Speculation: Trading Up Part II: The Midnight Barkov

[Rowley Birkin]

Grigorenko+8th for Drouin is a no brainer.

We get one of the top prospects without gutting the team. Suprised he would make it to no.4 and if he did i'd be even more suprised Nashville would not jump at the chance of taking him.

He has a realistic chance of being the best player in the draft. You can only really say that about 2 or 3 other players (Mack, Jones, Nichu).

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

In my opinion Drouin is head shoulders above Monahan and Lindolm. If you have a shot at him you take it. Then possibly still get one of the 2 at 8. Thats why I wouldnt trade 8. If they arnt there then you can trade back a little and pick up Domi possibly. Either way I prolly like Drouin more then most so i dont blame you for not wanting to make the move.

By "head and shoulders above..." you're probably right as far as playmaking and overall offensive threat. I see Monahan as a better option for what the team needs, and what matters more in playoff hockey - leadership, faceoff ability especially, and a great two-way game. It's a coin flip though, if not a crap shoot. Let me check my crystal ball for 5-7 years into the future and I'll get back to you with a more informed opinion.

Ah, doesn't matter...Buffalo will be picking 8th and we'll just have to hope something unexpected happens.

 

[Gabrielor]

Guess Darcy spoke again today. Any details?

 

[sonnEbunny]

He mentioned that they did attempt to make a trade involving prospects, players and draft picks to move up. Darcy at one point asked is there any package that we could offer you to make you change your mind and they answered no we are going to make the pick.

EDIT: Also mentioned that he will make calls once the draft begins to see if anything has changed.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Regier said they have offered up depth (roster players, prospects, the 16th pick) to move up in the draft and have been rejected, but things can change on draft day if a team sees the player they want drafted in front of them.

Teams ahead of Buffalo appear to prefer FW, specifically C.

They won't take a goalie at #8, will be happy with BPA whether FW or D.

Thinks Larsson is ready for NHL.

 

[Gabrielor]

He mentioned that they did attempt to make a trade involving prospects, players and draft picks to move up. Darcy at one point asked is there any package that we could offer you to make you change your mind and they answered no we are going to make the pick.

EDIT: Also mentioned that he will make calls once the draft begins to see if anything has changed.

Any indication to a particular team or teams?

 

[stokes84]

Check the stickied thread. Woodhouse posted a link to the interview.

 

[SabresFan26]

I'm with this. Monahan and Lindholm are both great prospects, but Drouin has the potential to be a game-breaking offensive player in a way I don't think they do. The only 2 forwards I would take over him in this draft are MacKinnon and Barkov (who are already off the board in the fantasy scenario being discussed). And then if one of the centers fell to 8, it'd just be icing on the cake. We'd be looking at a young forward core of:

Drouin-Hodgson-Armia
Ennis-Monahan/Lindholm-Larsson
Foligno-Girgensons-Flynn
Catenacci-Kea-Tropp

Obviously not every single prospect is going to pan out, but that looks like a pretty deep pool of talent with a nice mix of offensive skill and grit and defense. If we had that as a basis, I think any leftover spots (where someone busted) could probably be filled in trade or FA pretty easily, because we'd be set at center at least.

Take Flynn out, move Larsson to the Girgensons line (they have insane chemistry) and than fill with a scoring RW. Other than that perfect.

Now more realistically (d taken at 8 and Zykov at 16, with no trades)

Vanek-Hodgson-Armia
Ennis-Grigorenko-Zykov
Foligno-Girgensons-Larsson
Cat-Kea-Tropp

 

[Gabrielor]

Check the stickied thread. Woodhouse posted a link to the interview.

Can't listen to it atm

 

[stokes84]

Can't listen to it atm

Basically, were settling in. My guess is that they offered a big pitch to Colorado, which was rebuffed. They were told to get into the top 4 and talk again, but were told by the teams in the top 4 that they weren't moving no matter what. So even if Colorado is willing to move, there seems to be no possibility of getting the pick which is the key to getting Colorado to listen. 5 and 6 might be willing to move if their target player is gone, but we won't know until they are on the board. The teams drafting ahead of us have indicated they want centers. IMO, that means Lindholm and Monahan will be gone by 8. If I were you, I'd start getting comfy with the idea of Nurse or Nichushkin at 8, with a small bit of hope that they can move ahead of Calgary to grab Lindholm or Monahan.

 

[ADoubleD]

You're not alone.

Devine's "top 6 forward or top 4 defensemen" comment really pissed me the **** off too. I look at our roster, and really the last 8 years and think, the last thing we need is more god damn 2nd liners. We need difference makers. We need another LaFontaine or Perreault. And now we're not going to get one unless we fall assbackwards into some serious luck.

In addition, part of the reason I was praying for a trade up was because I don't trust Darcy to pick the right guy. The only scenario I was comfortable with was him picking in the top 3, because even then, a monkey could press a button and do just as well.

At this point I'm just PRAYING someone in the top 7 takes someone a little off the radar. Or Edmonton takes a d-man. If Lindholm or Monahan was the pick at 8, I'd be thrilled. If that weird Toronto picking at #7 rumor comes true and they take one of the above guys, I might just lose my mind.

Yes because the only place you can draft difference makers is in the top 5 picks. I'm not even gonna point to ridiculous examples like Zetterberg and Datsyuk going in the 6th and 7th rounds. Just look at the draft everyone is comparing this one to, 2003.

The top five were MA Fleury, Eric Staal, Nathan Horton, Nikolai Zherdev, and Vanek. Out of those guys Staal is the only one I'd consider one of the top 5-10 players in that draft. Look at the rest of the first round of that draft.

7-Ryan Suter
11-Jeff Carter
13-Dustin Brown
14-Brent Seabrook
17-Zach Parise
19-Ryan Getzlaf
20-Brent Burns
23-Ryan Kesler
24-Mike Richards
28-Corey Perry

And then in the second round Loui Eriksson went 33rd, Patrice Bergeron 45th, and Shea Weber 49th.

Now I know most drafts don't look like this, but the point is that you can still find great players later in the 1st round. I understand the desire to move up because I'd love to get that franchise guy to, but I'm not really in favor of gutting the team and our prospect pool in the process. I also don't want to see them use tanking as a strategy to build their team.

Also I don't think Devine's top six forward or top four defenseman comment was intended to mean you're only gonna get 2nd liners or 2nd pairing guys with those picks. Call me crazy but I'm pretty sure first line players are in the top six and that #1 and #2 dmen are in the top four. Maybe I'm wrong but I take that quote as meaning at worst you'll walk away with 2nd liners or 2nd pairing.

Also I love how someone lumped in Ehrhoff with Stafford. I'd say Ehrhoff is a top pairing dman on most teams. I don't know how getting another guy that can play the type of minutes he can would be a bad thing especially if that guy is a more defensive defenseman. Also you use Stafford as a negative example of a top six forward, how about examples like Krejci, Bergeron, Seguin, Lucic, Sharp, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, Logan Couture, Joe Pavelski, Ryan Callahan, Bobby Ryan etc.

 

[sonnEbunny]

Basically, were settling in. My guess is that they offered a big pitch to Colorado, which was rebuffed. They were told to get into the top 4 and talk again, but were told by the teams in the top 4 that they weren't moving no matter what. So even if Colorado is willing to move, there seems to be no possibility of getting the pick which is the key to getting Colorado to listen. 5 and 6 might be willing to move if their target player is gone, but we won't know until they are on the board. The teams drafting ahead of us have indicated they want centers. IMO, that means Lindholm and Monahan will be gone by 8. If I were you, I'd start getting comfy with the idea of Nurse or Nichushkin at 8, with a small bit of hope that they can move ahead of Calgary to grab Lindholm or Monahan.

In addition to this, he also made it sound like he believes that there are 6 elite players in this draft; I'm sure he will continue his efforts to try and trade up to get one of those players. If we can't it will BPA, at this point I would not be disappointed if we drafted two defenseman, I like the BPA strategy.

 

[stokes84]

You don't consider Vanek in that group? Oooooook.... Trying too hard.

 

[Gabrielor]

Maybe Nichushkin and Grigs could feed off the fact that they were rebuffed from going higher because of the Russian factor.

I hold onto hope though, for now.

 

[stokes84]

In addition to this, he also made it sound like he believes that there are 6 elite players in this draft; I'm sure he will continue his efforts to try and trade up to get one of those players. If we can't it will BPA, at this point I would not be disappointed if we drafted two defenseman, I like the BPA strategy.

The interesting thing is figuring out who those 6 are. Obviously the top 4 of Mac, Jones, Drouin, Barkov. But it was in reference to the Central Scouting Directors comments of 5, with Nurse, and maybe Nichushkin. This leaves Lindholm and Monahan on the outside. Do teams that want centers then "reach" for those guys? If so, we get one of the percieved elite guys at 8, which makes me think are content to sit an see how it breaks.

 

[Zman5778]

If I were you, I'd start getting comfy with the idea of Nurse or Nichushkin at 8, with a small bit of hope that they can move ahead of Calgary to grab Lindholm or Monahan.

The more I see and read and hear, I think we're gonna get "stuck" with a choice of Nurse or Ristolianen.

I think the top 4 go and then VN, EL and SM in some order, leaving us with an interesting decision

 

[ADoubleD]

good god. where to start.

a stacked draft does not mean solid 2nd liners. 2003 gave us staal, vanek, suter, phaneuf, carter, seabrook, d. brown, parise, getzlaf, kesler, richards, perry in the 1st round alone. those are all top 50 players, or stanely cup winning contributors with 1 or 2 exceptions.

what's so funny about the hall of famer comment? everyone in the top 6 of this draft has been said to be a top 3 pick most years. just about every draft class churns out 2-3 hall of famers. are we not going to try to get one? because we don't want to give up depth?

your stamkos example is terrible. for every superstar at 1 who didn't win the cup, there's lecavalier, kane, and crosby. stamkos is a building block until 2025. players will want to go there and play with him. i don't know why you laugh off to suggestion of getting one of our own no matter the price.

can't wait until we pick darnell nurse at 8, while darcy spins it and says "he's the guy we wanted!!!", and fans like you eat it up.

Actually I think the Stamkos example has a lot of relevance in this discussion.

Tampa drafted Stamkos 1st overall in 08 and Victor Hedman 2nd overall in 09 while having star players like St. Louis and Lecavilier. They made the playoffs a couple of times after that, but are picking 3rd overall this year despite having the top two point leaders in the NHL one of whom is a former 1st overall pick.

It's a joke that they are picking that high again this year with the type of high end talent they have. It just goes to show that without an overall good team it doesn't matter if you have superstars. Tampa should be a playoff team with the top end talent they have, but their GM can't manage to assemble a good enough supporting cast for them to be one.

 

[ADoubleD]

darcy and devine stated it would screw up the organizational depth to move up to that spot. i think that is a crock of **** of the highest order.

the argument whether or not avs/panthers/bolts would give up that pick isn't really my point. my point is how pathetic darcy's excuses are for not being willing to take a shot for once.

I think their point was that in order for those teams to give up those picks it would take packages that most fans would hate. Like Hodgson, Myers, both firsts, maybe Pysyk or Grigorenko.

I mean just go back and look at the Lindros trade to see if its worth it.

Here's an article where you can read up on all the trades the Nordiques/Avs were able to make with the pieces they got for Lindros. I'd say the highlights would obviously be Forsberg, and trading Thibault, who they drafted with one of the Flyers' picks, for Patrick Roy.

http://www.sportsology.info/node/11369

 

[ADoubleD]

You don't consider Vanek in that group? Oooooook.... Trying too hard.

Who is that in response to?

 

[1TuchAnd1NoTuch]

I'd take risto

 

[sonnEbunny]

The interesting thing is figuring out who those 6 are. Obviously the top 4 of Mac, Jones, Drouin, Barkov. But it was in reference to the Central Scouting Directors comments of 5, with Nurse, and maybe Nichushkin. This leaves Lindholm and Monahan on the outside. Do teams that want centers then "reach" for those guys? If so, we get one of the percieved elite guys at 8, which makes me think are content to sit an see how it breaks.

I could see those being the top 6 but I think it could be any of the following: Nurse, Risto, Zadorov, Nichushkin or Lindholm(in no particular order). I personally think Lindholm is in their top 6, he has top line potential, is a great two way player and is a never quit player on the ice. With Darcy, Kevin and Terry coming out and saying we value hard work highly I think he could very well be in that top 6 conversation. If I had to guess I would say it is the consensus top 4 plus Lindholm and Nichushkin but it could definitely differ from that. I can't wait for the draft!

 

[Chainshot]

Lindholm is their 6th guy.

 

[gallagt01]

Lindholm is their 6th guy.

Then go get him.

If Rutherford truly wants help now and is willing to move five to do it, move up three spots at the expense of Sekera or Ehrhoff.

 

[Zip15]

Then go get him.

If Rutherford truly wants help now and is willing to move five to do it, move up three spots at the expense of Sekera or Ehrhoff.

That's what Darcy is saying is the issue: these teams have a player they want, but aren't willing to entertain the idea of moving down unless that player is gone. At that point, the teams know what they can get for their pick because the Sabres and other teams have likely indicated what they'd move, and they can make the decision about taking the pick or trading it.

 

[Gabrielor]

That's what Darcy is saying is the issue: these teams have a player they want, but aren't willing to entertain the idea of moving down unless that player is gone. At that point, the teams know what they can get for their pick because the Sabres and other teams have likely indicated what they'd move, and they can make the decision about taking the pick or trading it.

He did bring into question smoke-and-mirrors and bs'ing though. I wonder how many GM's who 'refused' deals might take a second look before/on draft day.