Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part V)

[Frank Drebin]

It's impossible for us to quantify the impact of bad development, but it's undeniable Habs completely screwed up.

Doesn't it turn into the chicken vs the egg argument though? Did he suck because he didn't play enough, or did he not play enough because he sucked? (at both NHL and AHL levels) Even at 16:00 a night, its enough to tell if you suck as a hockey player or not, (long term) don't you think?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I remember both looking solid in their first few games, very similar to how Pacioretty looked in his own debute. Not anything amazing, but you could see they could hold their own.

Remember when Patch told management that if he does not make the top 6, he wants to play AHL? I remember that comment as being a cocky one cause he saw himself as a top talent but looking back today, the guy knew what he was doing

 

[JoelWarlord]

Tinordi wasnt a good pick per se, but theres absolutely zero reasons he couldnt be a NHL player.

Yeah I agree, I think this is definitely true about Tinordi (and McCarron + maybe Leblanc for that matter).

I think Tinordi's game has kinda been forgotten and people just assume that with the low point totals he was just a coke machine with no hands but that really isn't the case. Tinordi had solid puck skills and was a good passer (obviously with the caveat of "for his size", but that doesn't really matter because he still is that size) in his limited NHL time and looked good in the AHL. I don't think he ever was going to be the dominant top pair DFD (like...idk maybe prime Vlasic?) that they expected him to be but I see no reason why with proper development he couldn't have developed into what they think Chiarot is, as in a #4 DFD that's actually good at defending and can make a solid first pass and use his size/frame on the PK.

Same with McCarron, had 40P in 60 games in the AHL at 20 years old and he definitely showed some skill, I think he could have absolutely developed into a solid 3rd line winger that can play up the lineup with the right combination of players. Again I don't think he ever was going to become a 1st line power forward like they hoped but there was definitely enough there to develop a bottom six or even middle six forward with some real skill. But for both guys they just got ruined in the AHL under Lefebvre, Tinordi they tried to turn into a goon instead of developing him as an actual hockey player, and McCarron was typecast as a pure defensive 4C despite really solid scoring in the AHL early in his career.

And Leblanc who knows but we're talking about a guy who was a capable NHL 4th liner at age 20 and then just fell off a cliff when he spent extended time in the AHL. When you look at the guys this team has actually developed in recent years it's all guys that spent very little time in the AHL. Gallagher made the jump directly to the NHL after spending half a season in the AHL during the lockout, Galchenyuk directly to the NHL, Eller direct to NHL after a year in St. Louis' AHL system. Lehkonen came directly from the SHL, Mete direct from the OHL, Danault developed in the NHL after being traded, and now with guys like Suzuki, Poehling, and Kotkaniemi it's looking like they won't spend time in the AHL either. You pretty much have to go back to Pacioretty to find an impact player that was developed in the traditional AHL to NHL system (and even he was up and down for a while). Maybe Andrighetto/Hudon if we're talking depth guys.

 

[Mrb1p]

Doesn't it turn into the chicken vs the egg argument though? Did he suck because he didn't play enough, or did he not play enough because he sucked? (at both NHL and AHL levels) Even at 16:00 a night, its enough to tell if you suck as a hockey player or not, (long term) don't you think?

Except in this case, you've clearly seen the chicken start to crack the egg. Expecting a player you draft to be a finished product is exactly why this team hasn't produced anything in a decade. Why can they live with the mistakes of Fleury so far ? He's not any different than Tinordi in his first year. The difference is they are willing to live with his mistakes. Therrien loved kicking trash cans, but he didn't love a rookie that made mistakes. Julien is doing the same thing with Kotkaniemi but somehow lives with Fleurys mistakes and Suzukis... maybe the shine will wear and theyll get the Kotkaniemi treatment.

Have you read Terry Ryan book ? It might be a good read for a development-denier like you. (Or any basic psychology book but I feel like Ive told you that twenty times in the past 10 years, so Ill move to something else.)

Remember when Patch told management that if he does not make the top 6, he wants to play AHL? I remember that comment as being a cocky one cause he saw himself as a top talent but looking back today, the guy knew what he was doing

It wasn't about playing top 6 or whatever, it was about him playing. He sat on the bench for days and he knew he needed to play to get better. He was right.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Except in this case, you've clearly seen the chicken start to crack the egg. Expecting a player you draft to be a finished product is exactly why this team hasn't produced anything in a decade. Why can they live with the mistakes of Fleury so far ? He's not any different than Tinordi in his first year. The difference is they are willing to live with his mistakes. Therrien loved kicking trash cans, but he didn't love a rookie that made mistakes. Julien is doing the same thing with Kotkaniemi but somehow lives with Fleurys mistakes and Suzukis... maybe the shine will wear and theyll get the Kotkaniemi treatment.

Have you read Terry Ryan book ? It might be a good read for a development-denier like you. (Or any basic psychology book but I feel like Ive told you that twenty times in the past 10 years, so Ill move to something else.)

I don't know enough about Tinordi's development to comment. They can live with the mistakes of Fleury and Suzuki because they are doing great things while making mistakes. They're not just out there making mistakes, and being bad.

I may read Terry Ryan's book as he seems to be a highly entertaining fella. I don't know if it will change my opinion on development though.

 

[Kriss E]

Doesn't it turn into the chicken vs the egg argument though? Did he suck because he didn't play enough, or did he not play enough because he sucked? (at both NHL and AHL levels) Even at 16:00 a night, its enough to tell if you suck as a hockey player or not, (long term) don't you think?

Well that depends, sometimes yes sometimes no. If you play a guy 20-30-40-50+ games straight for 16min, yes, that should paint you a good picture of some of his potential.
But the first year, he didn't even get 16min..he got between 6min and 15min. He only played 14-15min in 3 games out of his 8, averaging out to 11min.
Following year where he played 22 games, he played 16+ just 6 times, with an average of 14:32.
His third year with 13 games, he played even less, never hit 16 again, average of 12min.
Important to note that through those 3 seasons, he's been benched, healthy scratched, demoted to the AHL/called up on multiple occasions.

It's not like we gave Tinordi a look for even half a season with us where he played as a regular, getting his 16min of ice. I mean, FFS, his last season here in 15-16, he ''made'' the team but was a healthy scratch until....Dec 21st. Sure you can argue it was over by then, but still....almost 3 months as a healthy scratch?? wtf?

So yes, playing 16min a night over a season, sure, you can get a decent picture. But that is not what we did with Tinordi, he played 50 games in Mtl, over 4 years! The most being 22 games in a season split in two stints in the NHL.

I mean, Tinordi is the perfect example of how NOT to use a young prospect.

 

[Kriss E]

Remember when Patch told management that if he does not make the top 6, he wants to play AHL? I remember that comment as being a cocky one cause he saw himself as a top talent but looking back today, the guy knew what he was doing

Well, wasn't it obvious? People here were saying the same thing, actually, we had been saying it for years.
You want a guy to become a top 6 guy....play him in the top 6. It can be okay to make the first steps on lower lines but then you need to get promoted to more ice time and better linemates, more offensive opportunities.
Essentially what the whole DD vs Eller debate was about too.

 

[S Bah]

The Habs have four seventh round picks that are looking like possible NHLers, Cayden Primeau(Goalie), Brett Stapley(RHC), Rafael Harvey-Pinard(LW) & Jake Evans(RHC). That's some kind of great drafting by the Habs scouts and management, let's not forget Brendan Gallagher 5th round choice and star player in the NHL.

 

[The Price is Right]

Wow I would have taken Fabbri for DLR but its MB...

 

[Kriss E]

DLR is big. And he has untapped offensive potential

His offensive game was always non-existent. I think it's a true farce however how we could not develop this kid into a strong defensive player. He was pretty much ready for it when we drafted him.

 

[ashtraygirl]

Did we get anything for DLR? I’m a bit too lazy to check it out. If we did, I’d imagine that I would have preferred a return of Fabbri

 

[26Mats]

His offensive game was always non-existent. I think it's a true farce however how we could not develop this kid into a strong defensive player. He was pretty much ready for it when we drafted him.

I agree about his offense always being non-existent. I wanted to poke my eyes out every time I read a poster saying he has untapped offensive potential whenever he'd get a point here and there.

Honestly, I wouldn't want him as our 4c.

We're a roll 4 lines team and because we don't have an elite top 6, we need our 3rd and 4th line to have an iota of offense. DLR was an offensive black hole.

 

[Kriss E]

I agree about his offense always being non-existent. I wanted to poke my eyes out every time I read a poster saying he has untapped offensive potential whenever he'd get a point here and there.

Honestly, I wouldn't want him as our 4c.

We're a roll 4 lines team and because we don't have an elite top 6, we need our 3rd and 4th line to have an iota of offense. DLR was an offensive black hole.

I mean..ya..we're a 4 lines team..and we missed the POs 3/4 years. Not suggesting DLR would have helped us improve, just saying, looking at our team isn't really a convincing argument.
I think the 4th line should be specialists imo and I would play the crap out of my top guys. That's my style though, live and die with your top guys.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I agree about his offense always being non-existent. I wanted to poke my eyes out every time I read a poster saying he has untapped offensive potential whenever he'd get a point here and there.

Honestly, I wouldn't want him as our 4c.

We're a roll 4 lines team and because we don't have an elite top 6, we need our 3rd and 4th line to have an iota of offense. DLR was an offensive black hole.

except, DLR isnt any less productive offensively than our current 4th line C...

 

[26Mats]

except, DLR isnt any less productive offensively than our current 4th line C...

I'm talking about building for the future. Our current 4c isn't a part of the future plans either.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I'm talking about building for the future. Our current 4c isn't a part of the future plans either.

chances are, the future 4th C will produce about the same.

 

[26Mats]

chances are, the future 4th C will produce about the same.

I like Daniel Briere as our 4c, playing with Bournival and Weise. That line scored a lot of big goals for us during our playoff run.

I could never see DLR doing that.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I like Daniel Briere as our 4c, playing with Bournival and Weise. That line scored a lot of big goals for us during our playoff run.

I could never see DLR doing that.

4M per year...

 

[Archijerej]

His offensive game was always non-existent. I think it's a true farce however how we could not develop this kid into a strong defensive player. He was pretty much ready for it when we drafted him.

This one I tend to agree with. How do you screw up a guy like De La Rose? He was basically an NHL ready defensive forward at the age of 19. A smart puck distributor as well.

 

[habsfan891]

This one I tend to agree with. How do you screw up a guy like De La Rose? He was basically an NHL ready defensive forward at the age of 19. A smart puck distributor as well.

They screwed it up yo yoing him between Ahl and Nhl so many times

 

[Kriss E]

They screwed it up yo yoing him between Ahl and Nhl so many times

Beyond that, it's as if they didn't really know what to develop him into. In Montreal, if a prospect isn't a top 6 F or Top 3-4 D...then it's as if they don't care to develop them. With DLR, it should have been clear early on, let him focus on solidifying his defensive game. Make him into a premiere shutdown player in the NHL. There is nothing wrong with that...instead of having to sign/trade for bottom guys every year.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Which teams do you find to be very good at developing talent?

Teams that draft well and have quantity working in their favor is the trend I noticed. Having patience is also key. You can only do so much in facilitating good development environments IMO. The kid turns into who they are at some point. If you rush them, might take longer.

Having a competitive AHL team also helps for those prospects who run through that system vs overseas or in the NCAA.

 

[DAChampion]

.The kid turns into who they are at some point.

You're just posting slogans.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Boucher's act might not work for the NHL, I wish he had stayed in Hamilton instead of bolting after just 1 year for the NHL. But I always enjoyed listening to him talk hockey back then.

I want CJ replaced with Ducharme.

I think we are on the right track and Julien is doing a good job. However, Ducharme has learned all he can learn from Julien at this point. Lets hope the move to Ducharme comes sooner rather than later.

I don't mind Timmins as our GM with a hockey guy as president mentoring him too.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You're just posting slogans.

No, it's my opinion. Development is mostly on the player's hunger to improve and work hard. All a team can do is have good coaching and a positive environment.

Nothing more we could of done to develop players like Hudon, DLR, Scherbak, Beaulieu, Tinordi, etc. Maybe a better AHL team would help but how much? Not as much as you think