Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 7)

[Catanddogguitarrr]

In the case of Galchenyuk, it's not that he hasn't learned, it's that he's gotten worse.

I find the best year of Galchenyuk as the first one. He downgraded his play as years were getting, if I compare to his first year.

 

[DAChampion]

Paccioretty had 4-5 seasons of 30 goals or more, whitch is something more than any of our actual forwards. Today the production of goals is spread on many forwards but in the "Paccio years" he was disproportionate important. Try to make an pourcentage of passes Paccio received to score his goals from each winger, center and d combined. Who gave him most of the passes to score in each pourcentage?

People did this exercise at the time and there was simply no evidence to support the notion that Desharnais helped Pacioretty.

And even if it did, it wouldn't excuse Desharnais being awful at defense.

I find the best year of Galchenyuk as the first one. He downgraded his play as years were getting, if I compare to his first year.

 

[Andrei79]

He also hasn’t learned squat - has zero clue about positioning and playing systems, how many coaches have tried to team him. This excuse making is absurd

If you have a refractory player(s), one way to coerce them into learning is to have consequences. Keeping them in the NHL making millions isn't a consequence.

Leaving them down in the AHL for years riding buses and making 75K is.

Even Ribeiro eventually made strides that way and he was brutal defensively at 20.

 

[DAChampion]

If you have a refractory player(s), one way to coerce them into learning is to have consequences. Keeping them in the NHL making millions isn't a consequence.

Leaving them down in the AHL for years riding buses and making 75K is.

Even Ribeiro eventually made strides that way and he was brutal defensively at 20.

IMO, Galchenyuk should have not been on the team in 2013, which I write at the time. However, in 2014 he would have been too good for the OHL, and not eligible for the AHL.

 

[ZUKI]

Poor guy. Only having 14 top 60 picks in 6 years must be terrible. Especially when one was a 3rd overall pick that he failed miserably on. It's also against the law to get some star players outside the top 2 rounds even though every stanley cup winner has done so. I actually feel bad for him. If we ever criticize Timmins again you can always remind me about 2007 because he's done f*ck all besides that year. Hope he can get an 8 year extension because of that year alone.

???
" was a 3rd overall pick that he failed miserably on " what the hell are you saying here ? Galchenyuk is still the second best points producer of his year draft and put a 30 goals season . He wasn't a fail but a good complimentary player until he started a night life that didn't fit with the life of an athlete .
Now, the last 2 seasons, Timmins got a lot of selections but hey, it's TOO SOON to see how those players will turn but some of them look really good right now .

 

[ZUKI]

Don't think you'll find many people saying otherwise. Heck even if he drafted Drouin with that pick it would have been a great pick. Gallagher was also a great pick. The list ends after those two though.

It's such a sad thing that only one of his last 2 drafts selections have played in the NHL , but now it's too late, because these 18-19 years old kid didn't prove anything in the NHL so we can consider them as " Busts "

 

[Lebowski]

???
" was a 3rd overall pick that he failed miserably on " what the hell are you saying here ? Galchenyuk is still the second best points producer of his year draft and put a 30 goals season . He wasn't a fail but a good complimentary player until he started a night life that didn't fit with the life of an athlete .
Now, the last 2 seasons, Timmins got a lot of selections but hey, it's TOO SOON to see how those players will turn but some of them look really good right now .

Galchenyuk seems like a good example of poor development as opposed to poor drafting.

He had talent and he had a few decent seasons with us. But throughout his entire career with us, it's as if the coaching staff wanted to make it as difficult as possible for him to develop into the player he was originally projected to become.

I think confidence is key, especially early in a player's career. I think it can go off the rails quickly if the player isn't being nurtured in an environment that promotes the development of his offensive skills, especially when the guy is projected to be your next 1st line center.

That's why I wanted Kotkaniemi to spend the extra season in Finland and to be sent to Laval this season.

 

[ZUKI]

Or the player simply lacks intellectual capacity to learn. Galchenyuk’s playing for his NHL career, let’s see how long this lasts

capacity to learn and effort to do it . You can also add the very bad influence of his father always around him - even with tweets between periods - to told him how to play

 

[ZUKI]

Galchenyuk seems like a good example of poor development as opposed to poor drafting.

He had talent and he had a few decent seasons with us. But throughout his entire career with us, it's as if the coaching staff wanted to make it as difficult as possible for him to develop into the player he was originally projected to become.

I think confidence is key, especially early in a player's career. I think it can go off the rails quickly if the player isn't being nurtured in an environment that promotes the development of his offensive skills, especially when the guy is projected to be your next 1st line center.

That's why I wanted Kotkaniemi to spend the extra season in Finland and to be sent to Laval this season.

i agree that development has been a big problem with the Habs and Lefevbre . That said, i don't believe that it was that bad with Galchenyuk who managed to score 30 goals once . After all the things we have read about his life outside the ice and about the bad influence of his father , i don't understand that so much fans continue to blame the team about how he turned

 

[Lebowski]

i agree that development has been a big problem with the Habs and Lefevbre . That said, i don't believe that it was that bad with Galchenyuk who managed to score 30 goals once . After all the things we have read about his life outside the ice and about the bad influence of his father , i don't understand that so much fans continue to blame the team about how he turned

I think the organization has a role in coaching a player "outside of the rink" when they bring teenagers in a city like Montréal.

 

[Deebs]

I think the organization has a role in coaching a player "outside of the rink" when they bring teenagers in a city like Montréal.

They do for sure, however Montreal, these days, is no different than other major markets in terms of off ice distractions

 

[yianik]

I think the organization has a role in coaching a player "outside of the rink" when they bring teenagers in a city like Montréal.

Wasnt that Breezers job ? To help young guys adjust to big city and big money ? And stay the course ?

 

[Whitesnake]

@Whitesnake, just a curious question.
As I recall, when I joined these boards som 10 years ago you were one of the posters that opened my eyes to Timmins, calling him one of the better scouts in the league and kind of an un-sung hero within the Hab's management?
When and how did that change?

Just a curious question.

People know how to change my mind.....not going to stay in that thread that much longer...but I thought this question was worth responding to and a great resume of my point of view.

First....Key words....10 years ago.

Then what changed?

• He regressed. How do I know that? I proved it by making an analysis that around he gave 20% less players to the team of guys that either were never good enough to make it to the AHL or weren't good enough to be kept around early in the AHL.
• Whether it's his idea, partially his idea, or not his idea, he's still bought the NEEDS concept that is one of the most stupidest way to draft ever. He made an already crapshoot of a draft, a super crapshoot.
• His inability to find a real centerman in all those years. At one point, you do have to give the guy the benefit of the doubt...maybe the 2009 draft where they adeed tons of C's will do the job. Maybe Galchy is a real C. And so on. Yet, end result, no C's. And I'm sorry, but getting Suzuki has NOTHING to do with his ability to find real C's. You draft mostlyl 18 years old. He had 1 more year to judge him IF he had something to say on the trade. So that's not him finding a C. It's him, like everybody else, realizing how good he was based on D+1.
• At one point, the REAL analysis we make out of a head scout is not the day of the draft....but 4-5 years later. While I was incredibly excited by the 2012 draft, and since what I think is not important, the end result is that the 2012 was a mess. That's Timmins bulletin. 2008, while he didn't have a lot ot work with, was a mess. 2009, 2010 except Gallagher, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 (even if Evans becomes a bototm 6 player), and 2015. 2016 will not be as good we think also. Though Sergachev is a great pick. Mete is expendable. And I'm predicting that the next 3 draft that we think are MUCH MUCH better will hold their share of dissapointments...but remains to be seen.

THAT is what changed. This is 2020. We have no success to show for. Since 2003, EVERYBODY in management and in the players were replaced. The ONLY guy that is still here is Timmins. ONLY guy INCLUDING ownership.Can somebody just realized that? Doesn't mean to pinpoint our demise entirely on Timmins 'cause he's the only guy surviving here....but to at least just acknowledge that it might be timefor a change???

 

[covfefe]

They do for sure, however Montreal, these days, is no different than other major markets in terms of off ice distractions

Can't say I agree with that. Montreal has a unique combination of things that make off-ice extracurriculars quite a bit more explosive than other cities.

There are plenty of boring locales in the league - we aren't one of them. We are one of the the foremost party destinations in NA along with places like Vegas, LA, NYC, Miami, and Nashville (it's nuts there, I'd recommend a trip to anyone)

Difference with those cities is that they are chalk full of bigger celebrities, and guys can skate by in relative anonymity if they are in that scene. Not so much in Montreal, or Toronto.

Now, it's up to the players to navigate those waters on their own - I'm not absolving Galchenyuk of any guilt here. But as someone who spent years 18-21 in Montreal, I can assure you, it's a particularly charged atmosphere if you are ever looking to have a good time. There are places to do that in every city, but they aren't as prevalent and in your face in Vancouver, or Calgary, St. Louis, Columbus, the Twin Cities, Buffalo, Raleigh, Denver, Pittsburgh, etc...

 

[Whitesnake]

Paccioretty had 4-5 seasons of 30 goals or more, whitch is something more than any of our actual forwards. Today the production of goals is spread on many forwards but in the "Paccio years" he was disproportionate important. Try to make an pourcentage of passes Paccio received to score his goals from each winger, center and d combined. Who gave him most of the passes to score in each pourcentage?

I remember people telling me that the number of goals Pacioretty scored was irrelevant 'cause if DD was able to get him to score 37 or 39 goals, well can you imagine what he'd be able to score with real centermen on a better team.

Well Pacioretty is about to have the best season of his career. And as far as goals are concerned, while I'm not a fan of trends, well if the trend continues...Pacioretty is about to have....37 goals. What changed is that true that he'd surely have more points with an actual center that could actually score more...'cause that's actually what is Pacioretty big improvement. His assists. Yet...does it mean that he has more assists because of his centerman scoring? Or because of a guy named Mark Stone? So something tells me that as much as DD was a mediocre overall centerman....he still was able to get the best out of Patch in the scoring department.

 

[The Great Weal]

I remember people telling me that the number of goals Pacioretty scored was irrelevant 'cause if DD was able to get him to score 37 or 39 goals, well can you imagine what he'd be able to score with real centermen on a better team.

Well Pacioretty is about to have the best season of his career. And as far as goals are concerned, while I'm not a fan of trends, well if the trend continues...Pacioretty is about to have....37 goals. What changed is that true that he'd surely have more points with an actual center that could actually score more...'cause that's actually what is Pacioretty big improvement. His assists. Yet...does it mean that he has more assists because of his centerman scoring? Or because of a guy named Mark Stone? So something tells me that as much as DD was a mediocre overall centerman....he still was able to get the best out of Patch in the scoring department.

Not to mention that Pacioretty sucked before Mark Stone came

 

[Andrei79]

I remember people telling me that the number of goals Pacioretty scored was irrelevant 'cause if DD was able to get him to score 37 or 39 goals, well can you imagine what he'd be able to score with real centermen on a better team.

Well Pacioretty is about to have the best season of his career. And as far as goals are concerned, while I'm not a fan of trends, well if the trend continues...Pacioretty is about to have....37 goals. What changed is that true that he'd surely have more points with an actual center that could actually score more...'cause that's actually what is Pacioretty big improvement. His assists. Yet...does it mean that he has more assists because of his centerman scoring? Or because of a guy named Mark Stone? So something tells me that as much as DD was a mediocre overall centerman....he still was able to get the best out of Patch in the scoring department.

That's exactly it though.

DD absolutely wasn't able to get the most out of him if he's going for similar numbers now, in his 30s and in a higher scoring league, that he did when he was in his prime years.

 

[DAChampion]

I remember people telling me that the number of goals Pacioretty scored was irrelevant 'cause if DD was able to get him to score 37 or 39 goals, well can you imagine what he'd be able to score with real centermen on a better team.

Well Pacioretty is about to have the best season of his career. And as far as goals are concerned, while I'm not a fan of trends, well if the trend continues...Pacioretty is about to have....37 goals. What changed is that true that he'd surely have more points with an actual center that could actually score more...'cause that's actually what is Pacioretty big improvement. His assists. Yet...does it mean that he has more assists because of his centerman scoring? Or because of a guy named Mark Stone? So something tells me that as much as DD was a mediocre overall centerman....he still was able to get the best out of Patch in the scoring department.

Pacioretty doesn't just have better production now. He's doing so without Subban and Markov (not just DD) feeding him passes, and more convincingly, he's doing so at age 31. The peak of goal scoring aptitude is often assumed to be much younger than 31. It's possible that Pacioretty is an exception, but it's more likely that he isn't.

ETA: Is his deployment similar to what it was in Montreal?

 

[Whitesnake]

That's exactly it though.

DD absolutely wasn't able to get the most out of him if he's going for similar numbers now, in his 30s and in a higher scoring league, that he did when he was in his prime years.

In a higher scoring league? Go the NHL.com, and do 2011-2012 to today as far as Goals For per team. Desharnais feeded Patch from 11-12 to 15-16. Well out of the best teams in Goals for during all those years....the top 20 is composed of 17 teams past that DD era. Only the Pens of 11-12, Stars of 15-16 and Ducks of 13-14 are on that list. Everybody else is after DD career in Montreal. Seems to me that the highest scoring eras are right now....

 

[Whitesnake]

Pacioretty doesn't just have better production now. He's doing so without Subban and Markov (not just DD) feeding him passes, and more convincingly, he's doing so at age 31. The peak of goal scoring aptitude is often assumed to be much younger than 31. It's possible that Pacioretty is an exception, but it's more likely that he isn't.

ETA: Is his deployment similar to what it was in Montreal?

Last year, without Stone, some was starting to see that we were witnessing Pacioretty's descend to becoming an average player.

 

[The Great Weal]

Last year, without Stone, some was starting to see that we were witnessing Pacioretty's descend to becoming an average player.

Also I'd argue that Radulov had a HUGE impact for Pacioretty in his last 67 point season. Not really a coincidence that he fell off a cliff after that and started looking excellent once paired with one of the best wingers in the game in Mark Stone.

 

[Whitesnake]

That's exactly it though.

DD absolutely wasn't able to get the most out of him if he's going for similar numbers now, in his 30s and in a higher scoring league, that he did when he was in his prime years.

And as far as prime vs 31 years old....well I guess we could do the exercice with quite a few guys....I have Pavelski in mind. A similar 35-40 goals scorer. What is prime for a forward? 25 years old? Well Pavelski at 31 had 38 goals. While from 24 to 28, his best season was 31 goals. His best scoring seasons were at the age of 29, then at 31 and 34. Who else?

Patrick Kane...he did have a great season at 26 years old...but his best overall season came at...29 years old.

So what is prime. And is it for everybody?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I remember people telling me that the number of goals Pacioretty scored was irrelevant 'cause if DD was able to get him to score 37 or 39 goals, well can you imagine what he'd be able to score with real centermen on a better team.

Well Pacioretty is about to have the best season of his career. And as far as goals are concerned, while I'm not a fan of trends, well if the trend continues...Pacioretty is about to have....37 goals. What changed is that true that he'd surely have more points with an actual center that could actually score more...'cause that's actually what is Pacioretty big improvement. His assists. Yet...does it mean that he has more assists because of his centerman scoring? Or because of a guy named Mark Stone? So something tells me that as much as DD was a mediocre overall centerman....he still was able to get the best out of Patch in the scoring department.

You don't think Max would've scored more if he had a better center than DD?

Seriously?

 

[Whitesnake]

You don't think Max would've scored more if he had a better center than DD?

Seriously?

Where's the proof? DD ONLY job was to make Pacioretty scored. I think he thought there was no other wingers to pass on. While a more complete team would have probably see their scoring be more diverse?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Where's the proof? DD ONLY job was to make Pacioretty scored. I think he thought there was no other wingers to pass on. While a more complete team would have probably see their scoring be more diverse?

Proof? You need me to prove to you that DD should've been on the 4th line?

Come on man.

Max was a 40 goal guy with a shitty center. What proof do you need that he'd score more with a better one? I mean, it's common sense.