Trades: The one area where a lack of NHL GM experience hurts

[Riellyfan04]

love our management team!!! kessel trade is good now we need to trade bozak,lupul,dion,jvr n stack up the picks!!! follow Sabres plan! they are stacked with top prospects

 

[Vexed]

Experience has positives and negatives. Experience caused this mess we found ourselves in and it continued to believe we were better than we really were.

Tons of experienced GM's are on the losing side of many trades for whatever reasons are found in the market at any particular time.

Typically hanging onto experience for the sake of experience is a negative thing perpetuated by older people who think time earns them a pass over more skilled and harder working young folk. Thankfully its a dying philosophy in todays world.

I think there are a lot of legitimate factors surrounding Kessel's return and inexperience is not one of them

 

[The Winter Soldier]

At least Dave Nonis. This guy spent weeks in Nashville talking trade and he got exactly what he wanted for Cody Franson. There's no way he would caved to Jim Rutherford.

There was nothing wrong with Burke's last 5 trades. JVR, Versteeg, Kaberle, Beauchemin, and Dion. It was other things that you could criticize him for.

Nonis' last 3 trades were excellent also, Franson+Santa for a valuable pick #24, also made some good deals on Winnik(2nd and a 4th), and Clarkson.

If people want to criticize experience, they can. But there is no doubt these 2 men's deals were far better than the one Shanahan pulled off yesterday.

 

[buttman*]

You know, the interesting thing about this thread title? Really, interesting. IT"S ALL THIS EXPERIENCED MANAGEMENT THAT ****ED THINGS UP IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You know, the interesting thing about this thread title? Really, interesting. IT"S ALL THIS EXPERIENCED MANAGEMENT THAT ****ED THINGS UP IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I think experience is being referenced in trades. And as illustrated above in the last 3-5 deals by Burke and Nonis. One can say they did very well.

 

[BayStreetBully]

There was nothing wrong with Burke's last 5 trades. JVR, Versteeg, Kaberle, Beauchemin, and Dion. It was other things that you could criticize him for.

Nonis' last 3 trades were excellent also, Franson+Santa for a valuable pick #24, also made some good deals on Winnik(2nd and a 4th), and Clarkson.

If people want to criticize experience, they can. But there is no doubt these 2 men's deals were far better than the one Shanahan pulled off yesterday.

Burke's Kessel blunder outweighs all of the little good deals he made.

Nonis made good trades but bad signings.

Shanahan did the best he could given the contract length and NTC.

 

[glue]

I think experience is being referenced in trades. And as illustrated above in the last 3-5 deals by Burke and Nonis. One can say they did very well.

My god man..your bias is unbelievable...you only see what you want to. Were Burke/Nonis making trades on guys in a cap world signed to ridiculous contracts and terms? This is basically Shanny and company undoing the Burke/Nonis mess. If those 2 were around, they would have suggested what a great team the leafs are and having Kessel and Phaneuf around was the best thing. Thank god those guys are gone and we're finally moving in the right direction. Phaneuf and Kessel were not the right guys to build around, but rather good support guys - which is what Phil will now be in Pittsburgh.

 

[rrc1967]

My god man..your bias is unbelievable...you only see what you want to. Were Burke/Nonis making trades on guys in a cap world signed to ridiculous contracts and terms?

Funny thing is at the time Nonis got kessel to sign at 8 for 8 everyone thought he worked magic.

If kessel had waited he could have commanded over 10M per year in the subsequent off season because the cap was jumping up.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1507273&highlight=kessel+signs

funny, i don't see anything considering it being a ridiculous contract here...

 

[Bobs your uncle]

Management had no leverage. Bringing Kessel back was not a palatable option.

100% accurate.

 

[glue]

Funny thing is at the time Nonis got kessel to sign at 8 for 8 everyone thought he worked magic.

If kessel had waited he could have commanded over 10M per year in the subsequent off season because the cap was jumping up.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1507273&highlight=kessel+signs

funny, i don't see anything considering it being a ridiculous contract here...

I was responding with regards to 'Mentalist' suggesting those guys made 'excellent' trades while Shanny is some sort of dummy, ignoring the contract term and length after yet another failed year being part of the 'core'. I don't see how anyone could be so confident that those guys or 'any' experienced GM could have done a better job. Talk about comparing apples to oranges.

To emphasize the above, I used the word ridiculous, but I'll clarify - to trade in a cap world a guy who's been part of repeated failures and the best player in your core and questioned for his character (as a result of being part of those failures) is bound to lower his value when he's signed to the term and length of the contract he has. Therefore trying to trade him would always be from a position of weakness. So its irrelevant how 'fair' that 8x8 contract was, his current value with 7 years left in the situation their in, would make it difficult for 'any' GM to pull off some awesome trade. I think most recognize the return was not what we would have hoped for, but accept that we were hamstrung and likely not going to do much better. But the insistent arguing by some that this is somehow due to a lack of experience makes zero sense once all factors are taken into consideration.

 

[BlueBaron]

I was responding with regards to 'Mentalist' suggesting those guys made 'excellent' trades while Shanny is some sort of dummy, ignoring the contract term and length after yet another failed year being part of the 'core'. I don't see how anyone could be so confident that those guys or 'any' experienced GM could have done a better job. Talk about comparing apples to oranges.

To emphasize the above, I used the word ridiculous, but I'll clarify - to trade in a cap world a guy who's been part of repeated failures and the best player in your core and questioned for his character (as a result of being part of those failures) is bound to lower his value when he's signed to the term and length of the contract he has. Therefore trying to trade him would always be from a position of weakness. So its irrelevant how 'fair' that 8x8 contract was, his current value with 7 years left in the situation their in, would make it difficult for 'any' GM to pull off some awesome trade. I think most recognize the return was not what we would have hoped for, but except that we were hamstrung and likely not going to do much better. But the insistent arguing by some that this is somehow due to a lack of experience makes zero sense once all factors are taken into consideration.

Yeah this thread is akin to being mad at your wife because when she sold your Apple stocks the price was lower than when your brother sold his. Guess she should never sell anything again....

How can anyone say if they did a good or bad job ? If a vet GM could have got more ? There is just no way to know. You would have to know the mind of the other 29 GMs.

It was a disappointing return but at least we turned the page, time to move forward because this will not be the last disappointment. To stay sane during a rebuild it is best to focus on the positives, getting upset about things you have invented in your head or every deal that didn't go the way you want is a fast track to hating the rebuilding of next few years.

 

[Bobs your uncle]

I have no problem dealing Phil. What I do have a problem with is the return, timing, and non creativity with this deal perhaps a better more experienced GM could have pulled off.

Leafs did not just have to deal Kessel, if they were getting such low returns. Package him with JVR and his favourable 4.25 caphit.

This deal lacked real perspective, creativity to get us better assets for the rebuild. That's what we are doing rebuilding I hear.

If Kessel alone was not fetching return, how about adding JVR or Kadri? I don't know if Shanahan considered this. He never made a deal in his life so I would expect the answer would be no. But maybe packaging was the best way to go.

I will say it again, but not having an experienced GM in place prior to the draft was the wrong way to go.

Forget about what other fan bases or other GM's thought of Phil. Based solely upon what Shannahan & Co. accepted as a return for Kessel should tell Leaf fans what this organization thought of that asset.
They thought so poorly of the player that he was essentially a buy out. Despite his scoring touch management wanted so badly to rid themselves of this distraction, his contract and anything related to Phil that they decided we'd rather simply flush him than have him possibly taint the waters moving forward. Do you not think if Babcock thought he might be able rehabilitate Phil that he would have told management to keep the winger? Babcock would rather coach a less skilled team than spend untold hour's minimizing Kessels negative effect.
A player with his offensive skills normally would have had other clubs trying to outbid each other in hopes of getting this 'elite' talent. Ask yourself why no other clubs wanted him and those even remotely interested were asking the Leafs to retain more contract & offer lesser returns? Too much risk for questionable return. IMO, simply getting rid of the player & 85% of his contract & term is the best return.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Without having a GM we traded David Clarkson. I'm good with that

 

[BlueBaron]

Without having a GM we traded David Clarkson. I'm good with that

We had Nonis at the time, but if you are saying he isn't/wasn't a real GM many would agree with you.

 

[Muston Atthews]

We had Nonis at the time, but if you are saying he isn't/wasn't a real GM many would agree with you.

Nonis had no part in that deal. How soon after was he fired?

 

[BlueBaron]

Nonis had no part in that deal. How soon after was he fired?

Well he made the trade during the trade deadline and stayed with us until the season ended so I guess 3 months and change after the deal was made. You must know secret things about the assistant GM's ignoring Nonis and doing as they pleased during his last few months or you are clearly mistaken. Considering he made the trade I will go with mistaken.

 

[ironhorse384]

Brian Burke had experience..................
Dave Nonis had experience...................
How well did that work out?..................

 

[BlueBaron]

Brian Burke had experience..................
Dave Nonis had experience...................
How well did that work out?..................

Stan Bowman has experience, how is he doing ? Or that Holland guy ?

Experience isn't everything but trying to portray it as a negative is pretty ridiculous.

 

[ironhorse384]

Stan Bowman has experience, how is he doing ? Or that Holland guy ?

Experience isn't everything but trying to portray it as a negative is pretty ridiculous.

What does Stan Bowman or Ken Holland have to do with my point?
Neither Burke or Nonis who have experience were able to turn this team from non playoff to playoff so why not give the non experienced guys a chance?

 

[ACC1224]

What does Stan Bowman or Ken Holland have to do with my point?
Neither Burke or Nonis who have experience were able to turn this team from non playoff to playoff so why not give the non experienced guys a chance?

Burke wasn't given a fair chance but that's another story.

 

[BlueBaron]

What does Stan Bowman or Ken Holland have to do with my point?
Neither Burke or Nonis who have experience were able to turn this team from non playoff to playoff so why not give the non experienced guys a chance?

The point is not all experienced GM's enjoy the same results. I have no issue with the current management group but it's silly to ignore experience also has advantages.

 

[Guy Boucher]

No doubt the low return on Kessel will invite questions about the lack of a GM in Toronto, however it's important to note that Saad and Hamilton both got pretty weak returns as well.

Even the Lucic trade was for a pretty weak return, especially if Boston wasn't able to flip Jones for another 1st.

It's been a weird offseason. Good players have been traded for very little, and goalie value has jumped up for some reason.

The question may not be whether not having a GM hurt us, but rather, whether this was the best time to trade Kessel (hint: it wasn't).

 

[ironhorse384]

Burke wasn't given a fair chance but that's another story.

Five years isn't enough time to see if you can get a team trending in the right direction?

 

[tokyoite]

What does Stan Bowman or Ken Holland have to do with my point?
Neither Burke or Nonis who have experience were able to turn this team from non playoff to playoff so why not give the non experienced guys a chance?

agree

 

[glue]

No doubt the low return on Kessel will invite questions about the lack of a GM in Toronto, however it's important to note that Saad and Hamilton both got pretty weak returns as well.

Even the Lucic trade was for a pretty weak return, especially if Boston wasn't able to flip Jones for another 1st.

It's been a weird offseason. Good players have been traded for very little, and goalie value has jumped up for some reason.

The question may not be whether not having a GM hurt us, but rather, whether this was the best time to trade Kessel (hint: it wasn't).

I know you've likely answered this elsewhere, but sorry not privy to your earlier responses, so could you please expand on why you are certain trading Kessel later would have ensured us better returns?