Trades: The one area where a lack of NHL GM experience hurts

[Riellyfan04]

What did you guys honestly expect in return for Kessel? a guy whos getting 8m a year??? for 7 more years... We got a great return! and im sure if there was better offers out there, Shanny and Hunter woulda taken it! We got enough for Kessel, now get over it! We are finally fully rebuilding

 

[Warden of the North]

Havent the multitude of terrible deals done over the years to this team by "experienced GMs" taught us that experience really means squat?

This wasnt a bad trade. Was it a great trade for us at this point? No. It could certainly turn out to be if one of the pieces turns into a star and Phil's wheels fall off two years from now.

 

[Stephen]

They had to make that deal to a) give the new Babcock system a chance b) completely nuke the culture in the room c) add to the youth being accumulated d) shed a ton of cap space to go for something truly special.

 

[hockeyes]

Id be willing to take that bet. Every time. I know we just added an all world talent like Winnik, but this team is gonna make last years Sabres look like the Hawks.

I just hope we can continue dominating the Sabres next year.

http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/gamecenter/en/recap?id=2014020251

 

[kihei]

I have no problem dealing Phil. What I do have a problem with is the return, timing, and non creativity with this deal perhaps a better more experienced GM could have pulled off.

Leafs did not just have to deal Kessel, if they were getting such low returns. Package him with JVR and his favourable 4.25 caphit.

This deal lacked real perspective, creativity to get us better assets for the rebuild. That's what we are doing rebuilding I hear.

If Kessel alone was not fetching return, how about adding JVR or Kadri? I don't know if Shanahan considered this. He never made a deal in his life so I would expect the answer would be no. But maybe packaging was the best way to go.

I will say it again, but not having an experienced GM in place prior to the draft was the wrong way to go.

You seem to like making grand, sweeping pronouncements on the basis of too little or highly spun information. You don't know that an experienced GM would have gotten more or handled the situation better; you don't know if entering JVR or Kadri into the conversation would have ended up being a good idea or a disastrous one; you don't have any clue about what Shanahan considered or didn't consider. I don't think we will know who won the trade for a couple of years. Some people may be disappointed now; they may not be disappointed then. Perhaps Kapanen and Harrington will surprise even you.

 

[The Apologist]

I just hope we can continue dominating the Sabres next year.

http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/gamecenter/en/recap?id=2014020251

I just know theres a point to this post somewhere.....
Cant put my finger on it though.

 

[Drew75]

I'm not happy with the return, but I'm also not naive enough to think this was due to the experience of our management team. It was pretty much a no win situation.

You have an elite talent who visibly 'called it in' for half a season. He's known as one dimensional, not committed to training, and has an $8million cap hit with a limited NMC.

The brass had maybe two or three teams that even COULD fit as potential trade partners, and even Shanny said today the other teams were demanding more retention. Trying to trade a big risk of 7 years on a declining asset is no easy task. The factors against a Kessel deal are huge - but he was the poster boy for giving up halfway through the year. The brass needed him gone, and to retain as little as possible while getting future assets.

I hate that we retained, I hate that we included a 2nd, and I especially hate the lottery protection. I do, however realize this was not a bad trade due to inexperience, but rather making the best of a bad situation.

My takeaways are simply - yes, the Leafs are finally going to build it the right way, and that a lot of HF Boards seems to still think the real NHL works like the video game.

 

[glue]

I'm not happy with the return, but I'm also not naive enough to think this was due to the experience of our management team. It was pretty much a no win situation.

You have an elite talent who visibly 'called it in' for half a season. He's known as one dimensional, not committed to training, and has an $8million cap hit with a limited NMC.

The brass had maybe two or three teams that even COULD fit as potential trade partners, and even Shanny said today the other teams were demanding more retention. Trying to trade a big risk of 7 years on a declining asset is no easy task. The factors against a Kessel deal are huge - but he was the poster boy for giving up halfway through the year. The brass needed him gone, and to retain as little as possible while getting future assets.

I hate that we retained, I hate that we included a 2nd, and I especially hate the lottery protection. I do, however realize this was not a bad trade due to inexperience, but rather making the best of a bad situation.

My takeaways are simply - yes, the Leafs are finally going to build it the right way, and that a lot of HF Boards seems to still think the real NHL works like the video game.

Finally someone who gets it. Though not fair to say that like you're the only one - I just meant, you're not alone.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I don't expect Shanahan to lose his fans here, but some should atleast question the direction this team is going in trades if this is the best deal this current Mgt team can make with its marquee player. You do not have to be on team Shanahan or other to recognize this. The man is on the job for more than a year now. We should expect better.

 

[Lubo]

I'm not happy with the return, but I'm also not naive enough to think this was due to the experience of our management team. It was pretty much a no win situation.

You have an elite talent who visibly 'called it in' for half a season. He's known as one dimensional, not committed to training, and has an $8million cap hit with a limited NMC.

The brass had maybe two or three teams that even COULD fit as potential trade partners, and even Shanny said today the other teams were demanding more retention. Trying to trade a big risk of 7 years on a declining asset is no easy task. The factors against a Kessel deal are huge - but he was the poster boy for giving up halfway through the year. The brass needed him gone, and to retain as little as possible while getting future assets.

I hate that we retained, I hate that we included a 2nd, and I especially hate the lottery protection. I do, however realize this was not a bad trade due to inexperience, but rather making the best of a bad situation.

My takeaways are simply - yes, the Leafs are finally going to build it the right way, and that a lot of HF Boards seems to still think the real NHL works like the video game.

Yes. All of this. Plain as day, not sure where the confusion for some comes in.

 

[The Podium]

I'm not happy with the return, but I'm also not naive enough to think this was due to the experience of our management team. It was pretty much a no win situation.

You have an elite talent who visibly 'called it in' for half a season. He's known as one dimensional, not committed to training, and has an $8million cap hit with a limited NMC.

The brass had maybe two or three teams that even COULD fit as potential trade partners, and even Shanny said today the other teams were demanding more retention. Trying to trade a big risk of 7 years on a declining asset is no easy task. The factors against a Kessel deal are huge - but he was the poster boy for giving up halfway through the year. The brass needed him gone, and to retain as little as possible while getting future assets.

I hate that we retained, I hate that we included a 2nd, and I especially hate the lottery protection. I do, however realize this was not a bad trade due to inexperience, but rather making the best of a bad situation.

My takeaways are simply - yes, the Leafs are finally going to build it the right way, and that a lot of HF Boards seems to still think the real NHL works like the video game.

Best post in this thread. It seems many fans aren't thinking rationally about the situation.

 

[Liminality]

I don't expect Shanahan to lose his fans here, but some should atleast question the direction this team is going in trades if this is the best deal this current Mgt team can make with its marquee player. You do not have to be on team Shanahan or other to recognize this. The man is on the job for more than a year now. We should expect better.

The GM's who were here before him already handcuffed him in this trade. Look at the trade, there's no doubt in the direction this team is going is there? This team is going after young and skilled assets. Did they get less than they could have? Probably but that's because of the GM's before Shanahan.

Also never use team Shanahan again, there are no dividing teams because in the end everyone is on team Leafs. Don't try to create something like that to amuse yourself.

 

[The Podium]

I don't expect Shanahan to lose his fans here, but some should atleast question the direction this team is going in trades if this is the best deal this current Mgt team can make with its marquee player. You do not have to be on team Shanahan or other to recognize this. The man is on the job for more than a year now. We should expect better.

The Nash trade was just as head scratching and in the long run ended up being best for the blue jackets. Marquee players aren't dealt for equal value plain and simple. The number of suitors are minimal and the team acquiring the high profile player usually has all the leverage in a deal like this. There should be no questioning the management about this because any rational fan that can actually take a step back and assess the deal from an unbiased POV would realize that when someone has their hands tied they tend to get prison raped.

 

[ULF_55]

I really like the inexperienced management of this team.

Several of us here at HF's have been saying for a decade:

BLOW IT UP

You can't blow it up if you are an experienced management team because you are under pressure to win now.

Burke - Win NOW
Nonis - Win NOW

Shanahan - Long term success is the goal.

Shanahan age 46, Burke 60.

Understand the older guys are under pressure, the younger guys have another decade before they're under that win now pressure.

Not everyone has an expected life span of 90+ years, so for them approaching 60 might make them inpatient for a rebuild.

Maybe due to my age, I know shortcuts usually result in coming up short.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The GM's who were here before him already handcuffed him in this trade. Look at the trade, there's no doubt in the direction this team is going is there? This team is going after young and skilled assets. Did they get less than they could have? Probably but that's because of the GM's before Shanahan.

Also never use team Shanahan again, there are no dividing teams because in the end everyone is on team Leafs. Don't try to create something like that to amuse yourself.

There was Team Burke long before Team Shanahan. There was even Team Nonis when we made the playoffs once this decade. Nothing lasts forever, best to remember this. The only thing I want, is to see another team like the 93 Leafs. That was when he had a good Manager that came within 5 games of winning it all.

 

[Liminality]

There was Team Burke long before Team Shanahan. There was even Team Nonis when we made the playoffs once this decade. Nothing lasts forever, best to remember this. The only thing I want, is to see another team like the 93 Leafs. That was when he had a good Manager that came within 5 games of winning it all.

That's because people like you enforce taking a side, always playing devil's advocate for the sake of it, it seems.
To me and hopefully most of the fan base, there are no little bickering teams and are just cheering for the Leafs.

Shanahan has really just started his rebuild now and as expected the core is already being purged like everyone wanted.

 

[Drew75]

I don't expect Shanahan to lose his fans here, but some should atleast question the direction this team is going in trades if this is the best deal this current Mgt team can make with its marquee player. You do not have to be on team Shanahan or other to recognize this. The man is on the job for more than a year now. We should expect better.

If Kessel had 3 years left on his deal, I would agree with you, but you can't ignore the factors that hamstrung the Leafs on this one. I'm not blindly defending them, and am the first to say I'm not happy retaining, giving up a pick, or having lottery protection on the first - but you and others are presenting it as though there were no restrictions to making a deal

How many teams could responsibly fit his contract in long term? Maybe 3 or 4?
How many of those teams would he be willing to go to? 2?

Now - if we were trading FOR Kessel, what would we look at? He's likely to decline halfway through the remainder of his deal? He has known lack of commitment to training?

So you have a market of maybe 2 teams, and you're selling a flawed product. You can't bring him back as he's the poster child for the bad culture you are trying to change. Neither team is wiling to sell the farm, and both want you to retain. You make the best deal for your teams future you can. You add a couple of solid prospects, a young guy who can be flipped at the deadline, extra picks for your revamped scouting staff, $6.8 million of cap space to be creative with, and most importantly, the start of a culture change for your team.

That is how it works in real life.

 

[The Beyonder]

I think it had more to do with wanting to get rid of him than just a lack of experience. Which, if that was the case, I don't understand. This rebuild isn't going to have a 2-3 year window; why sell Kessel now when his value is at his lowest? Why not let him play out the year with Babcock. Yes, you run the risks of him getting injured or regressing, but imo, this offer has some bad parts. That conditional first, giving up a 2nd, all while retaining salary is bad. I don't buy the Kessel is a bad character BS. His team mates like him, he's not a cancer.

 

[Drew75]

There was Team Burke long before Team Shanahan. There was even Team Nonis when we made the playoffs once this decade. Nothing lasts forever, best to remember this. The only thing I want, is to see another team like the 93 Leafs. That was when he had a good Manager that came within 5 games of winning it all.

LOL - you should be thrilled then!

That 'good manager' of the '93 team is on Shanny's staff!

 

[burpsalot]

That's because people like you enforce taking a side, always playing devil's advocate for the sake of it seems.
To me and hopefully most of the fan base, there are no little bickering teams and are just cheering for the Leafs.

Shanahan has really just started his rebuild now and as expected the core is already being purged like everyone wanted.

Mentalist is just on his bi-weekly anti Shanahan rant. Kind of like having a Mini-Steve Simmons on here.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

LOL - you should be thrilled then!

That 'good manager' of the '93 team is on Shanny's staff!

Closer to Tanenbaum's staff. He will be here for the next President also, whenever that will be. Possibly in 3 more years. There are no guarantees Presidents last longer than 5 years in this market.

Like I said, I recognize Shanny has the halo now, I have seen a lot of Presidents/GM's with the same halo. I am realistic of how Leafs fans are and can turn.

 

[fahad203]

I think it had more to do with wanting to get rid of him than just a lack of experience. Which, if that was the case, I don't understand. This rebuild isn't going to have a 2-3 year window; why sell Kessel now when his value is at his lowest? Why not let him play out the year with Babcock. Yes, you run the risks of him getting injured or regressing, but imo, this offer has some bad parts. That conditional first, giving up a 2nd, all while retaining salary is bad. I don't buy the Kessel is a bad character BS. His team mates like him, he's not a cancer.

The case is he's still just 27 turning 28. You wait another year now he's creeping in 30s category. It's not always about the return. We have a chance to clear up space, start a fresh without the cloud when he'll get traded. Short term loss is necessary for long term disaster. I think we did good as any team could have gotten.

I am not worried about that draft pick. If we get it we get it. I am very happy that we are simply moving on.

 

[The Podium]

I think it had more to do with wanting to get rid of him than just a lack of experience. Which, if that was the case, I don't understand. This rebuild isn't going to have a 2-3 year window; why sell Kessel now when his value is at his lowest? Why not let him play out the year with Babcock. Yes, you run the risks of him getting injured or regressing, but imo, this offer has some bad parts. That conditional first, giving up a 2nd, all while retaining salary is bad. I don't buy the Kessel is a bad character BS. His team mates like him, he's not a cancer.

There was a storm brewing. Kessel under Julien, the sulking benched young star could have potentially been reincarnated in his 27 year old self under Babcock for starters. Or the fact that right now teams are looking at a 3 month span of bad play, had it gone longer would they begin to wonder whether hes already on the decline and not offer anything (Semin, Heatley both similar players with an early decline)? What message would it send to the players if after 3 failed seasons everything remained intact? There were too many risks in bringing Kessel back.

 

[Gabriel426]

What do think think Stan Bowman would do if he is the GM for Leafs.
1. Kessel have a limited no trade clause which I am pretty sure Arizona, Florida and Carolina are not on it.
2. The media and us fans have trashed all the value of Kessel over the past season.
3. Kessel is at its lowest point in terms of value.
4. Seems like Leafs want him gone bc he is a cancer on the team.
5. Not a lot of teams is willing to pay the price of Kessel.

Last but not least, if Kessel is not traded today, most of you will still complain about lack of actions and how Leafs should trade him before his value drops more.

 

[Diatomic]

I don't like the kessel trade, value is too low for my liking.

BUT

If we started the season with Kessel and phaneuf in the roster I would be mad. We all wanted a change and we got it. Let's move on.