Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part V)

[Milhouse40]

The worst part of this was that Bergevin put DLR on waivers just to keep:
Peca, Hudon and Plekanec instead.

Was afraid to lose both Peca and Hudon if placed on waivers.
Now both of these guys are in the AHL and DLR is still in the NHL and got traded for something.

Great work, Bergevin.
Reminds of when he lost Davidson on waivers just to see the Oilers trade him for a 3rd round pick two months later.

 

[Habs Halifax]

They screwed it up yo yoing him between Ahl and Nhl so many times

Screwed up how? Explain? Would he be a better player today if we didn't have him bounced from AHL to NHL so much? I liked DLR and I was annoyed we picked Peca over him and put him on waivers.

Another question... if we didn't play him 33 games as a 19 year old would he of not had to clear waivers last season?

 

[Habs Halifax]

The worst part of this was that Bergevin put DLR on waivers just to keep:
Peca, Hudon and Plekanec instead.

Was afraid to lose both Peca and Hudon if placed on waivers.
Now both of these guys are in the AHL and DLR is still in the NHL and got traded for something.

Great work, Bergevin.
Reminds of when he lost Davidson on waivers just to see the Oilers trade him for a 3rd round pick two months later.

I agree with you on this one. Bergevin miss managed DLR. Not a impact player in your top 6 but a very good useful player in the bottom 6 or 4th line. What are the Blues plans with him? Schenn, ROR, Bozak, Thomas, Barbashev up the middle (Thomas playing wing so far though). They must be planing on playing him with Barbashev on the left side?

 

[Treb]

No, it's my opinion. Development is mostly on the player's hunger to improve and work hard. All a team can do is have good coaching and a positive environment.

Nothing more we could of done to develop players like Hudon, DLR, Scherbak, Beaulieu, Tinordi, etc. Maybe a better AHL team would help but how much? Not as much as you think

We had bad coaching and a negative environment, so the team negatively impacted the players. A smidge better would have made a huge difference for guys like Beaulieu, Leblanc and Hudon.

 

[Habs Halifax]

We had bad coaching and a negative environment, so the team negatively impacted the players. A smidge better would have made a huge difference for guys like Beaulieu, Leblanc and Hudon.

I think the environment should of been better yes. We agree on that. But do they become much better? Doubt that. Might make a difference in terms of them being NHL ready quicker though. Or they have higher trade value if you want to move them cause they are playing on better teams with better stats.

 

[DAChampion]

No, it's my opinion. Development is mostly on the player's hunger to improve and work hard. All a team can do is have good coaching and a positive environment.

Nothing more we could of done to develop players like Hudon, DLR, Scherbak, Beaulieu, Tinordi, etc. Maybe a better AHL team would help but how much? Not as much as you think

Not everything is up to opinion. Objective reality actually exists independently of people's personal preferences. Development is a real thing.

 

[Andrei79]

This one I tend to agree with. How do you screw up a guy like De La Rose? He was basically an NHL ready defensive forward at the age of 19. A smart puck distributor as well.

Just a reminder:

Nothing teams do ever has an impact on a player. What the player is and will be is entirely on the player. What you see now is exactly what would happen regardless which league, coach or usage he would have had. Development simply doesnt exist. Everyone perfectly achieves their potential, always.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Not everything is up to opinion. Objective reality actually exists independently of people's personal preferences. Development is a real thing.

You have a problem with me talking about my opinion? That's your problem. I'm not jumping on your back about yours so relax with your BS narrative and personal attack. You need to learn to drop that.

Development is a real thing. I agree. Where we don't agree is it's mostly on the player and the team can only do so much. Do you seriously think we could of developed Hudon, Scherbak, DLR, Beaulieu, Tinordi, etc into better hockey players?

 

[BaseballCoach]

You have a problem with me talking about my opinion? That's your problem. I'm not jumping on your back about yours so relax with your BS narrative and personal attack. You need to learn to drop that.

Development is a real thing. I agree. Where we don't agree is it's mostly on the player and the team can only do so much. Do you seriously think we could of developed Hudon, Scherbak, DLR, Beaulieu, Tinordi, etc into better hockey players?

Maybe DeLaRose out of that whole bunch.

Definitely NOT Scherbak! Nor Tinordi!

 

[Tuggy]

Wow I would have taken Fabbri for DLR but its MB...

Another small, injury prone player that can't score...yay!

 

[Habs Halifax]

Maybe DeLaRose out of that whole bunch.

Definitely NOT Scherbak! Nor Tinordi!

I liked DLR game in our bottom 6 or 4th line. Not a huge loss but picking Peca over him? Bone head move and I said that back when too! It would of been nice to see what DLR could do if our AHL team had better talent in his time with us. Don't think he gets better than a 3C in the end though and that's pushing it. Some are going to say I overrate prospects now though

 

[DangerDave]

You have a problem with me talking about my opinion? That's your problem. I'm not jumping on your back about yours so relax with your BS narrative and personal attack. You need to learn to drop that.

Development is a real thing. I agree. Where we don't agree is it's mostly on the player and the team can only do so much. Do you seriously think we could of developed Hudon, Scherbak, DLR, Beaulieu, Tinordi, etc into better hockey players?

I honestly think we could have. Maybe not Hudon.

Tinordi had physical bottom pair dman written all over him. He had issues with his skating and maybe defensive IQ. Sly was focussed on turning him into an enforcer and he suffered for it.

Scherbak was never going to be good defensively.l yet he was always deployed in a grinder role.

Beaulieu came in here and showed immense skill. We had a toxic environment/coach and that really hurt. No reason a guy like with that skill set couldn't be developed into a second pair guy.

DLR needed to develop his offense. He should have been in the minors with offensive wingers

 

[Frank Drebin]

Just a reminder:

Nothing teams do ever has an impact on a player. What the player is and will be is entirely on the player. What you see now is exactly what would happen regardless which league, coach or usage he would have had. Development simply doesnt exist. Everyone perfectly achieves their potential, always.

I just want to have a prospect pool with enough depth and talent that we don't have to worry that we didn't polish turds vigorously enough to turn them into 4th line players and bottom pairing defensemen.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I honestly think we could have. Maybe not Hudon.

Tinordi had physical bottom pair dman written all over him. He had issues with his skating and maybe defensive IQ. Sly was focussed on turning him into an enforcer and he suffered for it.

Scherbak was never going to be good defensively.l yet he was always deployed in a grinder role.

Beaulieu came in here and showed immense skill. We had a toxic environment/coach and that really hurt. No reason a guy like with that skill set couldn't be developed into a second pair guy.

DLR needed to develop his offense. He should have been in the minors with offensive wingers

Not me. I think you can mess with development but what does it mean? It prolongs things. I think a lot has to do with work ethic and the hunger to improve. A Weber quote... "He will get what he puts into it if he works hard at it".

There is an impact with what a team can do but it's limited to some degree. I firmly believe the hunger to improve is with the player. DLR was never going to be an offensive player even if we had the best development possible for him.

 

[habsfan891]

Screwed up how? Explain? Would he be a better player today if we didn't have him bounced from AHL to NHL so much? I liked DLR and I was annoyed we picked Peca over him and put him on waivers.

Another question... if we didn't play him 33 games as a 19 year old would he of not had to clear waivers last season?

I believe he would have been a better player had they allowed him to grow and improve his game in the Ahl as for your waiver question im not familiar enough with the rulebook to answer that my apologies

 

[DangerDave]

Not me. I think you can mess with development but what does it mean? It prolongs things. I think a lot has to do with work ethic and the hunger to improve. A Weber quote... "He will get what he puts into it if he works hard at it".

There is an impact with what a team can do but it's limited to some degree. I firmly believe the hunger to improve is with the player. DLR was never going to be an offensive player even if we had the best development possible for him.

Sure but I wasn't asking DLR to be an offensive player. Still doesn't mean he couldn't improve there.

Theirs no way you can disagree with me on McCarron and Tinordi's development being botched. Sly asking them to become enforcers is just stupid.

Maybe Beaulieu and Galchenyuk become something if they are led in the right direction. I firmly believe MT was toxic and it was part of the reason they started putting partying on the forefront and putting hockey on the backburner

 

[HBDay]

No, it's my opinion. Development is mostly on the player's hunger to improve and work hard. All a team can do is have good coaching and a positive environment.

Nothing more we could of done to develop players like Hudon, DLR, Scherbak, Beaulieu, Tinordi, etc. Maybe a better AHL team would help but how much? Not as much as you think

If you put Dale Earnhardt Jr. in the top six, he'll score. Player doesn't matter it's all coach.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Sure but I wasn't asking DLR to be an offensive player. Still doesn't mean he couldn't improve there.

Theirs no way you can disagree with me on McCarron and Tinordi's development being botched. Sly asking them to become enforcers is just stupid.

Maybe Beaulieu and Galchenyuk become something if they are led in the right direction. I firmly believe MT was toxic and it was part of the reason they started putting partying on the forefront and putting hockey on the backburner

Maybe guys like McCarron and Tinordi become depth NHL players if they had better development and a winning environment. But were not developing them any more than that. That's my point.

That AHL depth was horrible for a long time! Lots of problems and the coach was only one problem

With Beaulieu and Galchenyuk, you can't teach IQ. They are who they are

 

[Archijerej]

Just a reminder:

Nothing teams do ever has an impact on a player. What the player is and will be is entirely on the player. What you see now is exactly what would happen regardless which league, coach or usage he would have had. Development simply doesnt exist. Everyone perfectly achieves their potential, always.

Naaah. Everyone knows a player can display a hockey sense of a monkey, make the same mistakes over and over again, not improve his skating, strength and conditioning during several off-seasons, display a piss poor work ethic and he'd still turn out fine if only you'd grant him the mythical "top 6 minutes", "proper linemates" and be nice to him, because, you know, guy's got feelings. Now, that's proper development!

 

[DAChampion]

If you put Dale Earnhardt Jr. in the top six, he'll score. Player doesn't matter it's all coach.

It's neither all coach nor all player.

 

[Tighthead]

I agree with this, but I find Guy Boucher to be a terrible coach. Most of the time I find myself agreeing with him when he speaks, but I don't find his words match his actions.

He says you need to adapt and play to your strengths, but he employs the same anti-hockey system everywhere he goes. I know you weren't praising Boucher necessarily, but I just thought I'd throw that out there. I wouldn't want him anywhere near my bench. I'm not a CJ fan, but I'd take him over GB any day of the week.

I think GB is a very smart guy but does best in a supportive position, not HC. He might even do well in AHL as a HC if you gave him a development mandate.

He is a very nice guy but I think the Ottawa job was a bad fit for him. I do agree with your overall assessment.

 

[HBDay]

It's neither all coach nor all player.

Post was tongue in cheek, we all know this to be true, I guess the difference in my thinking compared to some of the group think is that in my opinion, development is 75% player 25% external factors such as coach etc.
Beaulieu, galchenyuk etc were never going to be excellent players even if claude could press right trigger and control them with an Xbox remote.

 

[Tighthead]

Plenty of coaches are conservative and play the vet over the rookie because they feel it's safer, but it's never safe to play a lesser player.

I have said it before but as conservative as Bill Parcells was, he wasn't going to let some marginal vet stand in the way of a talented young player who needed to get on the field. Football is a little different as players have a much shorter career.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Post was tongue in cheek, we all know this to be true, I guess the difference in my thinking compared to some of the group think is that in my opinion, development is 75% player 25% external factors such as coach etc.
Beaulieu, galchenyuk etc were never going to be excellent players even if claude could press right trigger and control them with an Xbox remote.

75/25 split is close to what I think too. The team can only do so much. The problem on our Habs boards is the draft and development talk has gone on for years and people remember the dark years so much where I think it's overblown. We didn't have much to develop cause we only had 8 top 100 picks from 08-11 and that had a ripple effect.

Horrible AHL depth and a bad coach and some think we could of developed some of those assets into something more valuable. Yeah sure, maybe a guy like Tinordi turns into Pateryn? Wait, didn't we develop Pateryn? How could we develop Pateryn and not Tinordi? Both started in the AHL in 12/13

 

[Lshap]

I just want to have a prospect pool with enough depth and talent that we don't have to worry that we didn't polish turds vigorously enough to turn them into 4th line players and bottom pairing defensemen.

"Vigorous turd polishing" is perfect. It sums up our previous decade of draft picks. My only regret is that our org didn't polish most of our picks enough to trade them while they had value. Won't go through the long list of our 1st and 2nd round busts, but de la Rose is a poster boy for the many prospects who projected much better than they ever performed.