Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread 48

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Not taking it personally and I'm not the one who went on attack mode. Nothing more to say from either one of us at this stage but by all means... keep going. The funny part is your actions when I defend my opinion and now you say I'm taking it personally. . Attack me harder now cause how dare I question you on something eh?

You're lost in your ramblings and conflations.

Still playing the victim, not realizing that your way of arguing leads to people not having an ounce of respect for your childish ways.

It's funny how you're running away from my arguments and once again, try to make it about something else, so you'll think you haven't loss face.

Once again, no acknowledgement of the arguments whatsoever. Extremely childish.

 

[CHfan1]

If the Habs somehow get Lafrenière, the Habs should build around their young core and look at the start of a cup contending window in 3-4 years when Laf is more near his peak.

They should not try and force trades to win now. I don’t see a Price/Weber window (with them as the best pieces on the Habs roster). There isn’t much they can do right now to compete with Boston and Tampa Bay. But in a few years if they built around Laf, Kotkaniemi, Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Primeau they could have the makings of something great.

 

[Lebowski]

My point is that LA is in much worse shape than we are (but more advanced in their rebuild, before the #2 overall).

But I agree, I wouldn't make a trade going for a cup because we add Laf in the short term. Actually would sell Weber and Price faster...as I actually think that the real problem with Price/Weber has nothing to do with age/performance but it has everything to do with age/performance/cost vs. the cap. We are paying 2 players past their primes, prime salaries in an environment where the cap will stay fixed the next 3 years. Trade them asap while they have a bit more value, and rebuild the distribution to the cap from the ground up around Lafreniere.

I think Weber’s cap-hit is fine considering his performance. As for Price, while he hasn’t performed at a 10,5M level as of late, I do think he still has the talent and ability to do so. To me, he’s still a top 3 goalie in the league at worst.

And at the end of the day, it’s not like we’re up against the cap. I don’t know how much value we could expect out of them in a trade scenario unless we were willing to retain a significant amount of money for a long time, which begs the question, why do it? I think they can be good mentors for the bunch of young guys we have coming up, and they can still contribute for a few years still.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You're lost in your ramblings and conflations.

Still playing the victim, not realizing that your way of arguing leads to people not having an ounce of respect for your childish ways.

It's funny how you're running away from my arguments and once again, try to make it about something else, so you'll think you haven't loss face.

Once again, no acknowledgement of the arguments whatsoever. Extremely childish.

More "How dare you question me, So I'm going to try to make you look bad now" posting. Time to move on now bud. It's a disagreement, relax

 

[Lebowski]

Fair but if they did make that trade... you going to hate it?

Vets: Price, Weber, Kopitar, Gallagher, Petry, Tatar
Youth: Lafreniere, Domi, Drouin, Suzuki, Romanov

Call me a minority but I would not wait to make moves if we got Lafreniere and I would consider using some of our futures for a proven piece like Kopitar... even if it's 33-36.

I guess it depends on how you feel about Kotka’s potential but personally, not a fan. Let alone adding another potential lottery pick on top of it.

I think you overvalue Laf’s short term impact on the team. I don’t expect him to be a 1st line player from day one. There’s a risk your older core will be done by the time he becomes a first line forward.

Not worth the risk, in my opinion. I’d rather move older guys to build around Laf long term than going all in short term.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

More "How dare you question me, So I'm going to try to make you look bad now" posting. Time to move on now bud. It's a disagreement, relax

You're again spinning reality.

You yet again refused to acknowledge my arguments. It is childish. Deal with it.

And that phrase you put in my mouth is entirely wrong.

You just cannot accept when you are wrong. Proof is in the pudding, you responded mere moments after I responded with a lenghty post filled with direct arguments to what we were debating and instead of tackling them, you try to paint it as something else.

Im pretty relax and I read people's entire posts before responding, unlike childish posters who run away from a debate because they can't handle being wrong.

 

[LaP]

1) I would trade for a center like Kopitar if we got Lafreniere

2) Weber not in decline. Not to the level you are trying to say.

Have a nice day.

1) I would definitely not do that. This trade has Iginla for Nieuwendyk written all over it. Only difference is we are not in a position to win like Dallas were even after adding Kopitar. Kopitar/Weber/Price is no different than Kopitar/Doughty/Quick and the rest of our team just plain sucks.

[edit] I thought you were saying to trade Laf for Kopitar but from the other replies you were not. It depends on the pieces we have to move for Kopitar but yeah while keeping Laf adding Kopitar could be a good move.

2) He already has declined a bit. Anyone who think he's as good as 6-7 years ago is living in la la land. Since when players declined from 100% to 50% in a single season? It's going to be a slow decline and he'll remain good for a while but he's not a top 1st dman anymore. He'll soon be in the 20th territory which means most teams will have a better number 1 than him.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I guess it depends on how you feel about Kotka’s potential but personally, not a fan. Let alone adding another potential lottery pick on top of it.

I think you overvalue Laf’s short term impact on the team. I don’t expect him to be a 1st line player from day one. There’s a risk your older core will be done by the time he becomes a first line forward.

Not worth the risk, in my opinion. I’d rather move older guys to build around Laf long term than going all in short term.

I like Kotkaniemi a lot but do I think he will be as good as Barkov or Kopitar? Doubt it but it's possible. Lafreniere without a center like Kopitar will struggle yes. With a center like Kopitar and the Habs rolling 3 lines? I think we would be dangerous. I posted how it would look with Kopitar, Brodin, and Kovalchuk and without Domi, Kotkaniemi, 2021 1st. I would be very happy with that roster starting next season.

If we get Lafreniere and we play him with the centers we have today, I think we will have a hard time sheltering him and he will struggle to some degree. I bet you the narrative will be... Bergevin was dumb not to get a center who can shelter him

 

[Habs Halifax]

1) I would definitely not do that. This trade has Iginla for Nieuwendyk written all over it. Only difference is we are not in a position to win like Dallas were even after adding Kopitar. Kopitar/Weber/Price is no different than Kopitar/Doughty/Quick and the rest of our team just plain sucks.

2) He already has declined a bit. Anyone who think he's as good as 6-7 years ago is living in la la land. Since when players declined from 100% to 50% in a single season? It's going to be a slow decline and he'll remain good for a while but he's not a top 1st dman anymore. He'll soon be in the 20th territory which means most teams will have a better number 1 than him.

1) Fair concern. I've acknowledged that as well but I am not worried about Kopitar from 33-36 based on getting him for $7M and the role he would play for us. A big skating Center with offensive talent who can shelter Lafreniere is what we would need. If not Kopitar, make a move for someone else in that type

2) Disagree on Weber declining. He has never been an elite level skater and the issues you see today exists when he was in his prime. Health is more a question mark vs decline

 

[SOLR]

25 year olds are not vets. But regardless, that's not the point. The point is the age demographics would be well balanced and we would be built to win for the now and even the future after Weber.

I'm not a fan of this 100% rebuild when you got guys like Price, Weber, Gallagher, Petry, Tatar, Danault. So many fans are ignoring them waiting for the next core. I rather have both a mix of vets and youth

The age doesn't matter, how many years of experience? Drouin is a vet. He's older than KK, Domi, Poehling, Mete, Lekhonen, Ylonen, Brooks, Primeau, etc. (soon most of the team).

 

[Lebowski]

I like Kotkaniemi a lot but do I think he will be as good as Barkov or Kopitar? Doubt it but it's possible. Lafreniere without a center like Kopitar will struggle yes. With a center like Kopitar and the Habs rolling 3 lines? I think we would be dangerous. I posted how it would look with Kopitar, Brodin, and Kovalchuk and without Domi, Kotkaniemi, 2021 1st. I would be very happy with that roster starting next season.

If we get Lafreniere and we play him with the centers we have today, I think we will have a hard time sheltering him and he will struggle to some degree. I bet you the narrative will be... Bergevin was dumb not to get a center who can shelter him

Even if you value Kotka as a future 2nd line center, trading him would still make it very hard to replace him in the long term. Big, offensive minded centers aren’t a readily obtainable commodity on the trade market.

As for Laf needing to be sheltered, he’s the type of prospect that shouldn’t have to be sheltered. The kind to make a seamless transition to the NHL and become a leader sooner than later. That’s if he’s what people say he is. Veterans around the room are still important, but we already have plenty of those.

That line-up looks good on paper, but I just don’t like the risk/reward ratio of going all in at this stage. Too many unknowns.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Even if you value Kotka as a future 2nd line center, trading him would still make it very hard to replace him in the long term. Big, offensive minded centers aren’t a readily obtainable commodity on the trade market.

As for Laf needing to be sheltered, he’s the type of prospect that shouldn’t have to be sheltered. The kind to make a seamless transition to the NHL and become a leader sooner than later. That’s if he’s what people day he is. Veterans around the room are still important, but we already have plenty of those.

That line-up looks good on paper, but I just don’t like the risk/reward ratio of going all in at this stage. Too many unknowns.

I get the long term potential but expecting us to replace Price and Weber? Sabres having a hard time with both Eichel and Dahlin and no answers in sight. I think we need to be careful with looking at the 3-5+ years only.

I'd be very happy with the on paper line-up. It would be in tack for several years too.. except for Kovalchuk but he is the bridge to Caufield

 

[CHfan1]

I like Kotkaniemi a lot but do I think he will be as good as Barkov or Kopitar? Doubt it but it's possible. Lafreniere without a center like Kopitar will struggle yes. With a center like Kopitar and the Habs rolling 3 lines? I think we would be dangerous. I posted how it would look with Kopitar, Brodin, and Kovalchuk and without Domi, Kotkaniemi, 2021 1st. I would be very happy with that roster starting next season.

If we get Lafreniere and we play him with the centers we have today, I think we will have a hard time sheltering him and he will struggle to some degree. I bet you the narrative will be... Bergevin was dumb not to get a center who can shelter him

I still don’t think that roster is Cup contending and at best they are third in the Atlantic division.

Who do you think is a better player in 3-4 years, when Laf is more near his peak, Kopitar or Kotkaniemi?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I still don’t think that roster is Cup contending and at best they are third in the Atlantic division.

Who do you think is a better player in 3-4 years, when Laf is more near his peak, Kopitar or Kotkaniemi?

I don't think you can pencil in a point in the standings.

In 3-4 years?
- Weber is gone and who you replacing him with? Juulsen, Fluery, or Brook?
- Price is 35/36. Primeau will be a starter for sure right?
- Kopitar will be 36 and on his last year. Kotkaniemi will be what? 22/23. He could be a 1C, 2C, or 3C. Guess work. Pens and Bruins not worried about Crosby, Malkin, and Bergeron and I'm not worried about Kopitar for the next 4 years.

Sorry, I like our prospect pool a lot and you guys know this already. But no way I'm going to ignore our current core cause I think we will be better after Price and Weber are gone. My plan is to win with them and I do like that roster. It has balance, depth, and youth coming still.

You can act pessimistic or conservative and I get it. But if that was are roster heading into next year, I think you would like it. It would be the best roster in decades and you prefer to wait for 3 or 4 years? What happens if we are the next Sabres? You'd be pissed off we didn't add when Price/Weber was still with us.

 

[Lebowski]

I get the long term potential but expecting us to replace Price and Weber? Sabres having a hard time with both Eichel and Dahlin and no answers in sight. I think we need to be careful with looking at the 3-5+ years only.

I'd be very happy with the on paper line-up. It would be in tack for several years too.. except for Kovalchuk but he is the bridge to Caufield

I’m not saying we should be waiting 5 years before making a move, but at least waiting to see, in the scenario where we’d pick Laf:

- Just how good is he?
- Can Suzuki truly be a long term solution at center?
- Can Kotka regain confidence and develop into a top 6 player?
- What do we have exactly in Romanov and Primeau?
- Is Caufield likely to make an impact long term?
- How is the young core of Domi/Drouin/Mete developing and should they be key pieces going forward?

I think a lot of those question should be answered over the next season, and depending on those answers, I may be more willing to start gearing for a run a year or two from now.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I’m not saying we should be waiting 5 years before making a move, but at least waiting to see, in the scenario where we’d pick Laf:

- Just how good is he?
- Can Suzuki truly be a long term solution at center?
- Can Kotka regain confidence and develop into a top 6 player?
- What do we have exactly in Romanov and Primeau?
- Is Caufield likely to make an impact long term?
- How is the young core of Domi/Drouin/Mete developing and should they be key pieces going forward?

I think a lot of those question should be answered over the next season, and depending on those answers, I may be more willing to start gearing for a run a year or two from now.

Yeah but you are willing to wait to see and I would not. If we got Lafreniere, I would be very aggressive going after a center like Kopitar. I can respect you protecting the futures but lets not ignore Price and Weber while we still got them. Waiting a year or two is wasting two years of Weber

- Lafreniere with Kopitar would be a perfect shelter
- Suzuki with Kovalchuk is a good bridge for when Caufield is ready
- Keep the Danault line in tack
- Flip Domi for Brodin or someone similar

Yes, Kotkaniemi and a 2021 1st hurts but we would still in great shape for the now and the future. Waiting might be a mistake too is my point

 

[CHfan1]

I don't think you can pencil in a point in the standings.

In 3-4 years?
- Weber is gone and who you replacing him with? Juulsen, Fluery, or Brook?
- Price is 35/36. Primeau will be a starter for sure right?
- Kopitar will be 36 and on his last year. Kotkaniemi will be what? 22/23. He could be a 1C, 2C, or 3C. Guess work

Sorry, I like our prospect pool a lot and you guys know this already. But no way I'm going to ignore our current core cause I think we will be better after Price and Weber are gone. My plan is to win with them and I do like that roster. It has balance, depth, and youth coming still.

You can act pessimistic or conservative and I get it. But if that was are roster heading into next year, I think you would like it

The Habs were 12 and 13 wins behind Tampa and Boston this season. I don’t think I’m being pessimistic when I say I don’t see the Habs competing with them in the next 2-3 years. I don’t see any reason to force that, especially by trading players like Kotkaniemi (unless it’s for a player going into his prime not coming out of it)

The current core has not shown its good enough to even win a single playoff series let alone the Cup. Build around the young core and if Price and Weber are still good enough in a few years to be key pieces great.

 

[Lebowski]

Yeah but you are willing to wait to see and I would not. If we got Lafreniere, I would be very aggressive going after a center like Kopitar. I can respect you protecting the futures but lets not ignore Price and Weber while we still got them. Waiting a year or two is wasting two years of Weber

And by being too aggressive too early you’ll still waste two years of Weber (and Price, and Kopitar) while setting the franchise back another couple years by moving Kotka and a 1st round pick.

As I said, it’s a risk/reward thing.

In the eventuality that we’re going for it as soon as next year, it implies being a serious cup contender right away in order to not ‘’waste’’ years of the older core. I don’t see a serious cup contender in that roster. And with the amount of unknowns we have on the roster right now, there’s just nothing that justifies being that bullish this early in my opinion.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The Habs were 12 and 13 wins behind Tampa and Boston this season. I don’t think I’m being pessimistic when I say I don’t see the Habs competing with them in the next 2-3 years. I don’t see any reason to force that, especially by trading players like Kotkaniemi (unless it’s for a player going into his prime not coming out of it)

The current core has not shown its good enough to even win a single playoff series let alone the Cup. Build around the young core and if Price and Weber are still good enough in a few years to be key pieces great.

Circumstance and context would be completely different and each season is different. Don't care where we finished this past season.

This is all talk anyways... Getting Lafreniere and trading for Kopitar/Brodin and the roster I showed is me hitting the lottery in terms of all that happening. If we can only see what it would do and who was right and wrong?

If we get Lafreniere, I bet you the narrative will be we need to shelter him with a mature center who has skill. Wait for it

 

[Habs Halifax]

And by being too aggressive too early you’ll still waste two years of Weber (and Price, and Kopitar) while setting the franchise back another couple years by moving Kotka and a 1st round pick.

As I said, it’s a risk/reward thing.

In the eventuality that we’re going for it as soon as next year, it implies being a serious cup contender right away in order to not ‘’waste’’ years of the older core. I don’t see a serious cup contender in that roster. And with the amount of unknowns we have on the roster right now, there’s just nothing that justifies being that bullish this early in my opinion.

Remember this. Lets see what Kopitar and Kotkaniemi do in the next 4 years

 

[Lebowski]

Remember this. Lets see what Kopitar and Kotkaniemi do in the next 4 years

That’s not the question at hand though. The question is whether adding Kopitar turns us into a legit cup contender or not.

I’m not exactly offering to eat my shoe if Kotka doesn’t turn into a 1st line player.

 

[Habs Halifax]

That’s not the question at hand though. The question is whether adding Kopitar turns us into a legit cup contender or not.

I’m not exactly offering to eat my shoe if Kotka doesn’t turn into a 1st line player.

This is not a contender next season? Where are the holes? I see a great mix of vets and youth and Lots of depth for the now and future. I doubt the kids become better than this roster in 3/4+ years without Price and Weber

Lafreniere / Kopitar / Drouin
Tatar / Danault / Gallagher
Kovalchuk / Suzuki / Armia
Poehling / Evans / Byron
Lehkonen

Romanov / Weber
Brodin / Petry
Chiarot / Juulsen
Mete, Kulak

Price
Primeau

Caufield, Ylonen, Hillis, Fleury, Norlinder, Harris, Struble.

 

[CHfan1]

This is not a contender next season? Where are the holes? I see a great mix of vets and youth and Lots of depth for the now and future. I doubt the kids become better than this roster in 3/4+ years without Price and Weber

Lafreniere / Kopitar / Drouin
Tatar / Danault / Gallagher
Kovalchuk / Suzuki / Armia
Poehling / Evans / Byron
Lehkonen

Romanov / Weber
Brodin / Petry
Chiarot / Juulsen
Mete, Kulak

Price
Primeau

Caufield, Ylonen, Hillis, Fleury, Norlinder, Harris, Struble.

That roster still doesn’t compete with the best teams in the Eastern conference. They’ll fight with the Leafs for the third spot in the Atlantic division. And if there is any injuries, especially to the defence (Weber) they are in trouble.

And it just keeps them mediocre and in no mans land. As the young players on that roster (Laf, Suzuki, Romanov) get better the old vets decline (Price, Kopitar, Weber, Petry).

 

[Habs Halifax]

That roster still doesn’t compete with the best teams in the Eastern conference. They’ll fight with the Leafs for the third spot in the Atlantic division. And if there is any injuries, especially to the defence (Weber) they are in trouble.

And it just keeps them mediocre and in no mans land. As the young players on that roster (Laf, Suzuki, Romanov) get better the old vets decline (Price, Kopitar, Weber, Petry).

We don't agree on that. That roster is a cup contender and would get better in the 1-4 year window. We would not be in mediocre land... I think that is exaggeration cause you are trying to protect the future potential and you don't care about the vets.

If the Habs were to make moves like that (unlikely but lets say), our fan base would love that roster and you would too.

What do you think the probability is our team would be better than that roster I showed in 4+ years without Weber and Price lets say? I like our future potential but not going to lie... we could be stuck like the Sabres and Coyotes

 

[CHfan1]

We don't agree on that. That roster is a cup contender and would get better in the 1-4 year window. We would not be in mediocre land... I think that is exaggeration cause you are trying to protect the future potential and you don't care about the vets.

What do you think the probability is our team would be better than that roster I showed in 4+ years?

ok, convince me why that is roster better than Boston‘s and Tampa’s or even Toronto who’s young elite talent is still getting better. Why is that roster the #1 or #2 in the Atlantic or at worst the third best team in the Eastern Confernce?

I think in 4+ years they can be closer to a cup contender building around the young core than trying to force a window around Price/Weber. They haven’t won a single playoff series, adding Kopitar, an elite rookie in Laf who I don’t see being a huge difference maker in year one, doesn’t change that for me.