Trades: The one area where a lack of NHL GM experience hurts

[Tak7]

I don't expect Shanahan to lose his fans here, but some should atleast question the direction this team is going in trades if this is the best deal this current Mgt team can make with its marquee player. You do not have to be on team Shanahan or other to recognize this. The man is on the job for more than a year now. We should expect better.

It's been a crazy day, and pages and pages worth of stuff has been posted here.

And yet, this post is probably the most common sense thing I've read so far.

Thumbs up.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

It's been a crazy day, and pages and pages worth of stuff has been posted here.

And yet, this post is probably the most common sense thing I've read so far.

Thumbs up.

Thanks, as I said earlier today. I have never agreed with so many posters I usually disagree on.

This sentiment was the genesis of this.

Cheers, Leafs fans are a bright bunch and getting brighter.

 

[wulfio*]

I wonder when it will sink in for Leaf fans that Kessel is not worth as much as they think. We're not building fantasy teams here.

 

[Daisy Jane]

it just hit me.

Burke waited a year - and traded for Phil Kessel - taking a big risk, and ultimately paying too much in the end.

Shanahan waited a year - and traded away Phil Kessel - taking a big risk, and we don't even know what those dividends will be as of yet.

As I said, I get that people want to have reactions now, and what not - to me, there are so many moving parts yet to come + what the Leafs get now (cap space among other things) that I am pretty sure, it will all work out in the end.

If I told you that that part of the Nash deal (that almost no one liked) would several years later bring in Saad (an up and coming player) to Columbus I don't think people would believe me.

Make the deal work out for you as much as you can.

 

[LaCarriere]

I truly believed "experience" is a tad overrated, but if there is one area where it is crucial... it is trades.

I have faith in Shanahan, Pridham, Dubas and Hunter. They are smart hockey minds, and talent evaluators. However I don't think they have the NHL experience to be pulling off big trades right now.

Can someone explain to me why this dead had to happen today? It seems Pittsburgh was big into Kessel. I don't see why management could not have waited a few days for the market to sort itself out?

I just think that a person with prior NHL management experience would have been able to know whether the Leafs could afford to hand back and wait a bit.

For all this talk of patience, the Leafs crew traded Kessel literally the first day it was possible.

Before we trade anyone else, please I want a GM!

I'm not sure what type of return you were expecting for a player with a limited-NMC that only has a trade list of 8 teams, which also need to be able to fit his 8M cap hit. Of those 8 teams there were probably half that could make the contract work, and then subtract teams that just aren't interested, and you're probably left with the reported 3 teams that were talking to Toronto. PIT knew there wasn't many teams interested - they didn't need to offer the world for Kessel. Add in the fact that the media and fans have turned on him long ago, and that doesn't help his value either. Other GMs are paying attention to that.

If Toronto wanted to get rid of Kessel - and really it didn't make much sense having him there, he wasn't going to be a part of any cup run - then take it because that's probably the best deal they were ever going to get.

I remember reading some trade proposals for Phaneuf a while back, and I kept telling people they're crazy to think they'll get the types of returns they were posting, but they just didn't seem to understand the position they are in by the media crucifying these players, combined with making it publicly known they want to burn the whole thing down and start new (and the limited NMC they gave these guys). Any trade for Phaneuf will likely be just as underwhelming for all the same reasons.

 

[Damisoph]

Yes, I'm sure they could have easily leveraged PIT to give up more but decided not to, out of inexperience. Sweet flying ****

 

[Damisoph]

I wonder when it will sink in for Leaf fans that Kessel is not worth as much as they think. We're not building fantasy teams here.

For some, never. I had posted the talks for Kessel should have started with Pouliot and the 2016 first rounder or move on. Obviously there were no teams to move on to. I highly doubt Calgary or Nashville got past the kicking tires phase.

 

[GoonieFace]

Im pretty sure everybody on this planet that is doing a job at some point was doing that job for the first time without any experience. This "experience" thing is such nonsense, so called "experienced" GM's are handcuffing their teams on a yearly basis only to pay out their mistakes at a later date.

 

[Joey Hoser]

I like how fans from their couchs and computers think its so obvious that we got fleeced because of inexperienced management.

Like, if only you and your experience were there to tell them they should get more.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Kessel was:

1) An elite offensive player
2) With one of the most lacking games in the league outside that dimension.
3) Who had a long-term $8M contract. That's not wrong, but it's incredibly hard to move.
4) Who had a list of 8 times he'd accept trade to, of which 6 couldn't get him.
5) With reported character issues, which true or not will affect how eager teams are to trade for him.
6) Who was just coming off a terrible season.

Looking back, there were clear warning signs:

1) Reports of little to no interest.
2) Reports that Pens were the only team with an offer.
3) Reports that the offer was only Pouliot + Scuderi + Kunitz.
4) Two cap dumps who refused to come to Toronto.
5) Reports that Leafs had to promise retention to actually get any interest.

They had to move him because:

1) Keeping him in a rebuild scenario made little sense due to age structure.
2) With normal regression and progression, in 5 years the return could likely be of more use than Kessel.
3) It can be argued that moving Kessel was vital to get a culture change.
4) It can be argued that the culture change was vital to really rebuild.
5) There were plenty of signs that none in the Leafs management and coaching wanted him back.
6) Pens set a deadline for today, or they'd go looking for alternatives elsewhere. It was this or nothing, and nothing was apparently not an option.

Labeling him a marquee player and ending the evaluation there makes no sense. It should be obvious to any level-headed poster with no particular agenda that the context of the trade made a good haul impossible.

Was it possible to get a better trade? Sure. Maybe even likely. But the foundation would still be the same. Taking everything into account, we were never going to get a fair deal.

He was not as highly rated as we thought, he was almost impossible to move and the negotiation situation was hopelessly stacked against us.

Just something to have in mind when judging management in this.

 

[deletethis]

At least no NHL GM is going to be wary of talking trades with Dubas.

 

[Peasy]

Like does anyone truly think a GM like Sather, or Murray, or anyone agreeing to trade Kessel, then allowing the first round pick in return to be lottery protected. OR SEND A PICK BACK?

Thats my only point. I get that we didn't get Pouliot. I can understand.

But when management allows for things like sending back high picks, and lottery protection, you know somewhere along the line we either got played, or management simply didn't care

Well if that was the case then Phil Kessel would still be a Maple Leaf. Can you understand that?

 

[BayStreetBully]

Was the trade on the low end? Perhaps. But our hands were tied from the contract length and NTC, and it was within the acceptable range, so I am fine with it.

This is what management needs to do in the future:

1) Stop giving out 8 year deals.

2) Stop giving out NTCs and stick to that as a matter of policy. If absolutely necessary to retain a superstar like Kessel, then give him 10 teams he won't a accept a trade to as a matter of courtesy. Then leave management the chance to trade with 20 teams. Dealing with 8 teams is way too low, and almost as bad as a complete NTC.

We should be happy with the acceptable return, and move on. We didn't give him away at the trade deadline or draft (which is what other GMs would have aimed for), and we didn't hold onto the 28 year old for too long and let him depreciate.

 

[ACC1224]

Hire Burke back plz

Imagine the riches he would have pulled in for Kessel.

 

[The Legend]

Burke - who was so experienced - didn't think to put protections on the draft picks that we gave to Boston for Kessel in the first place.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Burke - who was so experienced - didn't think to put protections on the draft picks that we gave to Boston for Kessel in the first place.

yeeeeup. pretty much

 

[BayStreetBully]

Burke - who was so experienced - didn't think to put protections on the draft picks that we gave to Boston for Kessel in the first place.

In fact, it's because of Burke's blunder that every GM nowadays seems to protect their pick. Call it the Burke Protection.

 

[Semantics]

They almost got burned on the Perron deal (now I wouldn't have given up a 1st rounder for Perron but that's just me).

I just realized that traded ended up being Perron for Barzal.

I don't know how you draft Crosby and Malkin and end up as a one cup wonder, no matter what one thinks of the Kessel trade that organization is seriously screwed up. Then again they also drafted Staal ahead of Toews, and a goalie #1 overall (*that* was the year they should have taken a Staal), so maybe they're lucky to even get that one cup.

 

[gabeliscious]

people can ***** all they want but at the end of the day shanny/dubas got the best possible return they could.

kessel + $1.2 million in cap retention + late 2nd + a player picked up off waiver + a bust brought back a late 1st, a recent 1st round pick with top 6 upside, a recent 2nd round pick who is a defensive defenseman, a 3rd, and a bottom 6 center with heart.

for all of kessel's elite offense, he came with;

1. limited ntc
2. huge contract - 7 more years @ 8 million (6.8 with retention)
3. questionable character
4. questionable conditioning
5. questionable work ethic

$6.8 million in cap space + removing a huge distraction from locker room is also a significant thing. it might not be ascertainable but it is still valuable nonetheless.

 

[Semantics]

I have no problem dealing Phil. What I do have a problem with is the return, timing, and non creativity[b/] with this deal perhaps a better more experienced GM could have pulled off.

Dubas needs to use shrooms so he can be as creative as Tim Murry and turn this septic tank spill into an abstract art masterpiece.

 

[Jerkini]

Hire Burke back plz

At least Dave Nonis. This guy spent weeks in Nashville talking trade and he got exactly what he wanted for Cody Franson. There's no way he would caved to Jim Rutherford.

 

[Jerkini]

people can ***** all they want but at the end of the day shanny/dubas got the best possible return they could.

kessel + $1.2 million in cap retention + late 2nd + a player picked up off waiver + a bust brought back a late 1st, a recent 1st round pick with top 6 upside, a recent 2nd round pick who is a defensive defenseman, a 3rd, and a bottom 6 center with heart.

for all of kessel's elite offense, he came with;

1. limited ntc
2. huge contract - 7 more years @ 8 million (6.8 with retention)
3. questionable character
4. questionable conditioning
5. questionable work ethic

$6.8 million in cap space + removing a huge distraction from locker room is also a significant thing. it might not be ascertainable but it is still valuable nonetheless.

I find it hard to believe Rutherford wouldn't have pulled the trigger without a draft pick going his way and lottery protection. Giving those things up screams inexperience. I could have stomached the return just fine. It's what we gave up in addition to Kessel that warrants criticism.

 

[tokyoite]

Pat Quinn was the best GM

 

[colchar]

Two experienced GMs put us in this position in the first place.

Very true.


/thread

 

[Semantics]

Imagine the riches he would have pulled in for Kessel.

Thing is, Burke would have never signed Kessel to that contract. Burke refused to do anything longer than five years, and he was against NTCs. He may have had to compromise a little on those principles, but he wouldn't have let Kessel's agent bend him over like Nonis did. So he'd have had a far more tradeable asset.