Speculation: Trade & Free Agency Talk XXXIV

[nt3005]

If he's putting up ~60 points on a shutdown line, I'd be intrigued by what he could do on the #1 offensive line with Kaprizov/Fiala.

If 15 goals and 54 pts being a shutdown center is enough then people would quit complaining about Koivu.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

Nothing about Ryjo makes me want to acquire him now. I don't see him pushing this team any further. His major role on the Nashville team that went to the cup was a shut down line.

He’s definitely slightly overpaid, but he’s put up really good season before and Nashville isn’t exactly drowning in offensive talent to support him. He did lead Nashville to the finals as a 1C, so I think if there’s a deal to be made we absolutely look into it.

 

[AKL]

If 15 goals and 54 pts being a shutdown center is enough then people would quit complaining about Koivu.

I don't think many were complaining about Koivu as the 2C when he was put up 58 points behind Staal in 2016-17. But then he put up 45 points. Last year he was on pace for 49 in 82. This year he's pacing at 35 in 82. It's clear that he's not a 15 goal, 55 point player anymore, and he's likely done after the season anyway.

The issue with Koivu during those years was not with Koivu, but that he was playing 1C and was our best center by far, when he's always been suited better for a 2C role behind a real 1C. You still need that player. Going forward, we don't have that player. If Staal retires after next season, we have zero top 6 centers in this organization. Trading for Johansen (or, as I originally said, a Johansen type player) would at least give us one.

 

[Webster]

So you think Zucker could be traded. I'll keep an eye on Kunin, he works hard but doesn't produce that much. Tonight he'll get a chance on the 2nd line, he should use it well.

 

[AKL]

So you think Zucker could be traded. I'll keep an eye on Kunin, he works hard but doesn't produce that much. Tonight he'll get a chance on the 2nd line, he should use it well.

I think anyone apart from Parise and Zuccarello could get traded.

I think we shouldn't trade Fiala because the return we'd get likely wouldn't be worth it, though he should still be moved if it is. Put another way, if the ask for a top 6 center is Fiala, we should be taking a long, hard look at who the center we're getting back is.

Kunin, Greenway, Donato, Zucker should all be the same level of available. That is to say, very available for that top 6 center. If the ask is one of these guys, you don't need to take as long or hard of a look as you would with Fiala.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

So you think Zucker could be traded. I'll keep an eye on Kunin, he works hard but doesn't produce that much. Tonight he'll get a chance on the 2nd line, he should use it well.

He’s on pace for 18 goals with no powerplay time and he just turned 22. At that age, Zucker was still a .5ppg player in the AHL and Zuccarello was playing in the 4th best league in the world. Not to say I wouldn’t move him, but it would have to be in a deal for a top 6 C

 

[nt3005]

He’s definitely slightly overpaid, but he’s put up really good season before and Nashville isn’t exactly drowning in offensive talent to support him. He did lead Nashville to the finals as a 1C, so I think if there’s a deal to be made we absolutely look into it.

The idea of just slotting him in is good because he is arguably our best C. But is the opportunity cost worth bringing him in? Is he a play driver? Or does he need to have a ton of talent around him?

 

[nt3005]

I don't think many were complaining about Koivu as the 2C when he was put up 58 points behind Staal in 2016-17. But then he put up 45 points. Last year he was on pace for 49 in 82. This year he's pacing at 35 in 82. It's clear that he's not a 15 goal, 55 point player anymore, and he's likely done after the season anyway.

The issue with Koivu during those years was not with Koivu, but that he was playing 1C and was our best center by far, when he's always been suited better for a 2C role behind a real 1C. You still need that player. Going forward, we don't have that player. If Staal retires after next season, we have zero top 6 centers in this organization. Trading for Johansen (or, as I originally said, a Johansen type player) would at least give us one.

The problem is if that scenario plays out we still have a 50 Pt. 1C. Who isn't as good defensively.

 

[AKL]

The problem is if that scenario plays out we still have a 50 Pt. 1C. Who isn't as good defensively.

Yeah, but again, the problem isn’t that player, it’s the lack of the other players. I’d rather have one 50-60 point center than none, how about you?

The idea of just slotting him in is good because he is arguably our best C. But is the opportunity cost worth bringing him in? Is he a play driver? Or does he need to have a ton of talent around him?

If the opportunity cost is something like Zucker and Donato? Yeah it’s worth it. Neither of them are play drivers either, and we have an abundance of wingers both on the roster and in the system.

 

[nt3005]

Yeah, but again, the problem isn’t that player, it’s the lack of the other players. I’d rather have one 50-60 point center than none, how about you?



If the opportunity cost is something like Zucker and Donato? Yeah it’s worth it. Neither of them are play drivers either, and we have an abundance of wingers both on the roster and in the system.

Earlier you said people were happy with Koivu as a 50 pt 2 c. Now we are gonna be happy with a 50 pt 1c?

No chance Zucker + Donato gets us the center we want. But yeah if thats all it takes make the deal immediately.

 

[AKL]

Earlier you said people were happy with Koivu as a 50 pt 2 c. Now we are gonna be happy with a 50 pt 1c?

No chance Zucker + Donato gets us the center we want. But yeah if thats all it takes make the deal immediately.

If we don’t get that center soon, we’re going to have a 30 point 1C. That’s the point. It’s not that we’re going to stop trying to get better centers and just be happy if we get one player like Johansen, it’s that if we don’t get one of those types of players, Eriksson Ek and Rask are going to be our top 6 centers in 2021.

 

[57special]

To get the sort of C that will make us truly happy we will have to part with Dumba and a player like Greenway, plus a 1st... Hell, Staal has been a top 30 C the past three years, and that isn't good enough for most of us.

The top tier C's just aren't available, or they are old.

Getting a C who scores 55 points while getting prime PP TOI is nice, but not a big deal, especially if they are mediocre defensively (like Staal). Hell Suter and Spurgeon are getting close to that.

At one point i was prepared to trade Brodin+ for Mittelstadt- that's how desperate I was. Pretty glad that trade didn't go down. Casey has some talent, and is still young, but not a chance I do that trade now. Brodin was a legit top 4 dman at 19yo...at this point CM is a question mark.

We need draft choices, and luck...the sort of luck that got us Spurgeon for nothing.

 

[Jesus comma Brodin]

To get the sort of C that will make us truly happy we will have to part with Dumba and a player like Greenway, plus a 1st... Hell, Staal has been a top 30 C the past three years, and that isn't good enough for most of us.

The top tier C's just aren't available, or they are old.

Getting a C who scores 55 points while getting prime PP TOI is nice, but not a big deal, especially if they are mediocre defensively (like Staal). Hell Suter and Spurgeon are getting close to that.

At one point i was prepared to trade Brodin+ for Mittelstadt- that's how desperate I was. Pretty glad that trade didn't go down. Casey has some talent, and is still young, but not a chance I do that trade now. Brodin was a legit top 4 dman at 19yo...at this point CM is a question mark.

We need draft choices, and luck...the sort of luck that got us Spurgeon for nothing.

 

[57special]

 

[Nsjohnson]

I'll say this, our recent long points streak has some guys playing and looking really good. At the trade deadline, the GM can always point to this point in the season and being 'that player's real game' and sell high.


If you know, we aren't in it enough to be active sellers at the deadline, which at the moment we wouldn't sell, sadly. /notsadly/ I don't know how to feel about the Wild.

 

[57special]

Mittelstadt for Greenway?

I ask, because CM seems to be that high upside, skilled C we all crave. Personally, I thought he would be a star...which just goes to show how wrong I can be.

Even if BUF says yes, I would probably rather keep Greenway, who himself has lots of potential. There is no doubt that he is the better player right now. He is not just a big dopey grinder, but has pretty good vision and hands.

 

[Bazeek]

Mittelstadt for Greenway?

I ask, because CM seems to be that high upside, skilled C we all crave. Personally, I thought he would be a star...which just goes to show how wrong I can be.

Even if BUF says yes, I would probably rather keep Greenway, who himself has lots of potential. There is no doubt that he is the better player right now. He is not just a big dopey grinder, but has pretty good vision and hands.

I might regret it, but I'd keep Greenway. I'm not really sure what's up with Mittelstadt, but pursuing him would assume that he's on track to be a top-6 center and I'm not sure that that's a good assumption right now. It'd require a lot of due diligence and some very good scouts to have confidence in that one.

 

[57special]

So, Mittelstadt is the type of player we want to go after, but not the actual one?

 

[thestonedkoala]

So, Mittelstadt is the type of player we want to go after, but not the actual one?

I'd trade a player like Donato for Mittelstadt, but Greenway?

 

[AKL]

I'd trade a player like Donato for Mittelstadt, but Greenway?

The only difference between Donato and Greenway at this point is 6 inches, 30lbs and 4.5 minutes per game. I wouldn’t hesitate to move either of them in the right deal. Not that Mittelstadt is necessarily the right deal, but the point is Greenway hasn’t done anything more than Donato has.

 

[thestonedkoala]

The only difference between Donato and Greenway at this point is 6 inches, 30lbs and 4.5 minutes per game. I wouldn’t hesitate to move either of them in the right deal. Not that Mittelstadt is necessarily the right deal, but the point is Greenway hasn’t done anything more than Donato has.

Except it appears that the Wild are higher on Greenway than they are on Donato, and that he slots in better in the lineup as he can play defense. I mean Greenway is getting more than 4.5 minutes more ice time than Donato, so that says a lot. Greenway is more responsible in his own end and yes, sometimes size is an important factor.

 

[AKL]

Except it appears that the Wild are higher on Greenway than they are on Donato, and that he slots in better in the lineup as he can play defense. I mean Greenway is getting more than 4.5 minutes more ice time than Donato, so that says a lot. Greenway is more responsible in his own end and yes, sometimes size is an important factor.

And next year when Boudreau is gone, Greenway being the better fit could go out the window and Donato could be the one getting top 6 minutes.

Hell, Donato is getting more powerplay time than Greenway, which tells me they think he has more offensive upside than Greenway, and he’s still got as many goals and 4 less total points than Greenway while getting significantly worse opportunity. Tells me he actually does have a higher offensive upside than Greenway.

You can teach a guy to play passable defense. The Wild have done it on numerous occasions.

 

[Bazeek]

So, Mittelstadt is the type of player we want to go after, but not the actual one?

On the one hand I think Mittelstadt is exactly the sort of player we should be sniffing around. On the other hand I think I'm one of the last people that would be able to tell if he's likely to work through his early struggles in the NHL or not. If Guerin had his pro scouts telling him that there's still a 2C in there I'd be willing to part with Greenway, who I'm probably more attached to than all of our young guys but Fiala.

As critical as I've been of the idea of Ek or Kunin at 2C, at some point we'd just be targeting guys who have similar problems. Zacha and Jost spring to mind.

 

[thestonedkoala]

And next year when Boudreau is gone, Greenway being the better fit could go out the window and Donato could be the one getting top 6 minutes.

Donato isn't going to get top 6 minutes unless we get rid of two wingers right now; Parise, Zucs, Fiala, Kaprizov (and that's trading Zucker)...He isn't going to be getting top 9 time unless we get rid of one more winger in either Kunin, Greenway, or Hartman. And I don't think he'd be a good fit on the 3rd line. He's only good on the 4th as they get so little time.

Hell, Donato is getting more powerplay time than Greenway, which tells me they think he has more offensive upside than Greenway, and he’s still got as many goals and 4 less total points than Greenway while getting significantly worse opportunity.

Brad Hunt is getting more power play time than Ryan Suter. Does that mean he is a better offensive defenseman than Suter? Does it mean he's a better defenseman than Suter? Greenway isn't also asked to play an offensive role. He's playing a defensive role, which is big for the Wild.

You can teach a guy to play passable defense. The Wild have done it on numerous occasions.

Passable defense vs being good defensively is a huge difference. 3 goals isn't that much of a difference. Who would you rather have on the PK? Gaborik or Koivu?

 

[AKL]

Donato isn't going to get top 6 minutes unless we get rid of two wingers right now; Parise, Zucs, Fiala, Kaprizov (and that's trading Zucker)...He isn't going to be getting top 9 time unless we get rid of one more winger in either Kunin, Greenway, or Hartman. And I don't think he'd be a good fit on the 3rd line. He's only good on the 4th as they get so little time.

Lucky for him, the plan is to move a winger or two this summer. Kaprizov and Zuccarello are right wingers, Fiala is playing right wing this season. There is as much potential for Donato to get top 9 or top 6 minutes as there is for Greenway. Again, going forward, fit can change. There's also the possibility that Donato returns to some semblance of the 16 point in 22 games player he was last year. Something Greenway hasn't even come close to demonstrating he can do.

Brad Hunt is getting more power play time than Ryan Suter. Does that mean he is a better offensive defenseman than Suter? Does it mean he's a better defenseman than Suter? Greenway isn't also asked to play an offensive role. He's playing a defensive role, which is big for the Wild.

Do you really think Suter vs Hunt is a good comparable to Greenway vs Donato?

There's a difference between being a better fit and being a better player. Considering your whole argument is that Greenway is a better fit, I would think you'd know that.

Passable defense vs being good defensively is a huge difference. 3 goals isn't that much of a difference. Who would you rather have on the PK? Gaborik or Koivu?

Passable defense is all that's needed for a scoring left winger. I don't need Donato to play the PK, I need someone that can score.