Speculation: Trade Deadline: March 8, 2024

Which UFAs do you think will be moved at the TDL?


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Canis Latrans

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The one where you have 4 years in a row at 72 points or less, the one where you lose 14 straight at this time of year without any key injuries. Again, I ask, at what point is Bear/BA going to be held accountable, this year next year, 2030? When exactly, and by what measures?
Do you actually expect them to be fired anytime soon? Armstrong's been asked to build up the team to be a consistent contender and he's won over Meruelo with a plan that involves taking it slow. Armstong also hired Tourigny who has been tasked with getting the young players to develop right so they can win once the talent starts to arrive en masse.

The measure of what success is will change as we move on from season to season. Right now it's not focused on points or loss streaks. They will shift focus to earning points in the standings and making the playoffs in maybe 2-3 seasons. I'm sure the next stage after that will be judged on the playoff performance alone and at some point it will be win the Cup or the season is a failure.

If it's clear Tourigny isn't able to progress the team along that path he'll be let go. If Armstrong isn't able to get the right pieces to help progress the team along that path he'll also be let go. Those are the standards they are being judged on now, and what they'll be judged upon in seasons to come. For now, they are both doing what needs to be done.
Who said we are taking a short cut?
Just in reference to making a move like we did for Taylor Hall where it's premature.
 

Canis Latrans

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Well either way, I’m assuming the reason he hasn’t been moved yet is because BA hasn’t gotten a good enough offer to feel like it’s worth it…so I’m not that worried about him being undersold too bad on a deal.
He's a secondary scoring threat who offers elite zone entries. It's the kind of acquisition that a contender certainly would look for, however, he has two full seasons left on his current contract after this one. It's likely anyone who seriously wanted him would have asked for salary retention and that would lock up two retention spots for two drafts and two trade deadlines.

Additionally, what's the return going to be? You want an NHL player back who can fit into our core, yet Schmaltz is 28, so that likely lowers Schmaltz's return unless the trade adds more parts. Again, he's a secondary option, so contenders are circling back to him after they've exhausted their attempts for who they really want, and if it's going to be larger trade, now the clock is running out; best to do this type of trade at the draft.

Maybe he'll get moved next trade deadline as it's one of those 2 playoff run acquisitions.

I think mostly it's just a matter of his contract circumstances that is making trading him difficult for the time being. Hopefully he doesn't fall off a cliff before then.
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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Do you actually expect them to be fired anytime soon? Armstrong's been asked to build up the team to be a consistent contender and he's won over Meruelo with a plan that involves taking it slow. Armstong also hired Tourigny who has been tasked with getting the young players to develop right so they can win once the talent starts to arrive en masse.

The measure of what success is will change as we move on from season to season. Right now it's not focused on points or loss streaks. They will shift focus to earning points in the standings and making the playoffs in maybe 2-3 seasons. I'm sure the next stage after that will be judged on the playoff performance alone and at some point it will be win the Cup or the season is a failure.

If it's clear Tourigny isn't able to progress the team along that path he'll be let go. If Armstrong isn't able to get the right pieces to help progress the team along that path he'll also be let go. Those are the standards they are being judged on now, and what they'll be judged upon in seasons to come. For now, they are both doing what needs to be done.

Just in reference to making a move like we did for Taylor Hall where it's premature.
I don't see BA being fired anytime soon. AM knows this franchise needs stability, but make no mistake, at the end of the day it's where you end up in the standings that you are judged. BA stated many times that he wants the team to play meaningful games and I don't think he means losing games by one goal not four. BA has also said we are entering the next phase of the re-build, whatever that is.
 

cobra427

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May 6, 2012
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Do you actually expect them to be fired anytime soon? Armstrong's been asked to build up the team to be a consistent contender and he's won over Meruelo with a plan that involves taking it slow. Armstong also hired Tourigny who has been tasked with getting the young players to develop right so they can win once the talent starts to arrive en masse.

The measure of what success is will change as we move on from season to season. Right now it's not focused on points or loss streaks. They will shift focus to earning points in the standings and making the playoffs in maybe 2-3 seasons. I'm sure the next stage after that will be judged on the playoff performance alone and at some point it will be win the Cup or the season is a failure.

If it's clear Tourigny isn't able to progress the team along that path he'll be let go. If Armstrong isn't able to get the right pieces to help progress the team along that path he'll also be let go. Those are the standards they are being judged on now, and what they'll be judged upon in seasons to come. For now, they are both doing what needs to be done.

Just in reference to making a move like we did for Taylor Hall where it's premature.
Goal posts keep moving. You are saying the goal is now to make the playoffs in the next 2 to 3 years, that would be year 6 or 7 since BA took over to make the playoffs. Do you think BA laid out a plan that said it will take 6 or 7 years to make the playoffs? 6 or 7 to be a cup contender sure, but 3 years to make the playoffs, max 4 is reasonable.

Are BA/Bear telling the players, we will shift focus in 2 to 3 more years to points? Maybe they are. Rushing a rebuild is not the way to do it but taking too long also has consequences, BA in my opinion doesn't get a mulligan for waiting a year to start the tear down, and waiting too long to trade Chych/OEL. Now he gets another year or two because its tough in coyote land, no money, no arena.

The epic collapse we are seeing at this time of the season is very telling to me. It is a culmination of things that BA and Bear get to take responsibility for, this isn't all on the players or our lack of talent. The planning, strategy and messaging are taking a bite now.
 
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cobra427

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I don't see BA being fired anytime soon. AM knows this franchise needs stability, but make no mistake, at the end of the day it's where you end up in the standings that you are judged. BA stated many times that he wants the team to play meaningful games and I don't think he means losing games by one goal not four. BA has also said we are entering the next phase of the re-build, whatever that is.
I don't think BA/Bear get fired either, we are broke and they just signed new deals. I can't stand generic general phrases in business like "meaningful games", "next stage of the rebuild". Those are good phrases to not make those that author them accountable, you can't tie them to anything.
 
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Jakey53

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He's a secondary scoring threat who offers elite zone entries. It's the kind of acquisition that a contender certainly would look for, however, he has two full seasons left on his current contract after this one. It's likely anyone who seriously wanted him would have asked for salary retention and that would lock up two retention spots for two drafts and two trade deadlines.

Additionally, what's the return going to be? You want an NHL player back who can fit into our core, yet Schmaltz is 28, so that likely lowers Schmaltz's return unless the trade adds more parts. Again, he's a secondary option, so contenders are circling back to him after they've exhausted their attempts for who they really want, and if it's going to be larger trade, now the clock is running out; best to do this type of trade at the draft.

Maybe he'll get moved next trade deadline as it's one of those 2 playoff run acquisitions.

I think mostly it's just a matter of his contract circumstances that is making trading him difficult for the time being. Hopefully he doesn't fall off a cliff before then.
The cap is going up next year so that might help. We are all talking about bringing more kids onto the roster, but we don't have much room at the forward position. We can't continue with the forward group we have and expect better results. Something has to happen there, we need to get better. I also expect BA will sign a UFA to help our D. Fingers crossed.
 
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Jakey53

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Goal posts keep moving. You are saying the goal is now to make the playoffs in the next 2 to 3 years, that would be year 6 or 7 since BA took over to make the playoffs. Do you think BA laid out a plan that said it will take 6 or 7 years to make the playoffs? 6 or 7 to be a cup contender sure, but 3 years to make the playoffs, max 4 is reasonable.

Are BA/Bear telling the players, we will shift focus in 2 to 3 more years to points? Maybe they are. Rushing a rebuild is not the way to do it but taking too long also has consequences, BA in my opinion doesn't get a mulligan for waiting a year to start the tear down, and waiting too long to trade Chych/OEL. Now he gets another year or two because its tough in coyote land, no money, no arena.

The epic collapse we are seeing at this time of the season is very telling to me. It is a culmination of things that BA and Bear get to take responsibility for, this isn't all on the players or our lack of talent. The planning, strategy and messaging are taking a bite now.
I don't agree with BA's timeline either. Our collapse this year is our lack of talent, and a bit unlucky, but it's the end of the year is where the team will be judged. Not hitting the 80pt. mark has to be disappointing for BA and the players.
 

Jakey53

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I don't think BA/Bear get fired either, we are broke and they just signed new deals. I can't stand generic general phrases in business like "meaningful games", "next stage of the rebuild". Those are good phrases to not make those that author them accountable, you can't tie them to anything.
I don't know where people are getting "we are broke" is coming from. AM just gave all the coaching staff raises, and has given BA what he wanted for his budget. I keep on hearing we are a budget team. Of course we are, we are in the middle of a re-build, that's not unusual. What is BA suppose to say? Tell me what you would tell the team. What would you say to make the players accountable. Also, what BA saying publicly doesn't mean he addresses the team the same way behind closed doors.
 

LittlePipes

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I don't know where people are getting "we are broke" is coming from. AM just gave all the coaching staff raises, and has given BA what he wanted for his budget. I keep on hearing we are a budget team. Of course we are, we are in the middle of a re-build, that's not unusual. What is BA suppose to say? Tell me what you would tell the team. What would you say to make the players accountable. Also, what BA saying publicly doesn't mean he addresses the team the same way behind closed doors.
those are good questions jakey.
if it was me, trying to get the players to play according to the plan / structure ( remember Bear said after the last loss that the team did not play D according to the planned structure) I probably wouldnt say much, but I would employ a very systematic and rigidly enforced by me method of scoring players adherence to structure and bench them for cumulative deviations. period. if I have to bring players up, so be it. there would be lots of negative side effects for sure, but the clarity of who is boss and what players do to get ice time and be successful would be worth it.
clarity is better than agreement ( and winning) at this point.
 

The Feckless Puck

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The epic collapse we are seeing at this time of the season is very telling to me. It is a culmination of things that BA and Bear get to take responsibility for, this isn't all on the players or our lack of talent.

I think BA is going to be addressing things at the draft - which is why he didn't give away our retention slots at the deadline.
 
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Jakey53

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those are good questions jakey.
if it was me, trying to get the players to play according to the plan / structure ( remember Bear said after the last loss that the team did not play D according to the planned structure) I probably wouldnt say much, but I would employ a very systematic and rigidly enforced by me method of scoring players adherence to structure and bench them for cumulative deviations. period. if I have to bring players up, so be it. there would be lots of negative side effects for sure, but the clarity of who is boss and what players do to get ice time and be successful would be worth it.
clarity is better than agreement ( and winning) at this point.
It's called "a system" and every team has one. Make no mistake, players get plenty of clarity. They know exactly what is required of them (accountability) within the system and practice it every day. EVERY team that steps on the ice wants to win, period. They practice to win every day.
 

The Feckless Puck

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No, really curious. Not many hit that status. What sport?

Not too keen on telling my story here, but I'll allow that it was motorsports. Let your imagination fill in the rest... :D Imagine Crash Davis in Bull Durham on the bus - that was basically me. I spent way more time working for pros than I spent being one.

What I've learned from that pro sports ecosystem about criticizing pro athletes is that there are basically three categories that most athletes have to face:

1) Trolls. These are people who want to watch the world burn. Pro athletes can tune these people out very easily because it's obvious who they are and what they're after.

2) Peers. This is the most complex category, because you're always suffering cognitive dissonance between believing you're good, great, or even the best, and then having to reconcile that with evidence to the contrary from people you're competing against. You also constantly have to be on your toes to know whether one of your peers is criticizing you in good faith or trying to throw you off your game. Generally, most of the athletes I know tend to try and let most of this roll off of them, with varying degrees of success, but the best take the criticism and either use it as fuel or self-examination to try and improve (although if it works, they rarely credit the source :D).

3) Fans. Anytime a pro gets fan criticism, there is a quick and deep desire to fall back on the Appeal to Authority - "You haven't done the thing at my level, consequently f*** your opinion," etc. You can't be that direct because you know that that person is one of the many indirectly paying your salary... but you want to be. But the dangerous part here is that sometimes, a fan will say something insightful that attacks you right at the core of your insecurity. You won't want to admit it for a million bucks, but they will be right, and it will grate on you because by rights they shouldn't have the ability to see you that clearly. The fortunate thing is that, except in rare circumstances, you are never close enough to the person levying the criticism that it leaves a lasting mark on you. But I have seen some pros, in very rare and specific circumstances, quietly reach out to someone who seems to have an insight and engage them.

I think the TL;DR of all of this is that professional athletes in all disciplines do represent the peak of their pursuit, but the very best never let their arrival at that level be an excuse to coast or to say, "I've made it." Reaching that level does not guarantee staying at that level, and it certainly doesn't become a guaranteed insulator from criticism or, indeed, signal the end of learning to be better.
 
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Dirty Old Man

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Not too keen on telling my story here, but I'll allow that it was motorsports.
(heh, for some reason I suspected that, and thought "...and the next argument we can have is whether drivers are athletes" :D )

15 or so years ago I was in an IndyCar forum that Paul Tracy frequented for a while...and he did not come across well. Very much did the "appeal to authority" you describe, plus he was a bad speller (and no, it wasn't just the Canadian words). Very cringe.
 

Bonsai Tree

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I respect the game and the league too much to call any NHL player crap of any kind.
I respect the hell out of anyone in a pro league for the amount of effort and dedication that they put in to reaching that level. I get as emotional as the next guy when my team isn't playing the way I want them to play. Sometimes I lose my bearings in my criticism, but I always come back to that respect that I have for anyone who can play at this level. Same goes for those at the pinnacle of any profession, not just pro athletes.
 

The Feckless Puck

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(heh, for some reason I suspected that, and thought "...and the next argument we can have is whether drivers are athletes" :D )

If anyone ever asked me, I'd just say, "Race car drivers are competitors" and leave it at that. Nobody ever actually quantifies the word "athlete" when it's used as a catchall like that.

15 or so years ago I was in an IndyCar forum that Paul Tracy frequented for a while...and he did not come across well. Very much did the "appeal to authority" you describe, plus he was a bad speller (and no, it wasn't just the Canadian words). Very cringe.

Do not get me started on that chode.
 

The Feckless Puck

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I respect the hell out of anyone in a pro league for the amount of effort and dedication that they put in to reaching that level. I get as emotional as the next guy when my team isn't playing the way I want them to play. Sometimes I lose my bearings in my criticism, but I always come back to that respect that I have for anyone who can play at this level. Same goes for those at the pinnacle of any profession, not just pro athletes.

I aspire to do this as well. Like in Schmaltz' case - I think he's definitely a highly-skilled athlete who deserves to be in the league. But I don't like his style of play in the context of our team, and his age makes him expendable because we're looking for players either approaching their prime at this stage of the rebuild or players with enough experience and leadership to make not being in their prime excusable. In other words, Schmaltz would have been a great, possibly critical, piece on the 2012 team, but on the 2024 team he's not nearly as indispensable, IMO.
 
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Coyotedroppings

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I respect the hell out of anyone in a pro league for the amount of effort and dedication that they put in to reaching that level. I get as emotional as the next guy when my team isn't playing the way I want them to play. Sometimes I lose my bearings in my criticism, but I always come back to that respect that I have for anyone who can play at this level. Same goes for those at the pinnacle of any profession, not just pro athletes.
Me too, except for the asshats, of course. :D

I aspire to do this as well. Like in Schmaltz' case - I think he's definitely a highly-skilled athlete who deserves to be in the league. But I don't like his style of play in the context of our team, and his age makes him expendable because we're looking for players either approaching their prime at this stage of the rebuild or players with enough experience and leadership to make not being in their prime excusable. In other words, Schmaltz would have been a great, possibly critical, piece on the 2012 team, but on the 2024 team he's not nearly as indispensable, IMO.
Valid and fair, but I can’t see moving him if it makes a young team worse. Wins are always important, as losing is the enemy in so many ways.
 
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cobra427

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I don't know where people are getting "we are broke" is coming from. AM just gave all the coaching staff raises, and has given BA what he wanted for his budget. I keep on hearing we are a budget team. Of course we are, we are in the middle of a re-build, that's not unusual. What is BA suppose to say? Tell me what you would tell the team. What would you say to make the players accountable. Also, what BA saying publicly doesn't mean he addresses the team the same way behind closed doors.
What would I tell the team as coach and/or GM: Our goal is to make the playoffs this year. That is the goal, make it crystal clear, whatever it takes, every person is accountable, the GM, the head coach, assistants, and every single player. You have to believe it for it to happen. This is what players want to hear, that we are going to make the playoffs as the teams goal.

I think BA has done a disservice to the team by saying meaningful games. i think Bear is in on the same line as well. Leadership is a skill, it means setting a target. so far, the team has hit the target. If you change the target, the team is more likely to hit it. 4 years ago if BA said in year 5 making the playoffs is our goal, that seems reasonable. That should be the message and target for next year.
 
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The Feckless Puck

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Valid and fair, but I can’t see moving him if it makes a young team worse. Wins are always important, as losing is the enemy in so many ways.

I think that's the big question - does moving Schmaltz make this team fundamentally worse? For me, I can't get on board with that, because for me the players whose subtraction make a squad quantifiably worse are game-changing type players. Schmaltz isn't that to me. He's an offensive weapon, but so is Dylan Guenther. He's a creative scorer, but so is Logan Cooley. There isn't anything he does that cannot be recreated either by another player by himself or in aggregate by the team, IMO.

Or, in other words, is Schmaltz a critical piece, or is he simply a good piece? If by losing Schmaltz, we gain a really solid guy on the back end who improves us defensively, is that a net balance, or even improvement?

I don't think we trade Schmaltz for a bag of pucks. But I do think we should trade him at the draft for some assets that will help us balance the team better. And, in fact, he might be the only player we have where this would be possible.
 
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hbk

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What would I tell the team as coach and/or GM: Our goal is to make the playoffs this year. That is the goal, make it crystal clear, whatever it takes, every person is accountable, the GM, the head coach, assistants, and every single player. You have to believe it for it to happen. This is what players want to hear, that we are going to make the playoffs as the teams goal.

I think BA has done a disservice to the team by saying meaningful games. i think Bear is in on the same line as well. Leadership is a skill, it means setting a target. so far, the team has hit the target. If you change the target, the team is more likely to hit it. 4 years ago if BA said in year 5 making the playoffs is our goal, that seems reasonable. That should be the message and target for next year.
i don't think the players are stupid. They can look at the roster just as well as you and I and tell you if the GM and coach are lieing to their face. We overachieved for first 40 and since the salt lake city garbage we have hopelessly underachieved.
 
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Coyotes19c

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What would I tell the team as coach and/or GM: Our goal is to make the playoffs this year. That is the goal, make it crystal clear, whatever it takes, every person is accountable, the GM, the head coach, assistants, and every single player. You have to believe it for it to happen. This is what players want to hear, that we are going to make the playoffs as the teams goal.

I think BA has done a disservice to the team by saying meaningful games. i think Bear is in on the same line as well. Leadership is a skill, it means setting a target. so far, the team has hit the target. If you change the target, the team is more likely to hit it. 4 years ago if BA said in year 5 making the playoffs is our goal, that seems reasonable. That should be the message and target for next year.
I don’t agree with everything you say but this should be the way. I don’t want us to rush anything but we should have higher expectations for ourselves. I would be willing to spend some assets (2nd round picks) on improving the team as well.
 

Kai Yo T

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Or, in other words, is Schmaltz a critical piece, or is he simply a good piece? If by losing Schmaltz, we gain a really solid guy on the back end who improves us defensively, is that a net balance, or even improvement?

I think Schmaltz is a good piece, not critical. If we were able to trade (not give him away, like others keep thinking we mean) for a solid D-man I'd be all over it. I think that D-man could help the team more than losing Schmaltz would hurt it.
 
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hbk

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I don’t agree with everything you say but this should be the way. I don’t want us to rush anything but we should have higher expectations for ourselves. I would be willing to spend some assets (2nd round picks) on improving the team as well.
you mean like we did last few years to snag Durzi and McBain? I think this is the plan.
 
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