legacy, in my opinion it already is what it is and beating Cormier for a 3rd time doesn't change it. He would still be the greatest ever in terms of accomplishments with an obvious asterisk. People aren't going to forgive everything because he beats DC at a higher weight.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Do you think the same of GSP never moving up to fight Anderson Silva?

I don't see that as a comparable situation. GSP would've been giving up a lot of size to Silva. Jones could add some muscle and he'd still be bigger than Cormier at heavyweight would he not.

GSP also didn't have a heated rivalry with Silva and never called him out to come fight at welterweight. Beyond that, going up and winning the heavyweight title would likely cement Jones as the goat so why not do it?

 

[Muston Atthews]

The women’s fight was amazing. Jones is the GOAT

 

[m9]

I don't see that as a comparable situation. GSP would've been giving up a lot of size to Silva. Jones could add some muscle and he'd still be bigger than Cormier at heavyweight would he not.

GSP also didn't have a heated rivalry with Silva and never called him out to come fight at welterweight. Beyond that, going up and winning the heavyweight title would likely cement Jones as the goat so why not do it?

As mentioned above, beating Cormier again doesn't do much for Jones legacy as the GOAT. Based on resume, he already is. If you don't think he is, it's purely because of his suspensions and another win over Cormier won't change that. I am fine with either opinion.

As for GSP/Silva, GSP has said when he was offered the Silva fight that he wouldn't move up to 185lbs and insisted on a catch weight because of the effects on his body. It turns out GSP was right, because when he eventually did move up to 185lbs he developed colitis in part due to the extreme calorie intake. And now people want Jones to add all that weight to chase a guy he already beat twice?

Anyways, I'm in the minority who doesn't care about this fight. I'd rather see DC v Miocic & Jones v Anthony Smith or whoever is up next.

 

[DaaaaB's]

As mentioned above, beating Cormier again doesn't do much for Jones legacy as the GOAT. Based on resume, he already is. If you don't think he is, it's purely because of his suspensions and another win over Cormier won't change that. I am fine with either opinion.

As for GSP/Silva, GSP has said when he was offered the Silva fight that he wouldn't move up to 185lbs and insisted on a catch weight because of the effects on his body. It turns out GSP was right, because when he eventually did move up to 185lbs he developed colitis in part due to the extreme calorie intake. And now people want Jones to add all that weight to chase a guy he already beat twice?

Anyways, I'm in the minority who doesn't care about this fight. I'd rather see DC v Miocic & Jones v Anthony Smith or whoever is up next.

Beating Cormier at hw won't change much in my mind either as I'd probably say Jones is already the goat. The suspensions do make me hesitate but I doubt his record is any different without peds.

That being said, his legacy will be greater if he becomes champ at hw too. People might not remember who he fought but theyll remember that he went up won the hw title. I didn't realize it was so hard on the body to add muscle tho (knew it was hard but not so dangerous) so that's a legit reason for Jones to not take the fight. I was just annoyed with him telling DC to come back to lhw when I thought it would be easier for him to move up to hw. Guess that's not the case tho.

I'm fine with not seeing a 3rd fight either, definitely rather see Stipe get a rematch. Wish there was better competition for Jones but like someone in here said, Silva and GSP defended their belts against some guys who weren't close to their level.

 

[m9]

Beating Cormier at hw won't change much in my mind either as I'd probably say Jones is already the goat. The suspensions do make me hesitate but I doubt his record is any different without peds.

That being said, his legacy will be greater if he becomes champ at hw too. People might not remember who he fought but theyll remember that he went up won the hw title. I didn't realize it was so hard on the body to add muscle tho (knew it was hard but not so dangerous) so that's a legit reason for Jones to not take the fight. I was just annoyed with him telling DC to come back to lhw when I thought it would be easier for him to move up to hw. Guess that's not the case tho.

I'm fine with not seeing a 3rd fight either, definitely rather see Stipe get a rematch. Wish there was better competition for Jones but like someone in here said, Silva and GSP defended their belts against some guys who weren't close to their level.

It would be cool to see Jones fight some different/better competiton, I just don't think he should feel obligated to fight in a higher weight class when he's had no weight-cutting issues and is obviously built for 205lbs.

I just think many people don't like him and want to see him fail and the most likely way that happens is someone KOs him.

 

[pistolpete11]

It would be cool to see Jones fight some different/better competiton, I just don't think he should feel obligated to fight in a higher weight class when he's had no weight-cutting issues and is obviously built for 205lbs.

I just think many people don't like him and want to see him fail and the most likely way that happens is someone KOs him.

I completely agree that he doesn't need to go chasing DC to HW. He beat him twice, so he could just sit back and laugh if he wants to. But the question is what is he fighting for? Money? Legacy? Easy pay check?

If it's for money, the biggest fight is DC at HW.
If it's for legacy, it's the HW belt regardless of who has it. The fact it would be DC right now is icing on the cake.
If he wants an easy pay check, then sure, anybody in the LHW division would be the easiest fight for him.

Either way, how he's going about this so far is terrible. He's calling out DC to fight him at 205.

First of all, champs shouldn't be calling out anyone. People should be calling out the champ. Second, you already beat him twice. Shit, Nate Diaz played the trilogy with Conor cooler than that and he lost one of those fights.

If you do want to be the bully...tell DC you could slap his wife on the ass...that he's your bitch...you can't call him out, but then only want to do it at 205 because you like your chances better there than at HW. He's either your bitch or he's not. It can't be "You're my bitch....but only at LHW". And then he said DC's a great champion and that he can have his at HW and Jones will have his at LHW. Like pick a lane, dude. You're either the respectful Christian champion (which we all know he isn't) or the heal (which is the direction he should have gone years ago because that's who he really is).

How great would it have been if he said something like "DC, I just took your LHW belt from you and next I'm coming to take your HW belt from you *micdrop*" That forces the UFC's and DC's hand and sets up what could be the biggest non-Conor fight in history. It would still be a huge fight now, but he's missing out on some great promotion IMO by being this God loving phony.

 

[BGDDYKWL]

That being said, his legacy will be greater if he becomes champ at hw too. People might not remember who he fought but theyll remember that he went up won the hw title. I didn't realize it was so hard on the body to add muscle tho (knew it was hard but not so dangerous) so that's a legit reason for Jones to not take the fight. I was just annoyed with him telling DC to come back to lhw when I thought it would be easier for him to move up to hw. Guess that's not the case tho.

Jones is already the GOAT IMO, but he furthers his lead considerably if he becomes HW champ as well. In terms of adding muscle to the body, generally by this point/age in fighters' careers, it's not going to be terribly easy. That said, Jones is in perfect shape at 225 and DC is probably in his optimal shape (for fighting) at around 240. If both have the same bodyfat Jones would actually weigh more, so Jones risking health putting on size isn't really a concern here. He'd likely weigh 230, and DC would likely weigh 245. To your point, it's much easier for him to get to HW than DC to get to 205 because they both walk around at HW, and they're both HWs without weight-cutting. Jones knows it's an advantage for DC to have the fight at HW, and whether he doesn't want that because he's legitimately concerned (which I doubt) or simply because he doesn't like DC and doesn't feel he needs to do him any favors would be the only question.

 

[BGDDYKWL]

I completely agree that he doesn't need to go chasing DC to HW. He beat him twice, so he could just sit back and laugh if he wants to. But the question is what is he fighting for? Money? Legacy? Easy pay check?

If it's for money, the biggest fight is DC at HW.
If it's for legacy, it's the HW belt regardless of who has it. The fact it would be DC right now is icing on the cake.
If he wants an easy pay check, then sure, anybody in the LHW division would be the easiest fight for him.

Great question and great points. And the first two are exactly why I feel a DC fight at HW makes the most sense for him. Biggest boost to his legacy, and the biggest boost to his bank account. He has absolutely zero to gain fighting someone like Anthony Smith other than an easy win and a solid paycheck.

 

[m9]

Jones is already the GOAT IMO, but he furthers his lead considerably if he becomes HW champ as well. In terms of adding muscle to the body, generally by this point/age in fighters' careers, it's not going to be terribly easy. That said, Jones is in perfect shape at 225 and DC is probably in his optimal shape (for fighting) at around 240. If both have the same bodyfat Jones would actually weigh more, so Jones risking health putting on size isn't really a concern here. He'd likely weigh 230, and DC would likely weigh 245. To your point, it's much easier for him to get to HW than DC to get to 205 because they both walk around at HW, and they're both HWs without weight-cutting. Jones knows it's an advantage for DC to have the fight at HW, and whether he doesn't want that because he's legitimately concerned (which I doubt) or simply because he doesn't like DC and doesn't feel he needs to do him any favors would be the only question.

The other side is that Jones has a ton to risk with the DC fight at HW in terms of legacy. A loss and in my opinion it's no question that people consider DC the GOAT. DC has essentially nothing to lose. Maybe Jones owes that opportunity to DC for everything he's put him through, but from a legacy standpoint Jones is better off leaving the DC door closed.

 

[pistolpete11]

The other side is that Jones has a ton to risk with the DC fight at HW in terms of legacy. A loss and in my opinion it's no question that people consider DC the GOAT. DC has essentially nothing to lose. Maybe Jones owes that opportunity to DC for everything he's put him through, but from a legacy standpoint Jones is better off leaving the DC door closed.

You think so? DC at least put himself into the conversation as the GOAT by beating Stipe. He has Jones' PED issues as an excuse and the excuse that maybe he should have been fighting at HW this whole time. If he loses to Jones at HW too, assuming Jones passes all the tests, DC's out of the discussion IMO.

Jones very well could be the GOAT if he retired today. I think there is a case to be made for GSP and/or Anderson. If Jones were to win the HW belt though, especially against someone like DC, I don't think there is a discussion. But you're right. Maybe he's happy with where his legacy is now and just wants to collect a couple more paychecks against these LHW's.

I think it is pretty even risk/reward for both guys. Not to mention the money they'd make.

 

[pistolpete11]

By the way, does anyone else feel that the DC-Brock fight either isn't going to happen and/or is kind of losing some of it's luster? It's taking too long and with all the drama with Jones-DC, it feels like DC-Jones 3 at HW could be just as big of a fight.

 

[BGDDYKWL]

By the way, does anyone else feel that the DC-Brock fight either isn't going to happen and/or is kind of losing some of it's luster? It's taking too long and with all the drama with Jones-DC, it feels like DC-Jones 3 at HW could be just as big of a fight.

100%. I've had that feeling for a while now. Not to get too much into the WWE, but their main guy suffered a serious illness right when Brock was planning to leave, and Vince threw a ton of money at Brock to come back. I think he was serious about returning to fight DC, but the longer the announcement of their fight gets delayed the more I think it ain't happening. Brock's also been getting in worse and worse shape. And I realize some point to USADA, but it doesn't look to me like he's seriously training for a return. The only encouraging sign is he isn't advertised at all for upcoming WWE events beyond the end of January. What it seems, and Dana has alluded to it, is Brock is right about to return to the UFC, and Vince throws so much money at him he can't decline. Brock's scheduled for Raw Monday. I'm very curious to see what kind of shape he's in. If it's noticeably better, then I'd be more inclined to think we'll see him in the UFC again, if not, I think that ship has sailed.

And to your second point, I do agree that DC/Jones III, particularly at HW, could very well beat DC-Brock in terms of PPV numbers.

 

[BGDDYKWL]

The other side is that Jones has a ton to risk with the DC fight at HW in terms of legacy. A loss and in my opinion it's no question that people consider DC the GOAT. DC has essentially nothing to lose. Maybe Jones owes that opportunity to DC for everything he's put him through, but from a legacy standpoint Jones is better off leaving the DC door closed.

I don't think I'd ever give a guy a third shot at me, as you mention, lot to lose and virtually nothing to gain. If DC beat Jones at HW, particularly in dominant fashion, that GOAT discussion becomes VERY interesting. For me personally, if Jones beats DC at 205, but DC beats him at HW, DC is tougher. Not necessarily more skilled, or more technical, but he's the quote unquote better fighter. I'm more interested in two guys at 100% then guys perhaps not at their peak because of a bad weight cut or whatever. And I'll never understand why DC struggles so much to make 205, but for whatever reason he seems to.

 

[Neutrinos]

The delay could be Brock having to wait until all the PEDs are out of his system

With that said, I'm guessing this could be Lesnar's last fight, and both he and the UFC would prefer it were against Jones

 

[m9]

You think so? DC at least put himself into the conversation as the GOAT by beating Stipe. He has Jones' PED issues as an excuse and the excuse that maybe he should have been fighting at HW this whole time. If he loses to Jones at HW too, assuming Jones passes all the tests, DC's out of the discussion IMO.

Jones very well could be the GOAT if he retired today. I think there is a case to be made for GSP and/or Anderson. If Jones were to win the HW belt though, especially against someone like DC, I don't think there is a discussion. But you're right. Maybe he's happy with where his legacy is now and just wants to collect a couple more paychecks against these LHW's.

I think it is pretty even risk/reward for both guys. Not to mention the money they'd make.

I don't think Jones beating DC at HW changes much. People who think Jones is a cheat will continue to think he's a cheat and discount his accomplishments.

I don't think I'd ever give a guy a third shot at me, as you mention, lot to lose and virtually nothing to gain. If DC beat Jones at HW, particularly in dominant fashion, that GOAT discussion becomes VERY interesting. For me personally, if Jones beats DC at 205, but DC beats him at HW, DC is tougher. Not necessarily more skilled, or more technical, but he's the quote unquote better fighter. I'm more interested in two guys at 100% then guys perhaps not at their peak because of a bad weight cut or whatever. And I'll never understand why DC struggles so much to make 205, but for whatever reason he seems to.

I agree with this. And yeah, if DC cleanly beat Jones at HW I think he becomes the GOAT. They each would have one clean win vs the other and since being the "GOAT" is as much public perception as it is actual accomplishments, it's a no brainer that DC become the top guy of all time. And this is all exactly why people (especially Jones haters) want this fight - it's the easiest way to erase Jones from the discussion and make DC the man.

As for the other part about Jones staying at 205lbs.. yeah, the next couple of fights look kind of easy. But after that, who knows what will come up? Things change quickly, especially when Jones is involved. Lots of the best of all-time had a few easier defenses mixed in. Maybe I'm just tired of the guys jumping around divisions and everything wanting multiple belts, but I just want these belts being defended as often as possible against the next guy up.

 

[LSCII]

Jones doesn't need to beat DC at HW to be considered the GOAT. He needs to beat a piss test, which he's failed at multiple times.

 

[darko]

By the way, does anyone else feel that the DC-Brock fight either isn't going to happen and/or is kind of losing some of it's luster? It's taking too long and with all the drama with Jones-DC, it feels like DC-Jones 3 at HW could be just as big of a fight.

Brock just finished his cycle.

 

[pistolpete11]

I don't think Jones beating DC at HW changes much. People who think Jones is a cheat will continue to think he's a cheat and discount his accomplishments.

But it's a risk for DC, too.

And if Jones can't further his legacy by winning the HW belt, then he sure as hell isn't going to do it by beating Anthony Smith or anybody else on the horizon in the LHW division. Maybe he only cares about the money, but the biggest money is DC at HW.

 

[m9]

But it's a risk for DC, too.

And if Jones can't further his legacy by winning the HW belt, then he sure as hell isn't going to do it by beating Anthony Smith or anybody else on the horizon in the LHW division. Maybe he only cares about the money, but the biggest money is DC at HW.

It's not really a risk for DC. If Jones beats him again, Jones is still better and DC is still one of the top p4p guys. Nothing really changes. So what changes?

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

How long until homeboy is suspened again? Lol. Hes got more lives than a cat it seems.

 

[pistolpete11]

It's not really a risk for DC. If Jones beats him again, Jones is still better and DC is still one of the top p4p guys. Nothing really changes. So what changes?

You don't see how losing to Jones at HW effects DC's legacy? DC was able to step out of Jones' shadow a bit by becoming the HW champ and it put himself into the GOAT discussion. (I think he's a notch below, but...). If Jones comes and takes that from him, too, he has nothing left except the PED excuses.

I know you think that people will completely discredit everything Jones has done or ever will do because of the PED stuff, but it's simply not true. Sure, there are some people that will, but they are the vocal minority. Google Greatest MMA Fighters Ever and Jones is almost always #1 or #2. Not liking Jones, thinking he's a cheat, and putting him in the GOAT discussion are not mutually exclusive ideas either. Becoming HW champ would be another feather in his cap.

Of course there is a reward for DC and a risk for Jones as well, but that's what makes it so intriguing. There's a lot on the line for both guys.

 

[m9]

You don't see how losing to Jones at HW effects DC's legacy? DC was able to step out of Jones' shadow a bit by becoming the HW champ and it put himself into the GOAT discussion. (I think he's a notch below, but...). If Jones comes and takes that from him, too, he has nothing left except the PED excuses.

I know you think that people will completely discredit everything Jones has done or ever will do because of the PED stuff, but it's simply not true. Sure, there are some people that will, but they are the vocal minority. Google Greatest MMA Fighters Ever and Jones is almost always #1 or #2. Not liking Jones, thinking he's a cheat, and putting him in the GOAT discussion are not mutually exclusive ideas either. Becoming HW champ would be another feather in his cap.

Of course there is a reward for DC and a risk for Jones as well, but that's what makes it so intriguing. There's a lot on the line for both guys.

You're kind of stepping over yourself here. So in your first bolded line, you say it isn't true. Then in the second bolded line.. you say it is true?

The second part is all I have ever said. I think there's a segment of the MMA population (fans, media) that think Jones is the best all-time and I think there's a smaller segment that think he is essentially ineligible because of PED's. Though I fall into the "Jones is the GOAT" pool, I don't have a big issue with people who want to toss him aside because of the drug tests. It's a reasonable stance based on the information we currently have about drug use in the sport and the testing. The only segment I really disagree with is people who would have Jones behind GSP/Silva/Fedor based on accomplishments in the cage.. which is just wrong.

As for legacy, well once again you have kind of already said it yourself and bolded above - Jones is #1 or #2 everywhere. DC, say down in the #3-#6 range. If Jones wins.. that number doesn't change. DC's # doesn't change with a loss. If DC wins.. DC vaults up to #1, while Jones falls back to at least #2 and possibly lower. So no, there isn't "a lot on the line" in terms of legacy for both guys. There is a ton on the line for Jones, and almost nothing for DC in terms of legacy.

I would like DC to beat Miocic again, beat Lesnar if that fight can happen, then maybe beat someone like Werdum (when he's back) or whoever else is at the top of the division. Complete your resume as the best HW of all-time and the best LHW of all-time. Those are all winnable fights and you will be considered the 2nd best fighter of all-time. Then when Jon Jones screws up again (which he probably will), you will be back in the discussion for best ever.

Jones needs to fight 2-3 times in 2019 at 205lbs against the top challenger and test clean. Then, go from there. No need to plan further.