Speculation: Trade & Free Agency Talk XXXIV

[Dr Jan Itor]

Swapping Zucker and Trocheck is a lateral move, doesn't do much. Now you're just giving away Brodin.

 

[AKL]

Swapping Zucker and Trocheck is a lateral move, doesn't do much. Now you're just giving away Brodin.

There was a + attached to Trochek.
There’s also the little detail where you’re swapping one of the many expendable wingers we have going forward for a 26 year old top 6 center, which we have none of going forward.
It’s far from a “lateral move”

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

There was a + attached to Trochek.
There’s also the little detail where you’re swapping one of the many expendable wingers we have going forward for a 26 year old top 6 center, which we have none of going forward.
It’s far from a “lateral move”

I saw the plus, not sure what expendable assets Florida has that would make it matter.

Then trade the lesser expendable wingers and keep the best one we have. Brodin+Zucker and Brodin+Eriksson Ek are vastly different deals.

The Florida fan in main board thread even said that Florida is good on the wings and would need a placeholder for Trocheck's spot in the middle. That ain't Zucker.

 

[2Pair]

Brodin and Ek for Trocheck is a no-brainer for Guerin

 

[thestonedkoala]

Brodin and Ek for Trocheck is a no-brainer for Guerin

No it isn't; there is questions if Trocheck is going to trend back up (he's on pace for 16 goals this season). As well, losing Brodin hurts the depth of our defense (Soucy has been playing well, but remember when we lost Scandella and the defense had issues with depth). Not to mention how hard it's been for the Wild to get some decent checking line players. That was one of the biggest issues for Minnesota since Brodziak left and why Fletcher brought in Hanzel.

 

[2Pair]

No it isn't; there is questions if Trocheck is going to trend back up (he's on pace for 16 goals this season). As well, losing Brodin hurts the depth of our defense (Soucy has been playing well, but remember when we lost Scandella and the defense had issues with depth). Not to mention how hard it's been for the Wild to get some decent checking line players. That was one of the biggest issues for Minnesota since Brodziak left and why Fletcher brought in Hanzel.

The biggest issue for the Wild since they became the Wild was having top 6 centers. Trocheck is a 26 year old center that is on pace for nearly 60 points during a "struggling" year. That's simply worth more than Brodin and Ek.

Talking about it being hard to find grinders is just nonsense.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

No it isn't; there is questions if Trocheck is going to trend back up (he's on pace for 16 goals this season). As well, losing Brodin hurts the depth of our defense (Soucy has been playing well, but remember when we lost Scandella and the defense had issues with depth). Not to mention how hard it's been for the Wild to get some decent checking line players. That was one of the biggest issues for Minnesota since Brodziak left and why Fletcher brought in Hanzel.

Ignoring his outlier season, Trocheck is pacing his normal production of 50-60 points per 82 games. Goals are down, but assists are up. He's also improving after a slow start (3 goals and 8 points in his last 10 games vs. 1 goal and 6 points in his first 10).

And the problem with losing Scandella wasn't losing him, it was what we got back. Trocheck > Foligno + Ennis.

This would also solve our biggest expansion draft quandary, on both the forward and defense side, though it leaves Soucy wide open to be picked, which I'm not a big fan of right now.

 

[thestonedkoala]

The biggest issue for the Wild since they became the Wild was having top 6 centers.

Since the Wild became the Wild having any type of center has been an issue.

Trocheck is a 26 year old center that is on pace for nearly 60 points during a "struggling" year. That's simply worth more than Brodin and Ek.

In a vacuum, yes. Would you trade Brodin and Ek for Jared McCann? Rickard Rakell? Jonathan Drouin? Ryan Strome? Charlie Coyle?

Talking about it being hard to find grinders is just nonsense.

Good grinders are hard to get. That's why the Wild traded for Hanzel. Also why the Wild had so many 3rd/4th line players. Stewart, Mitchell, Konopka, Rupp, Powe, Cooke, Carter, Veilleux, Fontaine, Mitchell - because you know they are so easy to find.

 

[2Pair]

Since the Wild became the Wild having any type of center has been an issue.



In a vacuum, yes. Would you trade Brodin and Ek for Jared McCann? Rickard Rakell? Jonathan Drouin? Ryan Strome? Charlie Coyle?



Good grinders are hard to get. That's why the Wild traded for Hanzel. Also why the Wild had so many 3rd/4th line players. Stewart, Mitchell, Konopka, Rupp, Powe, Cooke, Carter, Veilleux, Fontaine, Mitchell - because you know they are so easy to find.

That might be the worst list of comparables I have ever seen. What are you possibly trying to say with the list of McCann, Rakell, Drouin, Strome, and Coyle?

The bit about grinders is just more nonsense.

 

[Bazeek]

The Wild actually have quite a few centers: Staal, Koivu, Eriksson-Ek, Rask and Sturm with Kunin able to move over in a pinch. Not sure which of the prospects currently playing center actually project as centers in the NHL, or project into the NHL at all, but there are quite a few of them.

I really don't think center depth is a worry right now, it's the top end that needs a solution. It's not impossible, but it's unduly optimistic to think that any of Ek, Rask or Sturm have 2C upside at this point. You can't ignore that kind of organizational hole because it might disrupt chemistry in the bottom-6.

 

[fentonsbrainchild]

If we made a move for Trocheck I would be absolutely thrilled. Complaining about losing a bottom 6 player as part of evening out the value is ridiculous. If he’s even available BG should explore it extensively

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Drouin isn't a center.

McCann and Strome might be having good seasons, but have none of the production equity that Trocheck does.

Coyle's only 50+ point season happened on the wing.

Rakell? Yeah, I'd definitely consider it, though his face-off numbers don't really scream "center" the last few years. He's a great player though.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

No it isn't; there is questions if Trocheck is going to trend back up (he's on pace for 16 goals this season). As well, losing Brodin hurts the depth of our defense (Soucy has been playing well, but remember when we lost Scandella and the defense had issues with depth). Not to mention how hard it's been for the Wild to get some decent checking line players. That was one of the biggest issues for Minnesota since Brodziak left and why Fletcher brought in Hanzel.

Trocheck is absolutely worth that

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

Trocheck is a slam dunk IMO. We’re talking about a 26yo, right shot center who has scored 30 before. If he can pace for 60 points playing on the 2nd powerplay(that doesn’t get on the ice much in Florida) and playing with Brett Connolly and Malgin even strength, I’d call that a pretty good player. These are precisely the trades that we always pass up and then people are annoyed that we didn’t look into it. This is a guy who could easily turn into a 1B center type that puts up 70 points a year and people are freaking out about the prospect of losing our 4th best defensman and a grinder shooting at 2.5%.

 

[dBoon]

He's probably a slam-dunk for the Panthers as well.


Nanne was quite complimentary of him on the air last night.

 

[fentonsbrainchild]

Trocheck is a slam dunk IMO. We’re talking about a 26yo, right shot center who has scored 30 before. If he can pace for 60 points playing on the 2nd powerplay(that doesn’t get on the ice much in Florida) and playing with Brett Connolly and Malgin even strength, I’d call that a pretty good player. These are precisely the trades that we always pass up and then people are annoyed that we didn’t look into it. This is a guy who could easily turn into a 1B center type that puts up 70 points a year and people are freaking out about the prospect of losing our 4th best defensman and a grinder shooting at 2.5%.

The problem is I’d be shocked if he’s even available

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

The problem is I’d be shocked if he’s even available

That’s not my point. Nobody has any idea if he’s available or not. My point was more that fans keep drooling looking for a top 6 C, and then when someone proposes a deal for one we lose our minds. Looking at the O’rielly trade, we could’ve easily turned nino and our 1st into o’rielly, and nobody wanted to to it because it was way to much to pay for a “50 point center”. Instead we turned those pieces into Filip Johansson and Viktor Rask

 

[57special]

I sure wasn't part of the "we" that turned Nino and a 1st into FJo and Rask.

 

[Bazeek]

6 months ago people wanted to undo the Fiala/Granlund trade. Looking at Rask and Nino this year...

Nino Niederreiter (LW)
$5.25m for 2.5 years
3G - 7A - 10P in 28 games (0.36 ppg)
57.66 xGF% (4th on the team)
15:25 avg TOI


Victor Rask (C)
$4.0m for 2.5 years
2G - 3A - 5P in 18 games (0.28 ppg)
61.77 xGF% (1st on the team)
9:47 avg TOI

Juuuust sayin'.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Nobody has any idea if he’s available or not. My point was more that fans keep drooling looking for a top 6 C, and then when someone proposes a deal for one we lose our minds.

Looking at the O’rielly trade, we could’ve easily turned nino and our 1st into o’rielly, and nobody wanted to to it because it was way to much to pay for a “50 point center”. Instead we turned those pieces into Filip Johansson and Viktor Rask

For every Ryan O'Reilly, you have a Ryan Johansen. I remember, what was it? Brodin + el Nino for Johansen? And Johansen hasn't exactly done wonders for Nashville - so much so, that they went out and grabbed Duchene, because Johansen has struggled. Furthermore, we look at trades in a vacuum. Right now, we have Koivu and Spurgeon out. Moving Brodin and Eriksson-Ek at the moment wouldn't be smart. Finally, the depth of this team really plays a factor.

Look at what Buffalo got for Ryan O'Reilly; Patrik Berglund, Vladimir Sobotka, Tage Thompson and a 1st round and a 2nd round pick.

Berglund quit hockey, Sobotka was a 30+ year old depth player and Tage Thompson was a decent prospect, but not something that the Blues could do without.

Look at what Matt Duchene returned at the deadline; a conditional 1st in 2019, 2020, Abramov and Davidsson. Yes, Duchene was a rental, but meh.

I'd be more than willing to trade Brodin OR Eriksson-Ek for Trocheck along with some other combination of prospects/players.

Honestly, I'd trade Brodin + Hartman/Foligno + someone like Boudrias/Firstov/Giroux + conditional 1st in 2020 + 2nd in 2021 for Trocheck.

Trading Eriksson-Ek also creates a bigger problem in the future; Staal and Koivu only have so many years, so we trade Eriksson-Ek and...? in 2022, we'd be looking for another Eriksson-Ek as Koivu and Staal are gone.

 

[Bazeek]

For every Ryan O'Reilly, you have a Ryan Johansen. I remember, what was it? Brodin + el Nino for Johansen? And Johansen hasn't exactly done wonders for Nashville - so much so, that they went out and grabbed Duchene, because Johansen has struggled. Furthermore, we look at trades in a vacuum. Right now, we have Koivu and Spurgeon out. Moving Brodin and Eriksson-Ek at the moment wouldn't be smart. Finally, the depth of this team really plays a factor.

Look at what Buffalo got for Ryan O'Reilly; Patrik Berglund, Vladimir Sobotka, Tage Thompson and a 1st round and a 2nd round pick.

Berglund quit hockey, Sobotka was a 30+ year old depth player and Tage Thompson was a decent prospect, but not something that the Blues could do without.

Look at what Matt Duchene returned at the deadline; a conditional 1st in 2019, 2020, Abramov and Davidsson. Yes, Duchene was a rental, but meh.

I'd be more than willing to trade Brodin OR Eriksson-Ek for Trocheck along with some other combination of prospects/players.

Honestly, I'd trade Brodin + Hartman/Foligno + someone like Boudrias/Firstov/Giroux + conditional 1st in 2020 + 2nd in 2021 for Trocheck.

Trading Eriksson-Ek also creates a bigger problem in the future; Staal and Koivu only have so many years, so we trade Eriksson-Ek and...? in 2022, we'd be looking for another Eriksson-Ek as Koivu and Staal are gone.

Trading a center for a center doesn't somehow create a hole at center. If this specific idea makes a hole anywhere it's at LD. Again, running down the centers currently in the system:

Top-6
Staal
Koivu

Bottom-6
Eriksson-Ek
Rask

Option-in-case-of-injuries
Kunin

Pro Prospects
Sturm
Anas (?)
Dewar (?)

Amateur Prospects
Khovanov
Hentges
Beckman
McBain (?)

We have a problem in 2022 regardless. The bigger problem is the one in 2020-21 where Eriksson-Ek is our 2C behind Eric Staal. If we can get an established 2C in their mid-20's for less than Brodin + Ek by all means, let's do that, but I don't understand drawing a line in the sand on these guys.

I suspect that the crux of this whole disagreement is whether or not Eriksson-Ek has the potential to fill that 2C hole going forward. That's something that some fans seem to see in him but, for the life of me, I don't. I wouldn't be disappointed to be proven wrong, though.

 

[thestonedkoala]

I suspect that the crux of this whole disagreement is whether or not Eriksson-Ek has the potential to fill that 2C hole going forward. That's something that some fans seem to see in him but, for the life of me, I don't. I wouldn't be disappointed to be proven wrong, though.

The crux of the disagreement isn't if Eriksson-Ek has the potential to fill in the 2C, but having an elite shutdown center for post Koivu. Fletcher didn't trade for Hanzel for his scoring prowess, he got him to pair up with Koivu to help shutdown opposing teams. Fletcher had problems filling the bottom 6 (regardless of what 2Pair has said). Eriksson-Ek is finally turning the corner and if he can become an elite shutdown center, that would solve Minnesota's issues for a while there. As for Kunin, why don't we move him and keep him at center? It'd solve two issues with one player. One, another center. Two, removes a winger.

Finally, there are some centers that are going to hit the free agent market that could be interesting options; Ryan Nugent Hopkins, Vladislav Namestnikov (though he's been moved to wing it appears), and even Brassard in a pinch. Trocheck had one good season and possibly another good season this season, but we'll see.

 

[Bazeek]

The crux of the disagreement isn't if Eriksson-Ek has the potential to fill in the 2C, but having an elite shutdown center for post Koivu. Fletcher didn't trade for Hanzel for his scoring prowess, he got him to pair up with Koivu to help shutdown opposing teams. Fletcher had problems filling the bottom 6 (regardless of what 2Pair has said). Eriksson-Ek is finally turning the corner and if he can become an elite shutdown center, that would solve Minnesota's issues for a while there. As for Kunin, why don't we move him and keep him at center? It'd solve two issues with one player. One, another center. Two, removes a winger.

Finally, there are some centers that are going to hit the free agent market that could be interesting options; Ryan Nugent Hopkins, Vladislav Namestnikov (though he's been moved to wing it appears), and even Brassard in a pinch. Trocheck had one good season and possibly another good season this season, but we'll see.

Kunin at center is an option, I just don't think it's a very good one personally.

Free agency is also an option, but I'm skeptical that it's better than pursuing a trade.

2020
Backstrom (probably not happening)
Nugent-Hopkins (seems 50/50, but won't be cheap)
Koivu (I'd love him back as a 3C behind a younger 2C)
Pageau (see RNH)
Haula
Eakin
Brassard
Gagner

2021
Getzlaf
Krecji
Stastny
Stepan
Bozak
Anisimov
Bjugstad
Bonino

The number of guys on that list that'll be under 30 and able to play in the top-6 isn't high. The ones that do meet that criteria are going to be expensive, especially relative to Trocheck's $4.75m*.

Regardless of whether or not filling the bottom-6 is easy, it will always be easier than filling the top-6. And while Ek is doing alright in a defensive role this year, I think superlatives like "elite" are pretty far over the horizon.

*It's probably worth reiterating that I don't think Trocheck is a realistic option, he's just a name to use as an example here. If there's some crucial flaw I'm missing with him specifically so be it, but the broader point remains the same.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Kunin at center is an option, I just don't think it's a very good one personally.

Fair enough.

Free agency is also an option, but I'm skeptical that it's better than pursuing a trade.

I think an offseason trade might be the best option. But free agency can be used as a top gap.

Regardless of whether or not filling the bottom-6 is easy, it will always be easier than filling the top-6. And while Ek is doing alright in a defensive role this year, I think superlatives like "elite" are pretty far over the horizon.

That's debatable on filling the bottom 6 is easy. I mean in truth, we ended up getting two top 6 wingers in Donato and Fiala. Both of them struggle to play defense, but can push the offense.

Ek is doing well as a shutdown center, and I guess elite is pretty far, but if he continues I don't think it'd be that far off. He's shutdown some impressive players so far this season. Plus being an agitator is a plus.

*It's probably worth reiterating that I don't think Trocheck is a realistic option, he's just a name to use as an example here. If there's some crucial flaw I'm missing with him specifically so be it, but the broader point remains the same.

I think the reason is that he's the biggest chip Florida can use to upgrade their team without losing something significant. I also think they are hedging their bets that he won't have a 70+ season agaon. Maybe 50-60, which is still pretty good.

Also I must comment that since you became mod, Bazeek, you have done a really, really good being neutral.

 

[57special]

I just don't love Trocheks game, and love Brodin's, but if we are going to do that deal then I would send Kunin or a prospect before I send Ek, even though I hate to lose a RHS.

Ek has turned a corner so the game no longer looks too fast for him. I expect some really good play from him over the next 5 years, at least. Greenway is a bit behind him in development, but he is another one that has an exciting future.

I see less upside for Kunin. Maybe a slight hope that he will turn into a RHS 20 g scorer?