Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 7)

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Catanddogguitarrr

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Yeah we're going to compete with 37 year old Weber and 35 year old Price , you're dreaming.
Doubling down on Bergevin's original idea is probably the dumbest thing we can do.
The team is youthful and has solid pieces in the pipeline we certainly aren't tethered to our older veterans , so trade or let the old pieces grow old while providing mentorship.
Invest in the youth rebuild and since optimising the tank isn't a thing in Montreal , draft BPA available at the draft and attempt to acquire more Suzuki's from our assets.

This should be the plan , keep adding to our youth core by leveraging veterans , drafting well and solid buy low trades.
Invest in the youth rebuilt when your drafting general is Trevor Timmins?
You want another McCarron, Sherbak, Fisher, Tinordi, Leblanc, Chipchura, Urquart, Maxwell, Reway, Collberg, Beaulieu, Bozon, etc?
I prefer Kovalchuck at 40 yrs than any of those mentioned. Montreal Habs are not like Boston who drafted Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak, McAvoy, Carlo, etc.
Drafting well when Timmins is in control of drafting, lol !! By chance trades are possible so Mtl have drafted players from other teams like Suzuki, Tatar, Danault, Petry, Armia, Chiarot, Kulak, Domi and Kovalchuk.
 

CauZuki

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Invest in the youth rebuilt when your drafting general is Trevor Timmins?
You want another McCarron, Sherbak, Fisher, Tinordi, Leblanc, Chipchura, Urquart, Maxwell, Reway, Collberg, Beaulieu, Bozon, etc?
I prefer Kovalchuck at 40 yrs than any of those mentioned. Montreal Habs are not like Boston who drafted Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak, McAvoy, Carlo, etc.
Drafting well when Timmins is in control of drafting, lol !! By chance trades are possible so Mtl have drafted players from other teams like Suzuki, Tatar, Danault, Petry, Armia, Chiarot, Kulak, Domi and Kovalchuk.

Sergachev
Poehling
Kotkaniemi
Caufield

In the 1st round is not too bad , while also having:

Mete
Fleury
Romanov
Primeau

Heck even Juulsen was a fine pick , he looked great until his injury issues. I also like Evans a lot as a bottom round pick up. Our recent drafting isn't as problematic as some make it out , the development on the other hand is where we are questionable. We tend to rush players to the NHL , give them no room for mistakes and underestimate the impact of a hockey crazed city that is Montreal.
 
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Catanddogguitarrr

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Sergachev
Poehling
Kotkaniemi
Caufield

In the 1st round is not too bad , while also having:

Mete
Fleury
Romanov
Primeau

Heck even Juulsen was a fine pick , he looked great until his injury issues. I also like Evans a lot as a bottom round pick up. Our recent drafting isn't as problematic as some make it out , the development on the other hand is where we are questionable. We tend to rush players to the NHL , give them no room for mistakes and underestimate the impact of a hockey crazed city that is Montreal.
Juulsen didn't do enough to prove anything. He was inured so I say it's 50/50 in his case. Not a bad pick but not a future Lidstrom in his case.
Sergachev : fans in TB are not crazy about him. They like Hedman much more. Drouin is not a bust or a bad trade. He suffer from an injury this year after he started the season with nice results.
Poehling : wait a few years. He was promised to be a solid 2nd center and now he looks more like a possible 3rd center.
Kotkaniemi : wait another 2 years before claiming anything
Caufield : he is so small, you think he will have a real impact on the nhl level? Without a strong solid center I doubt he can be successful.

In the 1st round is not too bad , while also having:

Mete : smallish D who get pushed around like a wet rag. I will be happy the day Mtl will sign another D or when Romanov will come here.
Fleury : wait another 2 years before claiming anything
Romanov : will he come here next year or he will stay in khl? Are you 100% sure he will be that good?
Primeau : wait another 2 years before claiming anything.
 

montreal

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From 2012 to 2017 (Bergevin's era), that's 7 x 2nd round pick in 6 drafts.
From 2003 to 2017, Timmins had 13 x 2nd round pick in 14 drafts.

So why pity Timmins from not having 2nd round pick?

Overall he had as much 2nd round picks as any teams out there.....from 2012 to 2017, he had more 2nd round picks than most teams (And not including the last 2 years where he obviously had many)

Last year they traded a 2nd round pick for a 3rd round and 5th round pick and that pick turned out to be Fagemo who was the best point producer in this year's WJC......i think it's fair to say that it's not the lack of draft pick the problem but the ones making the pick.

take out '17 since it's just too soon yet to say, and my point was to show things before they clearly made a change of direction to load up on picks. No matter how you slice it, not having a 2nd round pick in 6 out of 8 years in a row is f***ing brutal and handicaps any scout. It just so happened the year he had 2nd round picks in that span, the drafts were weak years overall especially '12 which looks like one of the weakest drafts for the NHL since '99.

I'm not saying its all his fault, but like 97% his fault.

so MB, Lefebvre, the yo-yoing by the coaching staff (MT/Juilen), the players, they are 3% to blame but the guy with a proven track record vs a GM that had never been a GM and continues to repeat the same mistakes of rushing prospects to the NHL that aren't ready and a AHL head coach that had never been a head coach before but these guys are more creditable then someone that picked Price, Subban, Pac, Gallagher, Sergachev, Halak, Streit, etc...
 
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26Mats

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part 6 - Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 6)


Have fun people.....Habs are the best! In a world where Ryan O'Byrne, Matt D'Agostini, Sergei Kostitsyn, Maxim Lapierre, Ryan White and Yannick Weber are better than Patrice Bergeron and David Krejci.

Recrutes | NHL Draft Study 2003-16

For McCagg, Ryan O'Byrne is more significant than Brendan Gallagher.

basing an assessment of a scout on NHL games played is not using the right metric. Therefore the study is useless. I heard him on tsn690 and therefore decided to save myself time and not read his "analysis."
 

ottawa

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ahmedou

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Enough of those yada and blah. It's always the same narrative and story right here. Let's do an assessment (survey) on him, period. With some important objective questions. A to F as his grade.

So how it's going to be?
 
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Milhouse40

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take out '17 since it's just too soon yet to say, and my point was to show things before they clearly made a change of direction to load up on picks. No matter how you slice it, not having a 2nd round pick in 6 out of 8 years in a row is ****ing brutal and handicaps any scout. It just so happened the year he had 2nd round picks in that span, the drafts were weak years overall especially '12 which looks like one of the weakest drafts for the NHL since '99.

Timmins had 5 x 2nd round pick in those 6 years…. that's how i slice it.

Someone who never trade picks usually will end up with 6 x 2nd round pick….it's not like Timmins failed to have 2nd round picks during those years. You make it sounds like he had a lot less than anybody else which is not the case. Out of those 2nd round picks, Lehkonen is the only player that came out of it. You seems to forget that he had 3 2nd round pick in 2013 also.
 

calder candidate

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Chili

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part 6 - Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 6)


Have fun people.....Habs are the best! In a world where Ryan O'Byrne, Matt D'Agostini, Sergei Kostitsyn, Maxim Lapierre, Ryan White and Yannick Weber are better than Patrice Bergeron and David Krejci.

Recrutes | NHL Draft Study 2003-16

For McCagg, Ryan O'Byrne is more significant than Brendan Gallagher.
If I understood the analysis criteria, he included only the first two rounds?

What about the rest of the draft picks?

When I looked this up a while ago the only other head scout from 2003 still in that position around the league was Tim Burke in San Jose (ironically a former Habs draft pick).

Current NHLers drafted after the second round plus undrafted players:

Habs: Jaro Halak 9th, Yannick Weber 3rd, Brendan Gallagher 5th, Victor Mete 4th, Jake Evans 7th Undrafted: Charlie Lindgren (6 total)

Sharks: Joe Pavelski 7th, Thomas Greiss 3rd, Alex Stalock 4th, Nick Bonino 6th, Justin Braun 7th, Jason Demers 7th, Sean Kuraly 5th, Dylan DeMelo 6th, Joakim Ryan 7th, Kevin Labanc 6th, Undrafted: Aaron Dell, Radim Simek, Barclay Goodrow, Melker Karlsson, Matt Irwin, Ryan Carpenter, Joel Kellman (17 total)

Tempting to do the complete league analysis, I just wouldn't personally downplay the draft after the second round, some teams do find talent there.

Edit: Forgot Mete
 
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montreal

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Timmins had 5 x 2nd round pick in those 6 years…. that's how i slice it.

Someone who never trade picks usually will end up with 6 x 2nd round pick….it's not like Timmins failed to have 2nd round picks during those years. You make it sounds like he had a lot less than anybody else which is not the case. Out of those 2nd round picks, Lehkonen is the only player that came out of it. You seems to forget that he had 3 2nd round pick in 2013 also.

and still had no 2nd round picks in 6 years, that's a lot of time. It's not his fault the '12 draft was a shit year to finally have a 2nd rounder. Leks is one of the best players in the entire 2nd round and DLR is a decent 4th liner. So out of 8 years minus 6 with no picks he ends up with 2 NHLers and another 2nd round pick had enough value to get traded for Vanek which helped get us into the playoffs.

It's crazy to me to not even acknowledge that for 6 years he didn't have a 2nd round pick, it's just putting things in context, there's no harm in stating the fact. Yes he had extra 2nd round picks in '12 and '13 and those were shit years to have them. Look at the Leks thread, so many posters have been dumping on him yet one player in the entire 2nd round has more points then him last time I checked. So that's just good on Timmins there.
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
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Idk if I'm more surprised about that O'Byrne > Gallagher crap or at the fact you frequent this hacks website.

Why do you think I frequent this guy's website? I got that through twitter.
 

ZUKI

I hate the haters...
Oct 23, 2003
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part 6 - Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 6)


Have fun people.....Habs are the best! In a world where Ryan O'Byrne, Matt D'Agostini, Sergei Kostitsyn, Maxim Lapierre, Ryan White and Yannick Weber are better than Patrice Bergeron and David Krejci.

Recrutes | NHL Draft Study 2003-16

For McCagg, Ryan O'Byrne is more significant than Brendan Gallagher.
i have read the article and where do you see that O'Byrne/Gallagher stuff .

40 hours of work and all Timmins haters have to say is "not scientific " and they will continue to believe they have a clue about drafting :laugh:
 

DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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I remember back in 2008, a lot of people were saying that Oh Burned might become as good as Komisarek.

Then in 2009, it was pointed out by others that Komisarek sucks.
 

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,782
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It's really hard to evaluate Timmins given how catastrophic Lefebvre was, and it's too early to evaluate Bouchard.

If Jake Evans becomes a legitimate bottom six player, then Bouchard will achieve a better development record than Lefebvre.
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
89,202
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i have read the article and where do you see that O'Byrne/Gallagher stuff .

40 hours of work and all Timmins haters have to say is "not scientific " and they will continue to believe they have a clue about drafting :laugh:

So in your world....

games played = great scouting
number of hours worked = great research?

Wow....:laugh:

One day, you'Ll realize that McCagg is Timmins pal, and that the only thing McCAgg did was to find a way to make Timmins look good. I mean his first table is number of players that played 200 games / number of picks we had in the first 2 rounds. Why? Because....that's where most players are picked? Yeah, well 3rd round too no? So why did McCagg do t hat? Well because he just used 2 things we know...Timmins was pretty good in later rounds from 03-07 and we didn't have all of our 2nd rounders. So what's the equation I could use to show that? Well number of games played / number of top 60 picks.

Totally genius....that means NOTHING.

And the point about O'Byrne vs Gallagher since it totally escaped you, is that by solely putting the emphasis in games played, McCagg put on the same level O'Byrne, D'Agostini etc. with Gallagher. For him, they have the same value. Insane. Yet, when he counts the number of points, and the games played, he does use Gallagher. But when it's time to count the pick in itself...he doesn'T count it...he only counts top 60. Why? Just because we have to make Timmins look good. But in no way shape or form do we talk about importance of picks and value of players. It's all over the place for the sole purpose of making Timmins look better than he actually is. And the final proof of that was his final table...in response to people saying that lately it wasn't good enough, well he used 16-19 (which is obviously not what people are referring to) and comes back with games played. As if Victor Mete a proof that we are the best drafting team lately. 'Cause, you know, he played some games. It has obviously nothing to do with us being so weak that we had to use a 18-year old kid who was not ready.

McCagg uses that as if drafting was a game. And that whether you pick 10 hall of famers in 2003 and then 10 more in 2200 is still a great record. Drafting exists for an actual purpose. And even moreso in a cap salary world. You cannot be satisfied with having picked great players 12 years ago. It does NOT help the team. You need to be more consistent. And maybe suggest to your pal McCagg to substract 20 points for every period of 5 years that you can't have a draft like 2007 was.....Why 20 points? Just...because....I can make my own shit too....

Oh and please tell me why his first table talks about 200 games played...and his 2nd table talks about 300 games played. What's the logic there? I know, no logic, by the way....guys like Thomas Chabot is not included in that list with Ottawa. 'Cause you know....he hasn't played 200 or 300 games yet. So Ottawa cannot see that name be included in that fabulous 40-hour evaluation. lol
 
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