Proposal: Trade thread #66

[Runner77]

Hall is a depreciated asset and won’t cost more than a 2nd IMO

Is he depreciated or is he worth whatever they'll get for him?

If anybody watches Sabre games, is this truly representative of Hall's play?

 

[Miller Time]

Is he depreciated or is he worth whatever they'll get for him?

If anybody watches Sabre games, is this truly representative of Hall's play?

frankly, that video makes me bullish rather than skittish on going after Hall... more high quality chances created by speed and stickhandling in that one montage than we've seen from our left side combined this season lol.

guy looks snakebitten rather than done. change of scenery could be just what he needs to stop gripping so tight and start finishing...

 

[L4br3cqu3]

I had referenced a tweet on the subject, not long ago:



TRANSLATION: Alain Crête on RDS, said this about Jonathan Drouin: "The Habs apparently tried to trade him on several occasions and couldn't find a taker across the league."

What is the best option with Drouin now?

Fell asleep on the couch watching the game, woke up when the game was finished just to listen to guys from L'Antichambre (which I never listen to, too many 'mononc' on the show), but I happened to hear Alain Crete and I don't remember who else just point the finger toward Drouin for his bad play and that he didn't deserve his icetime (something like that), twas funny cause it somehow cause some kind of weird tension, as if it wasn't supposed to happen, but I guess the trend will go on cause he definitely is a culprit, I mean he, again, doesn't do shit anymore, he's just 'there'.

 

[Miller Time]

Drouin has negative value now.

Flames fans are hoping to use Gaudreau in a package to get Eichel, if he has to go. But last week most didn't want him gone. They want tunnel vision monahan gone.

MB's been trying to trade Drouin for a couple years now. I doubt he gets a 7th round pick in this flat cap era. No one wants a soft turnover machine that kills more plays than he creates for 5.5M against the cap for 2 more years.

re. Drouin... perhaps. Not so sure he'd actually be viewed as "negative" value... 26, a solid bet for ~.6ppg as a playmaking winger for 2 more years at 5.5M? not ideal, but also not a massive overpayment, specially for a team that would still have a big need for playmaking top-6 skill if Gaudreau gets dealt.

re. Gaudreau's value... flame fan dreams of turning him into an ppg type young player equivalent to johnny hockey's best year, while he's got a 6.75M cap hit next year, coming of his two least productive seasons since his rookie year, seem out of touch.

Him and Monahan will be moved if Treliving finds the deal he's looking for... 1st/Fleury/vet-cap strikes me as a decemt starting point. If not Drouin, some other cap $ will need to be a part of it to balance the expense.

 

[Runner77]

frankly, that video makes me bullish rather than skittish on going after Hall... more high quality chances created by speed and stickhandling in that one montage than we've seen from our left side combined this season lol.

guy looks snakebitten rather than done. change of scenery could be just what he needs to stop gripping so tight and start finishing...

Hall would not exactly be going to a less stressful environment if he were traded in Montreal. Why would he stop gripping his stick any less. I don't know what to make of this version of Hall but the Sabres are asking for a first round pick plus. Begs the question of what the opportunity cost would be on the market if the Habs were to float a similar package to that currently demanded by the Sabres.

 

[Runner77]

Fell asleep on the couch watching the game, woke up when the game was finished just to listen to guys from L'Antichambre (which I never listen to, too many 'mononc' on the show), but I happened to hear Alain Crete and I don't remember who else just point the finger toward Drouin for his bad play and that he didn't deserve his icetime (something like that), twas funny cause it somehow cause some kind of weird tension, as if it wasn't supposed to happen, but I guess the trend will go on cause he definitely is a culprit, I mean he, again, doesn't do shit anymore, he's just 'there'.

I'm with you about AC. I can't take Mario Tremblay and several other bland raconteurs who mostly offer anecdotes and generalities as a form of "analysis."

Problem is, Tremblay and his ilk, I suspect, have a lot of influence when it comes to casual fans. I would much prefer to see more bright young minds like Bruno Gervais, but he'd have to displace those "mononc" and I don't know that's likely to happen soon.

The highlight tonight on AC was on how Damphousse got on Drouin's case. Gaston did initially as well but diluted his criticism the more he went on.

 

[Archijerej]

I had referenced a tweet on the subject, not long ago:



TRANSLATION: Alain Crête on RDS, said this about Jonathan Drouin: "The Habs apparently tried to trade him on several occasions and couldn't find a taker across the league."

What is the best option with Drouin now?

It depends. I think we can put to bed the notion that he's going to be an impact forward for this team.

With the cap situation getting tight we can simply decide he doesn't bring enough for the money invested and dump him at a (significant) loss. But what then? We can re-sign Tatar, but that would be another fat contract to a 30+ year old player. We will have to somehow replace Drouin, unless we want Lehkonen as our best LW. This would require trading assets that are best used for a LD.

We may be stuck with him, hoping for the best. On the other hand, Bergevin has been able to extract good value in this kind of situations. Maybe he could pull off a Galchenyuk.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

I'd do Drouin and a 1st. But I think the Sabres are going to somehow look to do a quick turnaround, so they won't want Drouin's contract, along with th Okposo and Skinner contracts, on their books for 2 more years. I think they're delusional and it's clear they need a full rebuild. But I think that's their thinking.

Tatar-Gallagher
Toffoli-Anderson
Hall-Caufield

Would be a nice set of top 9 wingers going forward.

I don't think the plan for Caufield is to play for Montreal this season. Rockets are doing great , he's gonna be in the playoffs there and perhaps join habs if he's doing great if Habs are not eliminated or Rocket are not playing in my opinion

 

[angusyoung]

No I meant Tom Hoffman, the accountant

That was my second guess!

 

[Runner77]

It depends. I think we can put to bed the notion that he's going to be an impact forward for this team.

With the cap situation getting tight we can simply decide he doesn't bring enough for the money invested and dump him at a (significant) loss. But what then? We can re-sign Tatar, but that would be another fat contract to a 30+ year old player. We will have to somehow replace Drouin, unless we want Lehkonen as our best LW. This would require trading assets that are best used for a LD.

We may be stuck with him, hoping for the best. On the other hand, Bergevin has been able to extract good value in this kind of situations. Maybe he could pull off a Galchenyuk.

We’re so thin on LW while we have several right hand shooters who are in shorter supply on the market.

Given the expansion draft, are we better off making a significant move after the expansion draft? Unless there is a way to acquire a non-expansion draft eligible premium asset now by overpaying.

 

[Archijerej]

We’re so thin on LW while we have several right hand shooters who are in shorter supply on the market.

Given the expansion draft, are we better off making a significant move after the expansion draft? Unless there is a way to acquire a non-expansion draft eligible premium asset now by overpaying.

I think the moves will be made after the expansion draft.

As I see it, Drouin situation, while irritating, is not the highest priority and should not divert resourses needed to address the other areas of need.

First an foremost, we have to re-evaluate our defence. Where are we at with Weber? Are his struggles the result of this years' schedule, or is it what we're gonna be seeing from now on?

My half-assed statistical analysis revelead that his 5 on 5 results in terms of goals against per minutes played actually improved compared to last season. They are also slightly better than Petrys' (of course, the latter also creates a lot more offense). Weber's better in that regard than some of the household names around the league. The point I'm trying to make is that, despite clearly struggling, he's not a liability playing the minutes he's playing.

On the penalty kill the problems are surely coaching related. This should be an area of Webers' game least affected by age.

All that said, we have to operate under the assumption that he no longer can carry whomever we see fit to plant next to him. He needs a mobile puck mover, who can eat serious minutes, hold his own defensively in hard matchups and replace Weber on the powerplay when the time comes. This is a #1 priority and it will require some serious assets that shouldn't be spent on peripheral issues, like replacing Drouin. It's even more important if we realize that we have no guarantee how long is Petry going to be able to perform at his current level.

 

[Runner77]

I think the moves will be made after the expansion draft.

As I see it, Drouin situation, while irritating, is not the highest priority and should not divert resourses needed to address the other areas of need.

First an foremost, we have to re-evaluate our defence. Where are we at with Weber? Are his struggles the result of this years' schedule, or is it what we're gonna be seeing from now on?

My half-assed statistical analysis revelead that his 5 on 5 results in terms of goals against per minutes played actually improved compared to last season. They are also slightly better than Petrys' (of course, the latter also creates a lot more offense). Weber's better in that regard than some of the household names around the league. The point I'm trying to make is that, despite clearly struggling, he's not a liability playing the minutes he's playing.

On the penalty kill the problems are surely coaching related. This should be an area of Webers' game least affected by age.

All that said, we have to operate under the assumption that he no longer can carry whomever we see fit to plant next to him. He needs a mobile puck mover, who can eat serious minutes, hold his own defensively in hard matchups and replace Weber on the powerplay when the time comes. This is a #1 priority and it will require some serious assets that shouldn't be spent on peripheral issues, like replacing Drouin. It's even more important if we realize that we have no guarantee how long is Petry going to be able to perform at his current level.

What does it say that MB has failed to replace Markov as the team’s last viable first pairing LD? Sure, they drafted Sergachev but they deemed him disposable, conceivably cause they either valued the assets they already had or thought they could replace him by other means. The fact the this key position has remained unresolved for several years now, is more an indictment of Bergevin than it is of Weber’s struggles.

You’re right about re-assessing the D-corps. The question is whether they’ll once again allow it to be reshaped by the guy who created its shortcomings to begin with.

 

[morhilane]

Why isn’t Chariot on LTIR? Can’t they put him on retroactively?Between the two wouldn’t that clear enough space to acquire pretty much who we want? Especially since Lehkonen or Byron will also be included in a trade...

Chariot is coming back before the season is over. When you put someone in LTIR you need to keep the player cap space available for when they return if it is during the season. In other words, putting Chariot on LTIR doesn't actually free cap space.

They did it with Gallagher because he won't return until the playoff where cap space doesn't matter.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Chariot is coming back before the season is over. When you put someone in LTIR you need to keep the player cap space available for when they return if it is during the season. In other words, putting Chariot on LTIR doesn't actually free cap space.

They did it with Gallagher because he won't return until the playoff where cap space doesn't matter.

I think it's deeper than that but not sure. Don't you get prorated cap savings for how long they are on LTIR (daily calculator)? There may be some other issues at play that's over our heads... as to the reason why Chiarot was not on LTIR.

Think of this situation... Someone goes down at the beginning of the year and is out until the last month and comes back. There is no way that you get nailed for the full cap hit. I've come to the conclusion that there are other factors at play that we are not aware of.

 

[26Mats]

I don't think the plan for Caufield is to play for Montreal this season. Rockets are doing great , he's gonna be in the playoffs there and perhaps join habs if he's doing great if Habs are not eliminated or Rocket are not playing in my opinion

I still think the priority will be MTL. If he shows he can help, he'll be called up.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I still think the priority will be MTL. If he shows he can help, he'll be called up.

I think they go day by day. That's the priority

 

[Archijerej]

What does it say that MB has failed to replace Markov as the team’s last viable first pairing LD?

Easier said than done, but yes. It's clearly a major unresolved issue.

Sure, they drafted Sergachev but they deemed him disposable, conceivably cause they either valued the assets they already had or thought they could replace him by other means. The fact the this key position has remained unresolved for several years now, is more an indictment of Bergevin than it is of Weber’s struggles.

I think they've seen Sergachev as too flawed of a player to be a first pairing defenceman. On the other hand, they surely hoped Drouin could not only contribute immediately, but be an impact forward in the future as well. They misjudged Drouins' potential.

Also, I believe they've seen Weber as a player of sufficient quality to make his own pairing and carry basically anyone. Something like Hedman. They were not entirely wrong imo, but that's clearly no longer the case.

You’re right about re-assessing the D-corps. The question is whether they’ll once again allow it to be reshaped by the guy who created its shortcomings to begin with.

Let's not get into this. It is what it is. He has shown the ability to improve. If he's staying past this season, we may as well wish him to succeed.

 

[26Mats]

re. Drouin... perhaps. Not so sure he'd actually be viewed as "negative" value... 26, a solid bet for ~.6ppg as a playmaking winger for 2 more years at 5.5M? not ideal, but also not a massive overpayment, specially for a team that would still have a big need for playmaking top-6 skill if Gaudreau gets dealt.

re. Gaudreau's value... flame fan dreams of turning him into an ppg type young player equivalent to johnny hockey's best year, while he's got a 6.75M cap hit next year, coming of his two least productive seasons since his rookie year, seem out of touch.

Him and Monahan will be moved if Treliving finds the deal he's looking for... 1st/Fleury/vet-cap strikes me as a decemt starting point. If not Drouin, some other cap $ will need to be a part of it to balance the expense.

A 1st, Fleury, vet cap is only a starting point in the sense that you haven't included the main piece in the deal. Would you trade Gaudreau for a package that included as it's best piece a non-lottery 1st in a reportedly weak draft?

Re: Drouin, at this point I'd move him for free. We could use that cap space for better things. I can't think of a team that would rather have him at 5.5M than the cap space to amuse elsewhere. Can you?

 

[salbutera]

Just throwing this out there, Mantha’s been scratched a few games lately and it’s just not working out in Det.

I could see a Mantha for Drouin swap in the works this summer, if season ends poorly for Drouin

 

[Runner77]

Easier said than done, but yes. It's clearly a major unresolved issue.

Easier said than done, if you only look at the years since Markov. However, when Bergevin was hired, he had on his hands, an aging first pairing LD -- he did not address the need. When you haven't prepared a successor to an aging player and you still don't have one ready 8 years later, it's beyond being "easier said". It's a fatal miscalculation and grievous error in judgment.

I think they've seen Sergachev as too flawed of a player to be a first pairing defenceman. On the other hand, they surely hoped Drouin could not only contribute immediately, but be an impact forward in the future as well. They misjudged Drouins' potential.

Also, I believe they've seen Weber as a player of sufficient quality to make his own pairing and carry basically anyone. Something like Hedman. They were not entirely wrong imo, but that's clearly no longer the case.

I mentioned Sergachev only since he was arguably, the next best option in the 8 years of Bergevin's tenure -- Sergachev playing with Weber would have been better than the Alzners and Metes who were auditioned as 1st pairing LDs. He would have been an acceptable stopgap until something better would have come along that would have relegated Sergachev to a 2nd pairing role.

Weber was almost 4 years older than Subban at the time of the trade. Subban was also a PMD, which was a profile much more in demand across the league than a shutdown D. Bergevin chose to go against the grain and has done so in several other instances, favoring older players with a pedigree and intangibles, over younger high level talents. He's also gifted long term contracts to bottom players that are easily available in every off season. This type of approach has handcuffed him and artificially curtailed his cap room.

Let's not get into this. It is what it is. He has shown the ability to improve. If he's staying past this season, we may as well wish him to succeed.

I won't get into it more than to say that "improve" is a relative term. It also says nothing about what type of increment is at play. Technically, a .0001% improvement is still an improvement. I would say that Bergevin's forte has been an ability to prevail on most of his trades in, in particular in the last 2-3 years. Where he has not shown any improvement in my view, is roster building. What we've found out is that it does little to win trades if you can't turn around and roster the right pieces at the right time. And that timing issue is all the more volatile when MB came out and asserted that he doesn't believe in windows. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Just throwing this out there, Mantha’s been scratched a few games lately and it’s just not working out in Det.

I could see a Mantha for Drouin swap in the works this summer, if season ends poorly for Drouin

I doubt Yzerman wants Drouin after those drama in Tampa especially when he can get a multitude of offers from other teams.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Just throwing this out there, Mantha’s been scratched a few games lately and it’s just not working out in Det.

I could see a Mantha for Drouin swap in the works this summer, if season ends poorly for Drouin

Yzerman is not a moron

 

[Archijerej]

When you haven't prepared a successor to an aging player and you still don't have one ready 8 years later, it's beyond being "easier said". It's a fatal miscalculation and grievous error in judgment.

I think it's a bit more complicated. In a salary cap world teams are rarely build according to some abstract blueprint. You often don't have a first pairing LD and a first pairing RD playing together. Our defence is built around Weber and Petry, playing on separate pairings. The trick is to find the right complementary players for those two. Bergevin failed to do so initially (Alzner, Schlemko, rookie Mete etc.), but then got better (Chiarot, Edmundson, Kulak). Some of the fault lies in over valuing the internal options (Beaulieu, Mete). I agree that the most important need, that of a mobile top-3 minute eater for Weber, has remained unresolved.

I mentioned Sergachev only since he was arguably, the next best option in the 8 years of Bergevin's tenure -- Sergachev playing with Weber would have been better than the Alzners and Metes who were auditioned as 1st pairing LDs. He would have been an acceptable stopgap until something better would have come along that would have relegated Sergachev to a 2nd pairing role.

Fair enough. That one would sting a lot less, if we indeed had gotten an impact forward in return. But a mistake's a mistake, no matter the thought process.

Weber was almost 4 years older than Subban at the time of the trade. Subban was also a PMD, which was a profile much more in demand across the league than a shutdown D. Bergevin chose to go against the grain and has done so in several other instances, favoring older players with a pedigree and intangibles, over younger high level talents.

In the Weber vs. Subban debate I'm firmly on Webers' side, but let's not open this can of worms.

He's also gifted long term contracts to bottom players that are easily available in every off season. This type of approach has handcuffed him and artificially curtailed his cap room.

Honestly, I don't see anything particularly egregious on this front. It happens all the time around the league. In my opinion managing the cap has been actually one of strongest suits. Caveat: if Price gets his shit together.

I would say that Bergevin's forte has been an ability to prevail on most of his trades in, in particular in the last 2-3 years. Where he has not shown any improvement in my view, is roster building. What we've found out is that it does little to win trades if you can't turn around and roster the right pieces at the right time. And that timing issue is all the more volatile when MB came out and asserted that he doesn't believe in windows. I'll just leave it at that.

This is the main point of critisism against Bergevin and I fully agree. It what separates an average GM from a good one. My only hope is that he has learned.

 

[Pacciosoftie]

Easier said than done, if you only look at the years since Markov. However, when Bergevin was hired, he had on his hands, an aging first pairing LD -- he did not address the need. When you haven't prepared a successor to an aging player and you still don't have one ready 8 years later, it's beyond being "easier said". It's a fatal miscalculation and grievous error in judgment.



I mentioned Sergachev only since he was arguably, the next best option in the 8 years of Bergevin's tenure -- Sergachev playing with Weber would have been better than the Alzners and Metes who were auditioned as 1st pairing LDs. He would have been an acceptable stopgap until something better would have come along that would have relegated Sergachev to a 2nd pairing role.

Weber was almost 4 years older than Subban at the time of the trade. Subban was also a PMD, which was a profile much more in demand across the league than a shutdown D. Bergevin chose to go against the grain and has done so in several other instances, favoring older players with a pedigree and intangibles, over younger high level talents. He's also gifted long term contracts to bottom players that are easily available in every off season. This type of approach has handcuffed him and artificially curtailed his cap room.




I won't get into it more than to say that "improve" is a relative term. It also says nothing about what type of increment is at play. Technically, a .0001% improvement is still an improvement. I would say that Bergevin's forte has been an ability to prevail on most of his trades in, in particular in the last 2-3 years. Where he has not shown any improvement in my view, is roster building. What we've found out is that it does little to win trades if you can't turn around and roster the right pieces at the right time. And that timing issue is all the more volatile when MB came out and asserted that he doesn't believe in windows. I'll just leave it at that.

Does he at least believe in doors? Wouldn't want him to get hit by the door on his way out.

 

[Runner77]

I think it's a bit more complicated. In a salary cap world teams are rarely build according to some abstract blueprint. You often don't have a first pairing LD and a first pairing RD playing together. Our defence is built around Weber and Petry, playing on separate pairings. The trick is to find the right complementary players for those two. Bergevin failed to do so initially (Alzner, Schlemko, rookie Mete etc.), but then got better (Chiarot, Edmundson, Kulak). Some of the fault lies in over valuing the internal options (Beaulieu, Mete). I agree that the most important need, that of a mobile top-3 minute eater for Weber, has remained unresolved.

Better than Alzner etc but the Chiarot tier still doesn't translate into a first pairing D. It's still falling short. I think we agree.

In the Weber vs. Subban debate I'm firmly on Webers' side, but let's not open this can of worms.

I'm in the camp of whatever other offers he turned down for Subban. I recognize that Subban wasn't a fit but it appears from what we've heard since, that MB turned down a better offer than Weber.

Honestly, I don't see anything particularly egregious on this front. It happens all the time around the league. In my opinion managing the cap has been actually one of strongest suits. Caveat: if Price gets his shit together.

I think there is no value in granting excess term to 4th line players. Byron is proving that mistake. We've seen him do it with Weal and others over his tenure and all of those extensions have limited his options now that he's spent to the cap max this off season.

This is the main point of critisism against Bergevin and I fully agree. It what separates an average GM from a good one. My only hope is that he has learned.

I'd love to give him the benefit of the doubt however, some of his shortcomings are still present and are impacting roster construction. I expected a better learning curve after 8 plus more years. I too hope for better days. I have nothing against the guy personally -- it's a results-oriented business and I expect positive results from someone granted so much latitude and resources.