WJC: U.S. WJC Discussion

[SChan*]

did samuelsson play for USA?

 

[ponder]

Pretty surprised by how terrible they've been this year, on paper they looked like easily the 2nd best team in group B, and they won't even finish top 3. They might be able to save a little face tomorrow, Canada have already clinched the division while the Americans *should* be playing hard to avoid further embarrassment, but somehow I feel they'll just get blown out regardless, even if Canada aren't really trying.

 

[AmericanDream]

I just had a conversation with someone about this...Any one of the NCAA players playing on the U.S. roster could make the jump and play major junior. They just chose to stay in the states. The margin of skill between the NCAA guys that we have on this team and the american CHL players that were left off the roster is very slim. Remember the majority of canadians only get to see the american players that are playing in the CHL. They don't watch much college hockey or U.S. junior hockey, so the only time that they get to see guys like Kyle Rau, Coyle, Zucker...ect is in these international tourmanents. And if they have a bad game like they did against the Fins, then they all asume they are duds and the U.S. CHL players would make the world of a difference. Don't take this post the wrong way, i'm NOT pro USHL/NCAA and anti Major Junior.

I know RWG touched on this already, but I wanted to chime in a bit as well.

I think this is a classic misconception of why some of us want more CHL Americans on these squads. I simply dont feel that the talent level is way higher in the CHL then the NCAA....I agree 100% that it is a pretty slim difference overall when you get down to it.

The main issue is and will always be about the type of game that is played in the CHL, the amount of games played in the CHL, and the amount of opponents you will face from the CHL. These are the main issues that some of us have.

The CHL isnt just about Canadian kids only, the league is a flippin melting pot now. You will be playing against numerous enemies from all different countries that have players playing in the CHL. It still drives me crazy that the US picks teams more "familiar" with each other then the enemy.

I want players that have gone to battle night in and night out against the majority of my competition. Our NCAA kids simply do not face off against many kids that will play on any other country....it is a fact.

The style of play in the CHL is more in your face, up tempo, physical hockey...and when you have a solid balance of CHL Americans on your team familiar with this, it only helps the rest of the team adjust much quicker. When you dont have this, your team looks flat and intimidated which it has this year. Granted they didnt play against a ton of CHLers yet, but most looked like deers in the headlights out there...

Bottom line is exactly what RWG said: BALANCE. We need a better balance when picking these teams. More and more of our higher end kids are going the CHL route, so the balance does need to be swinging upwards of more CHL Americans on these squads. This year is the biggest wake up call I can remember.

Having only 1 CHL dman on this team is simply inexcusable. Tinordi looked like a beast out there, him and Johns actually looked like they wanted to be out there, the rest simply didnt.

Austin Levi would have been a wonderous choice over Gravel, and not having Connor Murphy hurts, but his familiarity with the CHL would have been very limited anyways...

There needs to be a better balance out there like the 2010 team had....Levi or Hanson from Portland should have been on this squad just because they have much more experience with playing against this type of talent.

 

[AmericanDream]

did samuelsson play for USA?

nope, possibly next year

 

[ShotDownCrosby]

I hear. Similar with his team mate Tyler Toffoli not making the Canadian squad.. You never know what the coach is looking for.

Your team just isn't playing very well, not as good as the parts it has that's for sure. Hopefully you don't start tomorrow.

BUT Canada has not lost to Finland and the Czech. So, it's a little different.

 

[King King]

Ouch. Time to root for Russia, I guess.

Rodina Mat Zovyot

 

[NotProkofievian]

While offense was a problem for the states today, the team defense was just not up to par. I think that was the bigger issue in seeing the game in person. The defense just yielded too much time and space to the Czechs. There were way too many 2 on 1, 3 on 1's given up. Also, there was literally no creativity on the blue-line. If you watch Canada's O-zone play, d men are routinely switching points and getting the defenders running around in their own zone.

USA had enough talent up front to get the job done, but there was no support from the blue line.

 

[ShotDownCrosby]

And the coaches, for whatever reason, felt otherwise. Great he was pissed, so what? He can either use it as motivation to get better and put himself in a situation where they can't cut him next year, or he can go the route you seem to be suggesting and hold a grudge and ignore US hockey because he got cut. One route shows a willingness to be a team player and one shows a complete me first attitude. And US hockey won't be the one looking bad if Prince decides to be a dick about it.

Who says Prince won't go out and prove he's a great player? It doesn't mean he will show it with the States, but he very well may show he's a great player in other leagues.

Simply because a coach cuts someone, doesn't actually mean he was the right guy to cut. Likewise, just because he thinks he shouldn't have been cut, doesn't mean he shouldn't have been.

 

[Alberta tough]

I know RWG touched on this already, but I wanted to chime in a bit as well.

I think this is a classic misconception of why some of us want more CHL Americans on these squads. I simply dont feel that the talent level is way higher in the CHL then the NCAA....I agree 100% that it is a pretty slim difference overall when you get down to it.

The main issue is and will always be about the type of game that is played in the CHL, the amount of games played in the CHL, and the amount of opponents you will face from the CHL. These are the main issues that some of us have.

The CHL isnt just about Canadian kids only, the league is a flippin melting pot now. You will be playing against numerous enemies from all different countries that have players playing in the CHL. It still drives me crazy that the US picks teams more "familiar" with each other then the enemy.

I want players that have gone to battle night in and night out against the majority of my competition. Our NCAA kids simply do not face off against many kids that will play on any other country....it is a fact.

The style of play in the CHL is more in your face, up tempo, physical hockey...and when you have a solid balance of CHL Americans on your team familiar with this, it only helps the rest of the team adjust much quicker. When you dont have this, your team looks flat and intimidated which it has this year. Granted they didnt play against a ton of CHLers yet, but most looked like deers in the headlights out there...

Bottom line is exactly what RWG said: BALANCE. We need a better balance when picking these teams. More and more of our higher end kids are going the CHL route, so the balance does need to be swinging upwards of more CHL Americans on these squads. This year is the biggest wake up call I can remember.

Having only 1 CHL dman on this team is simply inexcusable. Tinordi looked like a beast out there, him and Johns actually looked like they wanted to be out there, the rest simply didnt.

Austin Levi would have been a wonderous choice over Gravel, and not having Connor Murphy hurts, but his familiarity with the CHL would have been very limited anyways...

There needs to be a better balance out there like the 2010 team had....Levi or Hanson from Portland should have been on this squad just because they have much more experience with playing against this type of talent.

Not trying to kick sand in the face of you guys but the teams that you lost to did not have that many CHL players as well. Also the CHL players on the US team this year were just as guilty as the NCAA players with regards to the losses.

 

[AmericanDream]

after taking a breather....

not sure what happened with Charlie Coyle, but the loss of him and Forbort really did cement our fate....

I have to throw a few positives in an otherwise bleak and horrible situation:

T.J Tynan is going to be a player. I have watched him for many moons since his days here in midget (Illinois), and the kid is fearless and always around the puck. I like what I have seen from him and I think he can be a solid professional player if he continues to progress.

Nick Bjugstad is the real deal. The kid can flat out fly for a big boy. That kid at times looked like the only US player out there actually giving it his all when skating and taking the body. A very bright future is ahead for Bjugstad.

J.T Miller has a ton of heart. Outside of Bjugstad, he was the only player that really stepped up and tried to give a spark to this team. He absolutely destroyed players out there and his effort was 110% every shift. He is going to be a player. Proud of him.

Billy Arnold showed up again tonight as a gutty two way player. I liked the kid well before his draft and I will continue to support him as a future professional player. He has enough offense to make it to the show, and he looked like one of our top 6 players instead of a bottom 6 role that many expected....which is also our downfall as well.

Jarred Tinordi isnt the clumsy fool he once was. This kid actually was our best dman almost every game, and with Merrill looking timid and Clendening not showing off that blast, it was Tinordi manning our power play unit much of the time. Impressive.

Kyle Rau, Czarnick, and Archibald didnt belong on this team...although some of them showed flashes of grit and speed, they all pretty much were skating around aimlessly with very little jam. Too many smaller players that didnt play physical. Jared Knight and Vincent Trocheck are smaller players, but both are very physical as well.

I will forever love Jack "Mother ****ing" Campbell, but he simply just didmt have it. Neither did John Gibson to be honest. When the team was flat, and it needed a save from our goalie, neither supplied it which really hurt us overall. Goaltending has been a strength the past 2 years, thought it would be again as well, this was very surprising to see happen.

As for Jason Zucker, Charlie Coyle, and Emerson Etem; more was expected. As returnee players, you will always be looked at as the leaders of this team especially offensively. Zucker wasnt even noticeable out there much of the game, and Etem simply didnt show the drive to the net that he has shown all year long in the WHL.

Coyle obviously had something going on with him this game, but he was the one kid that could have turned this all around, and I am still not sure what happened with him. He will be a great player, but not a good note to leave on.

And finally coaching gets a big fat F. I cant believe I am even saying that with Dean Blais at the helm. I saw no fire in Dean, all of his interviews were very low key and was as if he was just expecting these kids to wake up without having to do something about it. I did not like his lines much of the time as there was simply no chemistry to be found. Just like Jack Campbell, I think the magic wore off Blais as well. Bad showing.

I want to see Mike Vellucci or Kevin Constatine as a coach next year if we cant get a Scott Gordon or someone with pro experience as the coach.

....oh yeah, and we need more CHL Americans......WAKE THE **** UP JOHANSSON AND DEGRIGORIO!

 

[SabresSharks]

I was astounded at the lack of routine, fundamental hockey plays today: sloppy passing, mishandled passes, terrible changes, missed d-zone coverage, 2 teammates going for a loose puck, 2 teammates backing off a loose puck. Way too often it appeared that the players had stepped on the ice with each other for the first time.

Although I'm annually disappointed by some of USA Hockey's WJC decisions, none of the above is explained by selection bias. The sloppy play combined with a stellar opposing goalie resulted in today's embarrassment.

Concerning CHL experience ... US kids playing in the OHL, for example, play nobody from the QMJHL or WHL, unless their team makes the Memorial Cup. The benefit of selecting kids who have head-to-head experience against fellow CHLers is mostly illusory.

 

[AmericanDream]

Not trying to kick sand in the face of you guys but the teams that you lost to did not have that many CHL players as well. Also the CHL players on the US team this year were just as guilty as the NCAA players with regards to the losses.

Agreed, I stated that in another post as well...

This isnt a cop out or an excuse, but if we are picking teams with players from the USNDP or NCAA that are familiar with one another, and the outcome is this....then we need more CHL Americans every year.

I simply want more players that play a more professional schedule, a more physical schedule, against players that they will see from other countries....

I also want the best players possible, and we simply didnt bring the best this year and it showed.

 

[AmericanDream]

I was astounded at the lack of routine, fundamental hockey plays today: sloppy passing, mishandled passes, terrible changes, missed d-zone coverage, 2 teammates going for a loose puck, 2 teammates backing off a loose puck. Way too often it appeared that the players had stepped on the ice with each other for the first time.

Although I'm annually disappointed by some of USA Hockey's WJC decisions, none of the above is explained by selection bias. The sloppy play combined with a stellar opposing goalie resulted in today's embarrassment.

Concerning CHL experience ... US kids playing in the OHL, for example, play nobody from the QMJHL or WHL, unless their team makes the Memorial Cup. The benefit of selecting kids who have head-to-head experience against fellow CHLers is mostly illusory.

to your last part, not sure why so many of you arent understanding this. you are missing the point.

its not about seeing all of your enemies, it is about having CHL Americans on this team because they play a tougher schedule, or more physical game in the CHL, and will play against opponents they see on a nightly basis. It might only be a couple, but I would rather have kids that have experience playing against 2-3 kids on Finland, then having 0 which we did. It does make an overall difference, especially with the type of game that is played in the CHL.

When we have a balanced team of CHL to NCAA Americans on our team, we win medals....hardly illusory....it is proven more times then naught.

 

[SabresSharks]

Agreed, I stated that in another post as well...

This isnt a cop out or an excuse, but if we are picking teams with players from the USNDP or NCAA that are familiar with one another, and the outcome is this....then we need more CHL Americans every year.

I simply want more players that play a more professional schedule, a more physical schedule, against players that they will see from other countries....

I also want the best players possible, and we simply didnt bring the best this year and it showed.

By your logic every decent 15 year old American kid should be setting his sights on playing for a CHL team, so they "play a more professional schedule, a more physical schedule, against players that they will see from other countries", right?

Where does that leave the NCAA, the NTDP, and USA Hockey for that matter?

I'm no fan of USA Hockey, but your slant is simply unrealistic. Besides, USA hockey has improved greatly since the advent of the NTDP.

Let's not get carried away because of one disappointing tournament.

 

[Danny Woodhead]

Nothing more disappointing than seeing all these quotes after the game about the amount of posts they hit, and how this just wasn't their night. Come on. If you don't recognize that you played like crap for two games, then I'm not too optimistic of better results in the future.

Also, since I might have access to only one college game a week on tv and no junior games, I can't speak of the merits of guys like Prince or Knight being on this team. But if the accusations are true about picking favorites by USA Hockey, then hopefully this is a wake-up call to stop putzing around.

 

[Bibeen]

Who was USA best player during the tourney?

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

Anyone watch Zucker's post game comments? I think having him as the captain was one of the major problems.

"We played an excellent game and our team was outstanding. We had a near perfect game..."

What game were you watching, captain?

 

[Rabid Ranger]

What really kills me is both of these games were there for the taking. Third period collapses really point to a lack of leadership and coaching, which is surprising considering who is at the helm.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Anyone watch Zucker's post game comments? I think having him as the captain was one of the major problems.

"We played an excellent game and our team was outstanding. We had a near perfect game..."

What game were you watching,
captain?

Zucker is a heart and soul type. I'm not going to fault him. The bottomline is the U.S. simply didn't execute against the Finns and Czechs despite having huge shot advantages. No finish.

 

[SabresSharks]

What really kills me is both of these games were there for the taking. Third period collapses really point to a lack of leadership and coaching, which is surprising considering who is at the helm.

Going into the 3rd in both losses I was thinking "A goal or two and we take this. Winning when you play poorly is the mark of a championship team."

Boy, was I wrong.

 

[rick3652]

to your last part, not sure why so many of you arent understanding this. you are missing the point.

its not about seeing all of your enemies, it is about having CHL Americans on this team because they play a tougher schedule, or more physical game in the CHL, and will play against opponents they see on a nightly basis. It might only be a couple, but I would rather have kids that have experience playing against 2-3 kids on Finland, then having 0 which we did. It does make an overall difference, especially with the type of game that is played in the CHL.

When we have a balanced team of CHL to NCAA Americans on our team, we win medals....hardly illusory....it is proven more times then naught.

Lets look at it for real. US hockey is not as good as US hockey fans think. Every player that plays for the US team is GREAT if you do not believe it just ask an US hockey Fan.

You won the gold two years ago came third last year what did you do before that. So the last two years was a fluke.

Your best players would not make team Canada.

 

[SabresSharks]

Lets look at it for real. US hockey is not as good as US hockey fans think. Every player that plays for the US team is GREAT if you do not believe it just ask an US hockey Fan.

You won the gold two years ago came third last year what did you do before that. So the last two years was a fluke.

Your best players would not make team Canada.

This is the arrogant lunacy that caused this Canadian expat to start cheering for the US in hockey.

Get lost, troll.

 

[AmericanDream]

By your logic every decent 15 year old American kid should be setting his sights on playing for a CHL team, so they "play a more professional schedule, a more physical schedule, against players that they will see from other countries", right?

Where does that leave the NCAA, the NTDP, and USA Hockey for that matter?

I'm no fan of USA Hockey, but your slant is simply unrealistic. Besides, USA hockey has improved greatly since the advent of the NTDP.

Let's not get carried away because of one disappointing tournament.

By my logic, yes more 15 year old Americans then ever are wanting to head to the CHL today then ever before.

You had Nick Ebert and Brady Vail last year, you have Brandon Shea, Anthony De Angelo, and Adam Erne all of this year. Yes, more and more of our most talented kids are going to the CHL, you might want to check on the numbers before you make any comments about it because it is getting much much closer then you realize.

And please dont turn this into a CHL vs NCAA thing, that isnt the issue. The issue is about balance and fairness, and that isnt happening.

You state you are no fan of USA Hockey, and you simply do not have the facts or understanding of what is going on in this nation, so leave those issues to those of us that do.

To your last point about getting carried away, again you dont follow USA Hockey, and this isnt the first time. For many of us this is probably the 4th or 5th time in the past 7 years something like this has occurred, and usually the selection process ommitted some young CHL American (s) in those years which has drawn the ire.

This is a very big issue for us, and one that simply needs to be corrected asap.

 

[VOB]

I do think that in reality many of us (myself included) simply over-rated this team. Their defense that was to be the strength of this team was billed as large, nasty and mobile. In fact they were large, inept and slow. Many of them could not even make a simple break out pass and as we all saw, they were a turn-over machine.

Everyone hailed the goal- tending tandem of Campbell and Gibson as the elite of the tourney, instead both were average at best. I am not sold on Campbell as a future NHL starter, he has been mediocre in the OHL, with atrocious rebound control and huge mental lapses. Gibson on the other hand has been tremendous in the O but for some reason he has struggled here, perhaps the woeful American defense had something to do with it.

The forward group was for the mos part nondescript. Those we counted on to score (Saad, Etem, Bjugstad, Coyle) for the most part failed to do so and much of the scoring opportunities was provided by the lesser foot soldiers.

Quite simply, this was not a very skilled or strong team and we as fans set our expectations to high and were disappointed as a result.

The only thing left now is pride so hopefully they can give Canada a good game tomorrow before going down to the relegation round.

 

[kovatroll*]

This is the arrogant lunacy that caused this Canadian expat to start cheering for the US in hockey.

Get lost, troll.

Frankly everyone is entitled to their own opinions, if the USA had somehow managed to win gold, talk about miracle on ice, you would have been shoving your egotistical winning in your face, Hockey doesn't belong to Canada anymore rants in everyone's faces.

More it's hilarious.