Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 7)

[Whitesnake]

Guess where he developed...

If your point is that chances are players develop better in a winning environment surrounded by top players in the league? Yeah, I agree. It helps a whole lot. Blame Bergie for not having build a great team all around. Blame Timmins for not having drafted good enough players to even reach the AHL.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Well the facts suggest that despite not having been given the No1 C at 18 years old right from the start, he did show continuous developoment offensively for quite a few seasons till he reached the end of what he could do. That no matter how you want to slice it, he was not the biggest worker. And had problems off the ice. FActa are also that he was not that great of a passer and a terrible defensive player. Was he better, worst, or whatever that what we had. It's irrelevant. Remove DD of the picture, and he WOULD NOT have learned to play defensively. And would have been moved to the wings. FActs are also that once traded, he couldn't get his career going again. It does happen quite often that players might struggle in some teams, and succeed elsewhere 'cause they are given the chance to shine. He didn't. Even with a centerman like Malkin. Those are pretty much the facts.

I would never say that he'd become Bergeron and I've been explicit about that. He would've been a one way player... no problem with that.

But we had a one way player there anyway. We went out of our way to hold him back. MT was brutal with him and many others.

 

[Andrei79]

Guess where he developed...

I remember thinking he was no where near ready when they kept him up at 18. I mean, were they blind ?

Sometimes I wonder what the motivations are behind those moves.

 

[The Great Weal]

Low picks. Many years without a 2nd... again, welcome to three pages ago.

Poor guy. Only having 14 top 60 picks in 6 years must be terrible. Especially when one was a 3rd overall pick that he failed miserably on. It's also against the law to get some star players outside the top 2 rounds even though every stanley cup winner has done so. I actually feel bad for him. If we ever criticize Timmins again you can always remind me about 2007 because he's done f*** all besides that year. Hope he can get an 8 year extension because of that year alone.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If your point is that chances are players develop better in a winning environment surrounded by top players in the league? Yeah, I agree. It helps a whole lot. Blame Bergie for not having build a great team all around. Blame Timmins for not having drafted good enough players to even reach the AHL.

That wasn't my point, but it's true.

My point was that he wasn't stuck with Therrien or SL the way these other players were.

Usually, I'll criticize coaches on a case by case basis. Julien with KK is a good example. Hate what he's done with him and judging by KK's quotes he feels that he got the shaft as well. It's like he shat in his cornflakes or something.

But Suzuki has done well under Julien. So I won't write off Julien as he's had some success and at least his systems are good. But with MT he was terrible on every level. Didn't teach anything, forced stupid systems, terrible roster mgmt, seemed to have personal grudges and was disastrous for the dressing room. He's the worst thing that's happened to this franchise since the Roy trade - unless you want to blame MB who hired him.

 

[The Great Weal]

Sergachev is doing real, real well. That was a great pick.

Don't think you'll find many people saying otherwise. Heck even if he drafted Drouin with that pick it would have been a great pick. Gallagher was also a great pick. The list ends after those two though.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Poor guy. Only having 14 top 60 picks in 6 years must be terrible. Especially when one was a 3rd overall pick that he failed miserably on. It's also against the law to get some star players outside the top 2 rounds even though every stanley cup winner has done so. I actually feel bad for him. If we ever criticize Timmins again you can always remind me about 2007 because he's done f*ck all besides that year. Hope he can get an 8 year extension because of that year alone.

Strong argument. I'll have to think long and hard how to reply to it...

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Oh please, everyone saw him as a flawed player and Arizona fans said that he sucked too. Guy couldn't even produce with Malkin. He's awful. Many people get injured, doesn't mean that they ALWAYS get their career ruined because of it.

Bobby Clarke had a prolific career while have to deal with diabetes in the 70's. The needles of the '70s, not the modern treatment. Top ten player for a decade.
Bobby Orr had how many knee injuries? He played on one knee for his last 4 years and was still productive.

 

[Whitesnake]

I would never say that he'd become Bergeron and I've been explicit about that. He would've been a one way player... no problem with that.

But we had a one way player there anyway. We went out of our way to hold him back. MT was brutal with him and many others.

Yet again....to whom would you compare him as far as any NO1 C in the league. Don't become Bergeron. There's only 1. But how about the others? At his best in our fantasy world, where does he rank amongst top C's? You talk about Bergeron, he would not have been able to hold Krejci's jockstrap. So where would he be?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I remember thinking he was no where near ready when they kept him up at 18. I mean, were they blind ?

Sometimes I wonder what the motivations are behind those moves.

Seems like we have had a lot of 18 year olds in the NHL over the years. Felt it was okay for Chuck and KK. But KK clearly got crushed by CJ at the end of last year and struggled all season with us. If we were going to do that, should've just sent him down.

And that's another point I don't understand with our team: If we didn't have faith in Chuck why didn't we just trade him for a veteran number one to a rebuilding team? Might as well have just done that because at least it would've been a replacement for DD and given us strength up the middle.

Instead we just held him back... it's stupid.

 

[The Great Weal]

Strong argument. I'll have to think long and hard how to reply to it...

Wouldn't be surprised that you don't have an answer. 1st rounder in every year since 2008 but after this year I doubt any of them will be in the NHL. 2 impact players since 2008 too. Keep telling me about 2007 though, it's the only major success besides drafting Price that Timmins has since 2003.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yet again....to whom would you compare him as far as any NO1 C in the league. Don't become Bergeron. There's only 1. But how about the others? At his best in our fantasy world, where does he rank amongst top C's? You talk about Bergeron, he would not have been able to hold Krejci's jockstrap. So where would he be?

I think we should've played him as our number one starting in 13-14. At that point the job was open. DD started with 1 in 20 or something crazy. And we gave him a shot later that year (I think it was that season) and he went a point per game and the whole team's offense went up. Then he was inexplicably moved back.

And it was like that all the time for him. We move him up for a bit, he does well and then we'd move him down again. That f***s you up.

I think he would've been a one way guy. Never a defensive gem but a consistent scoring threat. Seguin/Tavares but not as offensively effective.

 

[Whitesnake]

That wasn't my point, but it's true.

My point was that he wasn't stuck with Therrien or SL the way these other players were.

Usually, I'll criticize coaches on a case by case basis. Julien with KK is a good example. Hate what he's done with him and judging by KK's quotes he feels that he got the shaft as well. It's like he shat in his cornflakes or something.

But Suzuki has done well under Julien. So I won't write off Julien as he's had some success and at least his systems are good. But with MT he was terrible on every level. Didn't teach anything, forced stupid systems, terrible roster mgmt, seemed to have personal grudges and was disastrous for the dressing room. He's the worst thing that's happened to this franchise since the Roy trade - unless you want to blame MB who hired him.

So you won't criticze Julien because Suzuki is doing well....but why wouldn't you remember Gallagher, PK and Pacioretty success under Therrien?

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Strong argument. I'll have to think long and hard how to reply to it...

Don't try too hard to respond to that. It's already humiliating, I feel sorry for you.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So you won't criticze Julien because Suzuki is doing well....but why wouldn't you remember Gallagher, PK and Pacioretty success under Therrien?

The only guy who actually developed well under Therrien was Gallagher. And no, I don't credit MT for him because he'd played that way his entire life. Do you think MT taught him anything? Really?

Those other players had developed under other coaches. They hit their prime under MT. It's not the same thing.

 

[Whitesnake]

I think we should've played him as our number one starting in 13-14. At that point the job was open. DD started with 1 in 20 or something crazy. And we gave him a shot later that year (I think it was that season) and he went a point per game and the whole team's offense went up. Then he was inexplicably moved back.

And it was like that all the time for him. We move him up for a bit, he does well and then we'd move him down again. That f*cks you up.

Not saying that it was great for Therrien to do that. I Keep repeating at that time that while he was saying that DD needed shootouts to get his confidence going because he was not scoring, that he was laughing at reporters suggesting Eller should get shootouts to get his confidence going.....which Therrien responded, how the f*** should I send him since he's not scoring. THAT determined the true bias for DD and against Eller.

If anything, I don't agree with you on Galchy....but we were screwed of a good player in Eller because of Therrien. This kid should still be with us as our 3rd line C.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Don't try too hard to respond to that. It's already humiliating, I feel sorry for you.

I'll respond to serious arguments and serious posters. If I think a poster is wasting my time, I'll dismiss them. If I think they are consistently wasting my time, I stop replying to them altogether.

People are free to make the arguments they wish. And people are also free to choose which posts and posters to spend time responding to. I don't think it's unfair to do that. Disagreement is all good, if it didn't exist we wouldn't be here, but it has to be a productive conversation to hold my interest.

 

[Whitesnake]

The only guy who actually developed well under Therrien was Gallagher. And no, I don't credit MT for him because he'd played that way his entire life. Do you think MT taught him anything? Really?

Those other players had developed under other coaches. They hit their prime under MT. It's not the same thing.

Who talks about teaching? Aren't we talking about giving confidence to kids? Who cares if Gally played like that all year long. If he gets a coach who doesn't believe that this little guy can do his think at the NHL level, maybe he doesn'T get the confidence he needs to do the same thing. But why wouldn't you credit Therrien for Pacioretty and Subban? Didn't Pacioretty receive the confidence he needs to be the scorer in this league while he was more seen as a passer in lower leagues? Didn't PK get the confidence to be used in all situations while he was known for some as a dfensive liability?

Aren't we talking about confidence here and not screwing up development? How that turned out to be about teaching?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Not saying that it was great for Therrien to do that. I Keep repeating at that time that while he was saying that DD needed shootouts to get his confidence going because he was not scoring, that he was laughing at reporters suggesting Eller should get shootouts to get his confidence going.....which Therrien responded, how the f*ck should I send him since he's not scoring. THAT determined the true bias for DD and against Eller.

If anything, I don't agree with you on Galchy....but we were screwed of a good player in Eller because of Therrien. This kid should still be with us as our 3rd line C.

Nobody is going to convince me that Chuck couldn't at least have been a good scoring center. We got to see it when he was put there. Problem is that he wasn't put there often or for long stretches. To me, that's how you ruin a player or at least stunt him.

 

[Whitesnake]

Hey 2 assists tonight for Galchy. Maybe he's not totally screwed up just yet....

Okay just saw 1 of his passes...it just hit his skate without him knowing...but hey 1 assist is 1 assist...lol.
He does play hard though so far in Minny. Maybe 4th team is a charm....

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Who talks about teaching? Aren't we talking about giving confidence to kids? Who cares if Gally played like that all year long. If he gets a coach who doesn't believe that this little guy can do his think at the NHL level, maybe he doesn'T get the confidence he needs to do the same thing. But why wouldn't you credit Therrien for Pacioretty and Subban? Didn't Pacioretty receive the confidence he needs to be the scorer in this league while he was more seen as a passer in lower leagues? Didn't PK get the confidence to be used in all situations while he was known for some as a dfensive liability?

Aren't we talking about confidence here and not screwing up development? How that turned out to be about teaching?

A coach is a whole lot of things: strategist, mentor, teacher, drill sargeant... some coaches have some properties more than others.

What did MT offer us? What was he good at besides yelling at players, throwing them under the bus and benching them for mistakes? He was a failure on every level.

Gallagher plays a game that ANY coach will love. The best thing that I can say about MT is that he gave the guy a chance to play. Too bad he didn't do that more for others as well. If he had we would've been a better team.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Are you suggesting we made the PO because of him?

I sure hope not.

DD will never been seen as a very good center but he was better than Galcheyuk and that's says a lot on Galchy as he was a bust. He was a drud addick and DD wasn't. It's somehow unfair but that clearly explain why coach MT chose DD over him. And who in between the two listened to the game pattern? Surely not AG.

And who best winger Paccioretty was getting most of his passes? And which center Paccio was asking to the coach?

 

[Whitesnake]

A coach is a whole lot of things: strategist, mentor, teacher, drill sargeant... some coaches have some properties more than others.

What did MT offer us? What was he good at besides yelling at players, throwing them under the bus and benching them for mistakes? He was a failure on every level.

Gallagher plays a game that ANY coach will love. The best thing that I can say about MT is that he gave the guy a chance to play. Too bad he didn't do that more for others as well. If he had we would've been a better team.

He did that for Gally. When Patch came back, he put him in a position to be an offensive player and not a 3rd liner. And did the same thing for PK. But he hated Eller. And wasn't fond of Chuck's game. Easy to blame him for Eller who proved once he was out of here that he was indeed a good player. Tougher to blame on Chuck who didn't prove it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

DD will never been seen as a very good center but he was better than Galcheyuk and that's says a lot on Galchy as he was a bust. He was a drud addick and DD wasn't. It's somehow unfair but that clearly explain why coach MT chose DD over him. And who in between the two listened to the game pattern? Surely not AG.

Even if that were true (and it isn't) it still makes sense to play the younger player with upside over a guy who should be on the 4th line. If we'd played Chuck as our number one in 13/14 he'd have been that much stronger the next year and the year after that...

How do you justify playing a midget 4th liner who goes his first 20 games with one point? It's inexcusable.

 

[Andrei79]

DD will never been seen as a very good center but he was better than Galcheyuk and that's says a lot on Galchy as he was a bust. He was a drud addick and DD wasn't. It's somehow unfair but that clearly explain why coach MT chose DD over him. And who in between the two listened to the game pattern? Surely not AG.

Are you sure you're talking about DD here ? I'll give you that he's not a drug addict, but you're describing a whole other player here.

His defensive efforts were disgusting. So we're his line changes. He was awful. I thank god every day he's not on the team anymore.