Speculation: Trading Up Part II: The Midnight Barkov

[start winnin]

Several people in here, yourself amongst them, arguing that fans should be content picking where we are. I'm actually attempting to deduce if you have any beliefs at all. You seem to enjoy arguing and throwing out words from 'Ye old fallacy book', yet, I can't seem to find much in the last 10 pages from you outside of "Stop being upset we're not getting the best player in the draft".

Beliefs? What do you mean beliefs? He's basically said that he's not going to piss and moan because Darcy wouldn't make an idiotic decision to throw away the farm for one player.

You type that as if it were an unreasonable thing to have been told.

It's ridiculous.

 

[Zip15]

Beliefs? What do you mean beliefs? He's basically said that he's not going to piss and moan because Darcy wouldn't make an idiotic decision to throw away the farm for one player.



It's ridiculous.

I've actually never argued that. My position is simple: I'm not going to piss and moan about teams unwilling to trade out of spots where they think they'll be drafting franchise players. It's so funny to see the value posters assign to those players and then they whine that the other teams won't forfeit their opportunity to draft those same guys.

 

[Paxon]

People can legitimately complain about Regier when another team trades up to #1 with an offer that Buffalo could've matched or beaten with similar/better assets. Until then, you can't complain when many teams would like to do the same thing but weren't able to...like in 95% of prevoius drafts (actually a team has NEVER traded up 7 spots to #1 or anything similar). If you want to blame Regier, then you can blame about 15-20 other GMs every draft for not doing the same thing even though they wanted to.

Yep, afaik the highest a team's ever jumped to #1 was with Forsberg (#6) and a lot for Lindros, albeit it after the draft. You can argue all day about that trade from perspectives with or without hindsight and with or without considering Lindros' injury history, but the bottom line is it wasn't a slam dunk move for Philly by any means. It's also a whole differently world in the NHL and nothing like that has been seen since. It's also not going to happen, period. It's time to accept that until proven otherwise.

 

[Afinogretzky]

Since I've been the target the last few hours, I guess I'll just explain where I was coming from from the very beginning.

I wanted Darcy to do whatever it took to go get MacKinnon. I'd probably offer a lot more than most would. I think having a bonafide #1C is as essential as a top QB in football. So if Darcy today told me, "yea, we've put many generous offers on the table, but Colorado isn't budging," fine. I can live with that. Why? Because I'm not a idiot, and I realize it takes two to tango.

However, after WEEKS of "WE'RE TRADING UP!!", "WE'RE GUNNA GO GET OUR GUY!!", "WE KNOW IT TAKES TOP TALENT TO WIN *mentions Crosby, Kane, Toews*" - today it was, "yeaaaaa we don't wanna sacrifice depth to move up," which induced an actual visceral reaction from my organs. Of course he won't make the bold move, because why the **** would he? This is Darcy Regier. Same dude who's been pulling the rug out from underneath us for almost 20 years.

EDIT: and for the record, I'd be thrilled with Barkov, Monahan, or Lindholm. At 8 unfortunately, I don't think we'll have a shot at any of them either.

 

[Deevo]

Lindholm plz

 

[start winnin]

Since I've been the target the last few hours, I guess I'll just explain where I was coming from from the very beginning.

I wanted Darcy to do whatever it took to go get MacKinnon. I'd probably offer a lot more than most would. I think having a bonafide #1C is as essential as a top QB in football. So if Darcy today told me, "yea, we've put many generous offers on the table, but Colorado isn't budging," fine. I can live with that. Why? Because I'm not a idiot, and I realize it takes two to tango.

However, after WEEKS of "WE'RE TRADING UP!!", "WE'RE GUNNA GO GET OUR GUY!!", "WE KNOW IT TAKES TOP TALENT TO WIN *mentions Crosby, Kane, Toews*" - today it was, "yeaaaaa we don't wanna sacrifice depth to move up," which induced an actual visceral reaction from my organs. Of course he won't make the bold move, because why the **** would he? This is Darcy Regier. Same dude who's been pulling the rug out from underneath us for almost 20 years.

Darcy never said he was going to trade up. People inferred too much from 'we understand we need elite talent'. They said they've attempted to try to move up, there was no definitive terms.

Maybe Darcy did throw the farm at Colorado but they didn't accept it. We don't know the whole story here. Obviously I want Mackinnon too and I'd be willing to overpay to a slight degree, but don't blame Darcy if teams don't want to trade their pick for anything. Would you trade the #1 pick if you had it this year?

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

..However, after WEEKS of "WE'RE TRADING UP!!", "WE'RE GUNNA GO GET OUR GUY...

This stuff was not said, Regier simply stated that they'd like to move up and would try. Until you're privy to these conversations with a three-way phone call prank you can't claim to know how far or how short those efforts went.

 

[Gabrielor]

Why people point to this draft as the only or best time to get a 'franchise player' is something that I've been openly questioning for weeks. Ekblad and McDavid are prospects with even more hype behind them.

Fear of Buffalo middle-pack syndrome.

So I'm arguing that we should be content picking 8--good luck finding where I've ever said that--and then you contend I have no beliefs at all. Which is it? Am I fervent about picking at 8 or just some draft nihilist?

I'm contending that I'm clinging to hope something happens between now and the selection. This is a good thread for such a topic

You type that as if it were an unreasonable thing to have been told.

I like when people retort with "No Dan, I reject your idea, and here's why" as opposed to "I'd rather go for the one-line zinger than discuss the Sabres". See Rob Pax's respond for an example of the former. I try to not be guilty of the latter as often as I can (though I'm no angel either).


No harm, no hate. I get like a pitbull when an idea comes that I like. That's why I won't let the Mac-idea go until the draft .

 

[Paxon]

Lindholm plz

This is the new best case scenario, unless something changes that lets us trade up for Barkov, which seems impossible because if he falls I'm pretty sure a majority of the teams from 4-7 have him as at least the 4th best player on their board.

The downside is he's another average height player to go with Hodgson, Larsson, etc down the middle, but the upside is he could easily be a top 2 center on a Cup team, especially with Girgensons/Larsson as one of the three centers. Monahan also has a chance to fall, though he's so damn "good ol' Canadian boy" I just don't see it happening. Nichushkin if you want to swing for the fences is a definite possibility to fall for is. At least Horvat (who I'm warming up to w/ ROR comparisons) or Ristolainen. This is where I was at weeks ago and I was thrilled about the possibility of adding "at worst" Ristolainen. I'll admit I got tumescent the past few days at the idea of trading up for Barkov, but I never really bought into it as being realistic.

A lot comes down to what we get at #16. If we get Lindholm + nail #16 then this is a great draft, period. If we get someone else at #8 + nail #16 it's at worst a very good draft.

I hope when players are actually selected everyone gives them a chance rather than hold the circumstances under which they were selected against them. These guys could quickly become among the best players on our team and faces of the franchise.

 

[Afinogretzky]

Darcy never said he was going to trade up. People inferred too much from 'we understand we need elite talent'. They said they've attempted to try to move up, there was no definitive terms.

Maybe Darcy did throw the farm at Colorado but they didn't accept it. We don't know the whole story here. Obviously I want Mackinnon too and I'd be willing to overpay to a slight degree, but don't blame Darcy if teams don't want to trade their pick for anything. Would you trade the #1 pick if you had it this year?

I guess I'm taking a massive leap then from "We're trying to move up" to "We are going to move up." I don't expect a GM to say things in such absolutes, but the guy was dropping hints almost daily back a few weeks ago. Should've kept his mouth shut.

 

[Afinogretzky]

This is the new best case scenario, unless something changes that lets us trade up for Barkov, which seems impossible because if he falls I'm pretty sure a majority of the teams from 4-7 have him as at least the 4th best player on their board.

The downside is he's another average height player to go with Hodgson, Larsson, etc down the middle, but the upside is he could easily be a top 2 center on a Cup team, especially with Girgensons/Larsson as one of the three centers. Monahan also has a chance to fall, though he's so damn "good ol' Canadian boy" I just don't see it happening. Nichushkin if you want to swing for the fences is a definite possibility to fall for is. At least Horvat (who I'm warming up to w/ ROR comparisons) or Ristolainen. This is where I was at weeks ago and I was thrilled about the possibility of adding "at worst" Ristolainen. I'll admit I got tumescent the past few days at the idea of trading up for Barkov, but I never really bought into it as being realistic.

A lot comes down to what we get at #16. If we get Lindholm + nail #16 then this is a great draft, period. If we get someone else at #8 + nail #16 it's at worst a very good draft.

I hope when players are actually selected everyone gives them a chance rather than hold the circumstances under which they were selected against them. These guys could quickly become among the best players on our team and faces of the franchise.

I think Lindholm can be better than that. I've seen lots of Zetterberg and Forsburg comparisons. Euro scouts absolutely rave about him. He's my guy at #5 if we can get there.

 

[Paxon]

I think Lindholm can be better than that. I've seen lots of Zetterberg and Forsburg comparisons. Euro scouts absolutely rave about him. He's my guy at #5 if we can get there.

I'm like Devine (presumably) in that when I say "top 6 center on a Cup team", that doesn't mean he can't be a "legitimate" 1st liner or must be a second line center. If he's one of your centers you can win a Cup. To me that's the next truly useful designation behind "franchise center". "1st line center" can be a useful phrase, but usually only in juxtaposition with "2nd line center" which implies specifically that a guy's not good enough for the top line.

In other words: Mac is a clear franchise center. Barkov can be a franchise center / the clear best center on a Cup winner. Lindholm could be one of the top 2 centers on a Cup team, possibly the best center on one. This is just loose talk obviously, but that's how I see it at this point. Forsberg and Zetterberg for example were just 1 of the 2 best centers on their winning teams. You can argue if they are better than Sakic and Datsyuk, but the point is you had two guys in the same ball park on both team, and that ball park is a great place to be.

 

[betterdays]

This would have all been so moot if the Sabres would have simply tanked as we advised them to....

 

[Beerz]

I guess I'm taking a massive leap then from "We're trying to move up" to "We are going to move up." I don't expect a GM to say things in such absolutes, but the guy was dropping hints almost daily back a few weeks ago. Should've kept his mouth shut.

Why? So then you could ***** that he didn't even try?

Its not anybodies fault but your own that you set such high expectations and are now bummed that they likely will not happen.

 

[ZZamboni]

Why? So then you could ***** that he didn't even try?

Its not anybodies fault but your own that you set such high expectations and are now bummed that they likely will not happen.

You typed the words right out of my head. It's his fault 100% that he reads one thing and interprets it another way, and then complain and rant about what wasn't said. Assumptions, reading more into things, misinterpretation.

Darcy, just like most other GM's will TRY TRY TRY to improve their draft position. To assume otherwise is plain stupid. And just because Darcy and most other GM's will fail, it doesn't mean they didn't try. To assume otherwise is plain stupid.

Unless a poster lives in a conspiracy world where they think GM's don't try to improve their team the best they can.

 

[sonnEbunny]

I don't see why everyone is reacting this way. You are all so willing to trade away half of our team for this player and you think it is a good deal for us. Maybe Darcy did make one of these offers and they saw the same thing that you all see and the avalanche turned it down. None of you have any knowledge to what Darcy offered to try to move up, it is very possible that he did in fact make a "BOLD" offer. The common opinion on this board is that Darcy sat in his chair called the avalanche and said hey do you want to trade us the first pick for Foligno and Miller and then after they turned it down he gave up. Without inside knowledge of the situation we really do not have the right to judge his efforts to trade up. Like I said for all we know he did make these offers and they were still turned down.

As it was mentioned about 1000 times; this is one of the deepest drafts in recent history, we can still get some very good players at 8 and 16. This could be the year where we pick up our Getzlaf and Perry, I don't see how picking at 8 and 16 is as bad of a thing as many of you are making this out to be. Plenty of teams would kill to be in our situation, it just seems like many of you are spoiled children and nothing will ever please you. I would also like to point out that Darcy never promised that we were trading up to #1 in this years draft so where does all of this anger come from? Many of you just need to start looking at things more objectively.

 

[sonnEbunny]

If we don't find a franchise player in the draft over the next 3 years I think we very well may get one when Patrick Kane becomes a free agent. Buffalo will almost certainly be a front runner to acquire him.

 

[Sabretip]

Don't worry about it guys, forget the draft, Darcy has something up his sleeve.....

My guess is that he is working Miller....

I keep saying it but Miller to Philly....

Courtier (or however you spell his name) for Miller are the principles....book it!!!!!!!

I'd still lay odds on a Colorado-Buffalo swap of some kind - it won't be the fantasized landing of the 1st draft pick but a swap of Miller for Stastny seems possible for both teams. Each team strengthens a currently weak position with a low-risk player (pending UFA) at nearly identical cap hits. If nothing else, it'd be a move each team may view as a bridge deal to buy some time for the younger players on their rosters to develop/mature with veterans that each need a change of scenery to recharge their batteries and game.

For the Sabres, Stastny may not be the dream # 1 center or best solution but he's still at a age where he can rebound strong with top line minutes and take the pressure off Hodgson and Grigorenko. If he doesn't fit in, his contract comes off the books next summer.

No matter how many Colorado fans praise Varlamov, I don't see Roy's "win now" approach accepting mediocre goaltending - and getting a proven # 1 vet like Miller seems to fit the bill in Denver where they're generating some buzz with new faces.

 

[Man of Principles]

Hmm...looking at things from a different angle...if Colorado takes MacKinnon, we should offer up #8 and Another valuable piece or two for Duchene. I think Duchene will have as good a career as any of the top centers in this draft. Just another idea if the player Darcy covets most is gone at 8. Is that something He would think about?

 

[SuperNintendoChalmrs]

Why? So then you could ***** that he didn't even try?

Its not anybodies fault but your own that you set such high expectations and are now bummed that they likely will not happen.

Ugh, that like sums up Buffalo fandom incredibly well.

 

[Sabretip]

Hmm...looking at things from a different angle...if Colorado takes MacKinnon, we should offer up #8 and Another valuable piece or two for Duchene. I think Duchene will have as good a career as any of the top centers in this draft. Just another idea if the player Darcy covets most is gone at 8. Is that something He would think about?

While Regier was more vague about trading down, Devine more or less shot down the notion of doing it with the 8th - he said they'd be more likely to trade the 16th if they're going to add more picks.

 

[is the answer jesus]

Hmm...looking at things from a different angle...if Colorado takes MacKinnon, we should offer up #8 and Another valuable piece or two for Duchene. I think Duchene will have as good a career as any of the top centers in this draft. Just another idea if the player Darcy covets most is gone at 8. Is that something He would think about?

Zero chance Duchene gets moved. The only guy I could see them possibly moving would be Statsny.

 

[haseoke39]

Would not be surprised if "difficult if not impossible" to Darcy means he has to give up what most of us here have been talking about. The little **** notoriously overvalues his own assets.

We'll never know, unless somebody else manages to move up and reveal the asking price.

 

[Gabrielor]

After a good night's sleep, a few observations:

I think that the teams in the top-4 probably aren't taking offers from the sounds of it, but we made offers anyways. Devine's line "...to do it...to move up at this point will hurt our depth going forward". That actually sounds like us offering something pretty generous (3-4 high end assets), and the top teams still suggesting more.

More importantly, "the teams at 3,4,5 all want a player". Call me crazy, but I think that's Barkov. So, if, hypothetically, Tampa takes Barkov, I think conversations could possibly be had about Drouin with Nashville. They need scoring, but they seem more interested in the center position. Would you offer any of our young centers for Drouin?

 

[Jim Bob]

I'd still lay odds on a Colorado-Buffalo swap of some kind - it won't be the fantasized landing of the 1st draft pick but a swap of Miller for Stastny seems possible for both teams. Each team strengthens a currently weak position with a low-risk player (pending UFA) at nearly identical cap hits. If nothing else, it'd be a move each team may view as a bridge deal to buy some time for the younger players on their rosters to develop/mature with veterans that each need a change of scenery to recharge their batteries and game.

For the Sabres, Stastny may not be the dream # 1 center or best solution but he's still at a age where he can rebound strong with top line minutes and take the pressure off Hodgson and Grigorenko. If he doesn't fit in, his contract comes off the books next summer.

No matter how many Colorado fans praise Varlamov, I don't see Roy's "win now" approach accepting mediocre goaltending - and getting a proven # 1 vet like Miller seems to fit the bill in Denver where they're generating some buzz with new faces.

If the Sabres deal Miller, it better be for far younger players than Stastny.

Miller for Stastny isn't the way to rebuild.