Speculation: Trade & Free Agency Talk XXXVII

[absolute garbage]

Tampa does have a hole on the right side of their defense, and they've been linked to multiple right shot defensemen in the past few years. It's also easy to see Dumba thriving with a guy like McDonagh. It would be a good fit positionally.

But yeah their value is different. I wonder if retaining a bit of Dumba's salary (say 2M) and adding some non-roster pieces (maybe the Penguins 1st rounder) would make it even. They paid a premium for Coleman at 1.8M, Dumba at 4M would be pretty nice too.

It would probably take another playoff disaster for them to pull off the trigger on something like that though.

 

[2Pair]

Dumba is a bad fit for Tampa because his greatest asset would be nullified by Stamkos already being the right handed trigger on their PP.

 

[57special]

Moving Point is just not an option for them. He and Cirelli aren't guys they would move, partly because of their contracts. They'd fall over themselves to move Gourde or Johnson, because of their contracts, age, and declining production.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Moving Point is just not an option for them. He and Cirelli aren't guys they would move, partly because of their contracts. They'd fall over themselves to move Gourde or Johnson, because of their contracts, age, and declining production.

$6.75m is such a bargain for Point. I do wonder if Cirelli’s contract demands, coupled with needing to sign Sergachev + at least two more D with about $5.3m total in cap space, would make him available for trade.

Does anyone know if Cal Foote is NHL ready for them? If not, they have no NHL top 4 RHD for next season.

I wonder if something like Point+Gourde for Dumba+Greenway+Pit 1st is something they would at least consider? The lineup fills out pretty nicely with that (aside from the 2nd line, which is just misfit toys strung together):

Kaprizov-Point-Fiala
Donato-Staal-Zuccarello
Parise-Eriksson Ek-Kunin
Foligno-Rask-Hartman

Suter-Spurgeon
Soucy-Brodin
Hunt-Pateryn (interchange with AHL guys)

Stalock
Kahkonen

If I’m TB, I don’t consider moving my bargain 1C though. There would be better offers than that.

 

[57special]

Point is not being moved for anything we have. TBL are a team built to contend now, not a rebuild team. Cirelli is nowhere near Point's level, as of now.

We can get Johnson or Gourde quite easily, I would guess, but I don't want Gourde's or Johnsons contract and declining production as the move into their 30's.

I don't see a fit. Zuccarello's contract screws us for taking on one of those players.

 

[AJ Thelen]

I hope Billy is on the phone with Dale as we speak.

 

[AKL]

I hope Billy is on the phone with Dale as we speak.

He’s almost 23 and he’s going back to Finland because he hasn’t been good in the AHL.

I’d throw them like a 4th or 5th round pick just one case he still has upside, but his stock has fallen hard.

 

[2Pair]

He’s almost 23 and he’s going back to Finland because he hasn’t been good in the AHL.

I’d throw them like a 4th or 5th round pick just one case he still has upside, but his stock has fallen hard.

He was a great player at Denver. Looking at his numbers I have to wonder if he just didn't "check out" on Florida last year after being sent to the AHL? PPG in the AHL and 20 points in 50 games in the NHL isn't a bad season at all for a 21 year old kid.

 

[AKL]

He was a great player at Denver. Looking at his numbers I have to wonder if he just didn't "check out" on Florida last year after being sent to the AHL? PPG in the AHL and 20 points in 50 games in the NHL isn't a bad season at all for a 21 year old kid.

Definitely a possibility, but I wouldn’t give much more until I was more confident that that’s the case. Maybe Guerin is more confident in that than I am, who knows.

 

[2Pair]

Definitely a possibility, but I wouldn’t give much more until I was more confident that that’s the case. Maybe Guerin is more confident in that than I am, who knows.

You're being pretty harsh on a very talented kid for having one bad year.

 

[AKL]

You're being pretty harsh on a very talented kid for having one bad year.

Well my question is precisely whether it's just one bad year or if it's an indication that he just won't cut it. You look at a player like Nail Yakupov as an example, who obviously impressed enough to be the 1st overall pick, albeit in a pretty weak class, but then his 19 year old/rookie season he put up 18 points in 22 KHL games and then 31 points in 48 NHL games, which would have paced for 29 goals and 53 points. Then he never came close to replication those numbers again, and was out of the league at 24.

I'm not trying to say he's a bust for certain, I'm not ruling out that he got frustrated with his situation in Florida and threw in the towel last year, although for a 22 year old with one pro season under his belt, that would raise other red flags; all I'm saying is I would be very selective about what I give up for him at this point until I'm more confident that he really can turn it around and become at least a serviceable middle 6 center in the NHL.

For the sake of furthering discussion, I'd be interested in seeing some proposals you'd throw at Florida this summer, either with Borgstrom as the centerpiece, or as part of a bigger deal with them, given that they seem intent on making some changes.

 

[2Pair]

Well my question is precisely whether it's just one bad year or if it's an indication that he just won't cut it. You look at a player like Nail Yakupov as an example, who obviously impressed enough to be the 1st overall pick, albeit in a pretty weak class, but then his 19 year old/rookie season he put up 18 points in 22 KHL games and then 31 points in 48 NHL games, which would have paced for 29 goals and 53 points. Then he never came close to replication those numbers again, and was out of the league at 24.

I'm not trying to say he's a bust for certain, I'm not ruling out that he got frustrated with his situation in Florida and threw in the towel last year, although for a 22 year old with one pro season under his belt, that would raise other red flags; all I'm saying is I would be very selective about what I give up for him at this point until I'm more confident that he really can turn it around and become at least a serviceable middle 6 center in the NHL.

For the sake of furthering discussion, I'd be interested in seeing some proposals you'd throw at Florida this summer, either with Borgstrom as the centerpiece, or as part of a bigger deal with them, given that they seem intent on making some changes.

Obviously the cheaper price you can get him for is all the better, but I would have zero problem with Guerin giving up the Pens 1st for Borgstrom. He's exactly the kind of player that the Wild need to be trying to acquire.

He very well might turn out like Yakupov, but that's 3-4 years down the line at this point. You're talking like he's already been trending in the wrong direction for years. For all anyone knows the kind may have been injured for all of last season?

 

[AKL]

Obviously the cheaper price you can get him for is all the better, but I would have zero problem with Guerin giving up the Pens 1st for Borgstrom. He's exactly the kind of player that the Wild need to be trying to acquire.

He very well might turn out like Yakupov, but that's 3-4 years down the line at this point. You're talking like he's already been trending in the wrong direction for years. For all anyone knows the kind may have been injured for all of last season?

Sorry, I didn't intend for that to be how it came out. Obviously I don't know how his career will play out and you could very well be right.

That 1st would be a steep price. I would hope Guerin would at least wait until around the 20th pick of the draft to see who's available before he moves that pick. I don't know a whole lot about the guys who will/should be available then, and how they would compare to Borgstrom. I know that we don't often have multiple 1sts, and yet every year as the draft happens, we're always wishing we had an extra late 1st for a guy who fell further than expected. I would love to actually have that flexibility this year.

I'd also be interested in seeing which other player of that ilk would be available for that 1st too. I don't have complete faith in Guerin's ability as a GM yet, although his one trade was a good one in my eyes, so I would give him the benefit of the doubt.

As an aside, I also wonder how you think he compares to Eriksson Ek. Ek is about half a year older than Borgstrom, and has done just as well in the AHL offensively, is a better defensive center, has had more success now in the NHL, has shown more promise in international play. Ek is, by most evidence available, the better player. Would you be comfortable giving up that 1st for Ek if we didn't have him? I know you've openly disliked him in the past. If not, what makes Borgstrom different apart from two relatively great years at Denver? Zacha is another player in that age group who I would say has more value than Borgstrom, but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving up that 1st for.

 

[2Pair]

Sorry, I didn't intend for that to be how it came out. Obviously I don't know how his career will play out and you could very well be right.

That 1st would be a steep price. I would hope Guerin would at least wait until around the 20th pick of the draft to see who's available before he moves that pick. I don't know a whole lot about the guys who will/should be available then, and how they would compare to Borgstrom. I know that we don't often have multiple 1sts, and yet every year as the draft happens, we're always wishing we had an extra late 1st for a guy who fell further than expected. I would love to actually have that flexibility this year.

I'd also be interested in seeing which other player of that ilk would be available for that 1st too. I don't have complete faith in Guerin's ability as a GM yet, although his one trade was a good one in my eyes, so I would give him the benefit of the doubt.

As an aside, I also wonder how you think he compares to Eriksson Ek. Ek is about half a year older than Borgstrom, and has done just as well in the AHL offensively, is a better defensive center, has had more success now in the NHL, has shown more promise in international play. Ek is, by most evidence available, the better player. Would you be comfortable giving up that 1st for Ek if we didn't have him? I know you've openly disliked him in the past. If not, what makes Borgstrom different apart from two relatively great years at Denver? Zacha is another player in that age group who I would say has more value than Borgstrom, but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving up that 1st for.

Agree with your top 3 paragraphs, although that's the kind of info that we as fans will never really know. Obviously nobody would be happy with paying a 1st if we knew that a 2nd woyud've gotten it done. None of it makes any sense if Guerin and company don't see him as a guy that has a good chance to be a top 6 center. My thinking is more along the lines of it being time for Guerin to make something happen at the center position. If there's a better/cheaper version than Borgstrom? Then I'm all for it. The one thing he can't do is just continue to "wait for a better deal" They're way too far down the road for anymore of that bullshit.

As for the Ek and Zacha comparisons? I would take Borgstrom ahead of both of those players based solely on my opinion. If Guerin traded the Pens 1st for Zacha I would probably feel the same as if he did it for Borgstrom. I would wonder if it was a smart deal and then hope for the best.

 

[AJ Thelen]

A lot of good arguments here.

From my personal standpoint i just feel like Borgström is the exact kind of center we should gamble on acquiring, since splashing a lot of cash in the offseason or overpaying for a proven center is out of the question.

There is a Nino-vibe to all of this, and i want us to be a part of it.

 

[2Pair]

A lot of good arguments here.

From my personal standpoint i just feel like Borgström is the exact kind of center we should gamble on acquiring, since splashing a lot of cash in the offseason or overpaying for a proven center is out of the question.

There is a Nino-vibe to all of this, and i want us to be a part of it.

Niederreiter is a great example of what can happen to a young kid in a horseshit organization.

 

[thestonedkoala]

There is a Nino-vibe to all of this, and i want us to be a part of it.

Nino was also a top 5 pick and never really panned out here or in Carolina. His struggle for consistency was maddening and he declined pretty quickly.

 

[Minnesnota]

I'm convinced the Islanders f***ed Nino's development up. We see it time and time again where players who are drafted high but aren't developed properly are just written off as "well they couldn't cut it in the NHL" or are "busts". While that's true for a handful of players, I find it hard to believe that the majority of these well scouted players just couldn't "figure it out" at the NHL level.

Maybe I'm naive.

 

[2Pair]

I'm convinced the Islanders f***ed Nino's development up. We see it time and time again where players who are drafted high but aren't developed properly are just written off as "well they couldn't cut it in the NHL" or are "busts". While that's true for a handful of players, I find it hard to believe that the majority of these well scouted players just couldn't "figure it out" at the NHL level.

Maybe I'm naive.

I couldn't agree more. I believe that the development is every bit as important as the drafting. There's a reason certain teams seem to have a higher number of "busts" just like there seem to be a few teams that always get "lucky" with their picks.

 

[Minnesnota]

I couldn't agree more. I believe that the development is every bit as important as the drafting. There's a reason certain teams seem to have a higher number of "busts" just like there seem to be a few teams that always get "lucky" with their picks.

Florida's pretty shit at developing players. That, or they're just incompetent. Either way they suck.

Borgstrom was considered by a lot of people to be a "can't miss" NHL prospect who showed he can a physical North American style of hockey as he lit it up with Denver. He gets drafted and just fizzles out. How the f*** does that happen?

To further my point about Florida not being able to develop players: Aleksi Heponiemi. This guy is a diamond in the rough. Drafted in the 2nd round back in 2017, he put up 118pts in his D+1 year in the CHL goes to Finland to play for Karpat in Liiga and finishes 2nd on the team in points, comes back to NA, has a good camp, only to get sent down to the AHL where he's buried on the 4th line for "reasons".

You'd think for a team that gave Barkov a couple years to develop in the NHL they would want to do the same with guys who are obviously uber-talented. It seems like with them trying to make the playoffs and be a profitable team they're neglecting their asset development.

I'd offer up Eriksson-Ek for Borgstrom heads up.

 

[2Pair]

Florida's pretty shit at developing players. That, or they're just incompetent. Either way they suck.

Borgstrom was considered by a lot of people to be a "can't miss" NHL prospect who showed he can a physical North American style of hockey as he lit it up with Denver. He gets drafted and just fizzles out. How the f*** does that happen?

To further my point about Florida not being able to develop players: Aleksi Heponiemi. This guy is a diamond in the rough. Drafted in the 2nd round back in 2017, he put up 118pts in his D+1 year in the CHL goes to Finland to play for Karpat in Liiga and finishes 2nd on the team in points, comes back to NA, has a good camp, only to get sent down to the AHL where he's buried on the 4th line for "reasons".

You'd think for a team that gave Barkov a couple years to develop in the NHL they would want to do the same with guys who are obviously uber-talented. It seems like with them trying to make the playoffs and be a profitable team they're neglecting their asset development.

I'd offer up Eriksson-Ek for Borgstrom heads up.

I would prefer to keep Ek and find a different way to get Borgstrom. If it was Ek or no deal? I think I would make that deal but it isn't a no-brainer for me.

 

[KaprizovEntitlelist]

Florida's pretty shit at developing players. That, or they're just incompetent. Either way they suck.

Borgstrom was considered by a lot of people to be a "can't miss" NHL prospect who showed he can a physical North American style of hockey as he lit it up with Denver. He gets drafted and just fizzles out. How the f*** does that happen?

To further my point about Florida not being able to develop players: Aleksi Heponiemi. This guy is a diamond in the rough. Drafted in the 2nd round back in 2017, he put up 118pts in his D+1 year in the CHL goes to Finland to play for Karpat in Liiga and finishes 2nd on the team in points, comes back to NA, has a good camp, only to get sent down to the AHL where he's buried on the 4th line for "reasons".

You'd think for a team that gave Barkov a couple years to develop in the NHL they would want to do the same with guys who are obviously uber-talented. It seems like with them trying to make the playoffs and be a profitable team they're neglecting their asset development.

I'd offer up Eriksson-Ek for Borgstrom heads up.

Are you serious about this? A good young player in Ek who grew this season & was becoming good for Bergstrom who isn't a true c & hasn't done anything in NHL ? No thanks

 

[thestonedkoala]

I'm convinced the Islanders f***ed Nino's development up. We see it time and time again where players who are drafted high but aren't developed properly are just written off as "well they couldn't cut it in the NHL" or are "busts". While that's true for a handful of players, I find it hard to believe that the majority of these well scouted players just couldn't "figure it out" at the NHL level.

Maybe I'm naive.

The Isles did make a mess with el Nino's development, but that doesn't account for how bad he has been with the Hurricanes and for half his career with the Wild. This isn't an all or not thing. Isles didn't help el Nino, but el Nino probably didn't help himself either.

There is also some questions Borgstrom's commitment to play defense as well.

 

[2Pair]

Niederreiter was good in Minnesota. Give him a competent coach and who knows what he could've become.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Niederreiter was good in Minnesota. Give him a competent coach and who knows what he could've become.

You're calling Bruce Boudreau incompetent?

El Nino never broke 60 points, had a couple of 20 goal seasons and is the very definition of a journeyman player. He's also playing now on a pretty loaded Carolina team and has struggled.