Post-Game Talk: Trade Deadline Day/Week

[MS]

"I find it fascinating that people could watch us not be able to move Eriksson, Baertschi, or Spooner (ending in a buyout) for the past year and then think that the team will magically make all their bad contracts disappear this summer."

Pretty much the same thing........Case closed.

Still however waiting to hear which core pieces we are not going to be able to re-sign this summer due to our cap constraints.......

Uh.

I never said they couldn't get rid of Baertschi under any circumstances. I said that people were greatly overestimating how easy it would be to remove multiple poor contracts, just as it was very difficult for the team last summer.

And honestly, I wasn't even referring directly to your post (although it was one of many today in this vein). I was more referring to the multiple 20-21 lineup projects posted today which cleared $6 million by having Loui Eriksson take a magical mutual termination and have the NHL magically not count his signing bonus against the 20-21 cap.

Which core pieces? Markstrom and Tanev would be huge losses. Leivo and Virtanen would be substantial losses. Stecher would be a significant loss.

Outside of the Pettersson/Hughes/Boeser/Horvat core which obviously isn't going anywhere, those are like 5 of the next 8 most important players on the team ... and Markstrom has probably been the most important player on this team this year. Our mid-level depth is highly likely to take a major hit.

 

[racerjoe]

I'm going on the assumption that Demko can take over the #1 spot - however that remains to be seen but I'm fully confident in Demko moving forward.

If they don't re-sign Tanev it won't be because they don't have the money or can't make space - it will be because he's a 30 year old defenceman with an extensive injury history that they are leery of giving term to.

So our team MVP this year is not an important part? Neither is a #3 dman?

No I would argue he wasn't - review the notes on prior postings by me.

Anyone who doesn't think we will have to give up assets to divest ourself or Baer is clearly not in touch with the realities of the hockey world.

I will let MS continue the debate here, but I thought it was pretty straight forward reading it.

 

[4Twenty]

I forgot to add the bonuses which I believe are a couple of mill - which any cap increase would most likely take care of.
We are allowed to go over the cap by 10% - as long as we are under come Oct1. Ferland and another 2-2.5 mill dollar player on LTIR and we are good. Really can't see what all the screaming is about. The math is clear - things aren't ideal but people tend to forget that we can use LTIR or even putting players in the minors to free up cap space here and there.

10% of your 83.5m cap gets you to 91.8. That’s only $4m they can add to what you’ve posted above without a top 4 defensive D replacement.

its not going to be easy and painless.

 

[MS]

You probably think it's 'magical' because you're working off of a very poor understanding of the situation. Loui Eriksson would be walking away from $1.3mil a year, for 2 years of cash if his contract is mutually terminated following the bonus payout.

It doesn't sound very magical at all when you look at the correct numbers. If he's sent to Utica, I don't see him being away from his family for $1.3mil a year. This is a guy that's earned $60mil in his career. coming from someone with a young family, that is well off financially, it sounds a bit ludicrous to be honest. Not impossible, just improbable.

1. They sure aren't setting him up to feel disenchanted here by playing him 14-15 minutes/game in the top-6 since January 1.

2. It would be quite magical if the league decided that a huge signing bonus for the 20-21 season included in the player's cap hit for the 20-21 season wouldn't count against the cap for the 20-21 season after it was paid out.

3. Your numbers are wrong. He would be walking away from $2.5 million/year over the last 2 years of the deal if it was terminated after the bonus payout.

4. How many contracts in NHL history have been mutually terminated years ahead of time with $millions still owing? Surely this must happen all the time if it was so easy to get out of bad contracts and players were so willing to do it.

 

[VancouverJagger]

Uh.

I never said they couldn't get rid of Baertschi under any circumstances. I said that people were greatly overestimating how easy it would be to remove multiple poor contracts, just as it was very difficult for the team last summer.

And honestly, I wasn't even referring directly to your post (although it was one of many today in this vein). I was more referring to the multiple 20-21 lineup projects posted today which cleared $6 million by having Loui Eriksson take a magical mutual termination and have the NHL magically not count his signing bonus against the 20-21 cap.

Which core pieces? Markstrom and Tanev would be huge losses. Leivo and Virtanen would be substantial losses. Stecher would be a significant loss.

Outside of the Pettersson/Hughes/Boeser/Horvat core which obviously isn't going anywhere, those are like 5 of the next 8 most important players on the team ... and Markstrom has probably been the most important player on this team this year. Our mid-level depth is highly likely to take a major hit.

Losing Markstrom and replacing him with Demko is a prudent move by management (assuming Demko steps up this next month).

I outlined earlier in great detail how it's very feasible we keep Tanev, Virtanen and re-sign Toffli (this is assuming we can dump Baer and Demko is the starter). I guess you missed that post - feel free to scroll back a few pages and come at me telling me what was wrong with my assumptions. I provided #'s and facts - you haven't provided anything here other than fear mongering saying that losing XYZ would be a big loss.

There is zero need by management to dump Virtanen based on cap concerns. There is also plenty of money to re-sign Tanev - if they want to. Leivo and Stecher are not big losses - they are the type of players teams turn over EVERY YEAR - quit acting like they would be a big loss - they aren't.

Go and provide some actual #'s to show my how what I said earlier re the cap and our ability to keep most of our roster in tact next year was wrong. You are trying to perpetuate a story that just isn't true - we can keep Tanev, we can re-sign Toffoli, we can re-sign Jake - all with keeping the rest of our team intact and only losing Stecher and Leivo. The only pain here being the cost to get rid of Baer. Yes Markstrom would also have to go but we are lucky enough to be in a position to have a much cheaper and very viable option available to us. Your underlying hate on management narrative that pervades your thinking gets old and very tiresome. No, for the 1000 time I am by no means a Benning bro - I am someone however that calls it as they see it without an underlying agenda.

As well - I'm not naive enough to believe that Eriksson is going to walk away from his last 2 years - even if he's buried in the minors and has to suffer the ignomy of having to ride the bus every day I rather doubt he's going to walk away from that money. I'm not blind to see that there are issues moving forward with the cap - they are however overblown and should not preclude us from being able to re-sign the players that we feel are worth keeping.

 

[VancouverJagger]

So our team MVP this year is not an important part? Neither is a #3 dman?



I will let MS continue the debate here, but I thought it was pretty straight forward reading it.

Feel free to keep twisting my words........Yes Markstrom has been awesome and yes I would love to keep him - HOWEVER we are lucky enough to have a very capable and much cheaper option waiting in the wings. I already mentioned there is plenty of money to re-sign Tanev - if they want to. I would opt for keeping him however I don't know if I would feel comfortable at more than 3 years to do so.

 

[racerjoe]

Feel free to keep twisting my words........Yes Markstrom has been awesome and yes I would love to keep him - HOWEVER we are lucky enough to have a very capable and much cheaper option waiting in the wings. I already mentioned there is plenty of money to re-sign Tanev - if they want to. I would opt for keeping him however I don't know if I would feel comfortable at more than 3 years to do so.

I like Demko a lot, but I think you are still way under selling Marky here. This is a guy who was getting Vezina talk and I did see someone post something about even Heart talk. Going from a goalie of his ilk to Demko, even at a better than he has been league average is still a huge hit.

As for money, no you haven't shown anything. If I remember correctly you had a cap of like 86-87 mil, we needed to go over this and you were assuming Ferdland will just be on LTIR.

 

[VancouverJagger]

10% of your 83.5m cap gets you to 91.8. That’s only $4m they can add to what you’ve posted above without a top 4 defensive D replacement.

its not going to be easy and painless.

I agree there is going to be pain - I have NEVER said that isn't the case. I don't happen to have a time machine though so going back and not signing the contracts of Baer and Sutter and co. isn't viable unfortunately.

And what I posted included a D made up of Myers, Edler, Benn and Hughes - it also included re-signing Tanev and Fantenberg and bringing in Tryamkin, Rafferty and another inexpensive piece. I would actually take that over anything we have iced this year. So not sure what top 4 defensive D replacement we needed unless you are counting Stecher as a big loss - which he isn't.

 

[canuckking1]

I was saying you can move any players contract if your willing to over pay.

While I think your a bit on the low side for moving sven even with your opinion as the deal we now have to move a second(woo/Lind) and a fourth to get rid of him.

We are losing more and more assets to keep this team which imo is probably at its max potential already.

The loss of assets is what’s scaring me more and more.

if that deal goes through and I think you have to agree that sutter with his injury problems is going to cost a second and something else so let’s say the other of woo/Lind to move

we make the playoffs this year
2020 - no first(Miller); no second(toffoli); no madden
2021 - no second(sutter); no third(Miller);no fourth(resign toffoli or in the sven deal); no woo; no Lind (moving out sutter/sven)

basically no prospect depth (which hopefully turn into cheap elc to play on your bottom lines); no serious picks to get prospects For a playoff bubble team.


You basically need podz/hoglander to max out their potential to do anything which might only be as good as a second/third round apperance

and people are ok/think we are in good shape

We’d have to move a 2nd/4th and a prospect to get rid of Baer? That’s overkill I doubt you’d have to pay much in all honesty his contract is expiring and it’s not a back breaker at 3M.

 

[VancouverJagger]

I like Demko a lot, but I think you are still way under selling Marky here. This is a guy who was getting Vezina talk and I did see someone post something about even Heart talk. Going from a goalie of his ilk to Demko, even at a better than he has been league average is still a huge hit.

As for money, no you haven't shown anything. If I remember correctly you had a cap of like 86-87 mil, we needed to go over this and you were assuming Ferdland will just be on LTIR.

Feel free to review the notes and tell me where I went wrong then. I'm not here to repeat myself over and over.

As for Marky yeah that's a loss and yeah I don't think Demko replaces his production for at least a year or 2. However that's the reality of the situation we are in and I think it's a worthwhile result for us to have Demko assume the reigns. In 2-3 years it's very feasible to think that he could be outplaying Marky - at 1/2 the cap hit.

Nothing is ever going to be ideal here - that's just the reality of being an NHL team. There are rough decisions to be made.

 

[MS]

Losing Markstrom and replacing him with Demko is a prudent move by management (assuming Demko steps up this next month).

I outlined earlier in great detail how it's very feasible we keep Tanev, Virtanen and re-sign Toffli (this is assuming we can dump Baer and Demko is the starter). I guess you missed that post - feel free to scroll back a few pages and come at me telling me what was wrong with my assumptions. I provided #'s and facts - you haven't provided anything here other than fear mongering saying that losing XYZ would be a big loss.

There is zero need by management to dump Virtanen based on cap concerns. There is also plenty of money to re-sign Tanev - if they want to. Leivo and Stecher are not big losses - they are the type of players teams turn over EVERY YEAR - quit acting like they would be a big loss - they aren't.

Go and provide some actual #'s to show my how what I said earlier re the cap and our ability to keep most of our roster in tact next year was wrong. You are trying to perpetuate a story that just isn't true - we can keep Tanev, we can re-sign Toffoli, we can re-sign Jake - all with keeping the rest of our team intact and only losing Stecher and Leivo. The only pain here being the cost to get rid of Baer. Yes Markstrom would also have to go but we are lucky enough to be in a position to have a much cheaper and very viable option available to us. Your underlying hate on management narrative that pervades your thinking gets old and very tiresome. No, for the 1000 time I am by no means a Benning bro - I am someone however that calls it as they see it without an underlying agenda.

As well - I'm not naive enough to believe that Eriksson is going to walk away from his last 2 years - even if he's buried in the minors and has to suffer the ignomy of having to ride the bus every day I rather doubt he's going to walk away from that money. I'm not blind to see that there are issues moving forward with the cap - they are however overblown and should not preclude us from being able to re-sign the players that we feel are worth keeping.

Sooooooo ... what you're saying is that we're probably going to lose our All-Star #1 goalie and team MVP and be forced to take a huge downgrade in goal as a result of this cap crunch ... but the cap crunch isn't a big deal?

 

[Cupless44]

He laughed at the notion that we could offload Baer to which I offered to bet him $100 that he would be gone within a month of season opening next year. He then switched his stance to say well yes that could happen. Pretty clearly hedging his bets.

I never ever said that our cap concerns aren't valid - I fully agree that there's going to be some pain involved in some form or another - we are going to have to trade assets/picks etc. to divest ourselves of some of the dead weight - yes this sucks.

However to say that "We are totally effed" just isn't the case. Our core can and should stay intact - we have some nice young pieces coming up and we are lucky enough to have prospects that we can use to free up cap. No it's not ideal but yes ABSOLUTELY we do have options.

I stand by my assertion that our cap issues are overblown. Maybe I'm more of a solutions oriented guy but if you wanna focus on our problems sure - there are plenty - however conversely if you wanna focus on solutions there are plenty of those as well.

The cap situatuion is absolutely not overblown and this managemeent has inspired no confdence they will be skillfull enough to navigate through it, given that they created a totally unneccessary mess in the first place.

MS is completely correct. There is no excuse to be in this position coming off 4 years of no playoffs with one of the worst records in the NHL. They had every opportunity to rebuild properly and make smart decisions with a long term vision. Instead Benning got carried away with "mentorship" and loaded up the bottom of the roster with overpaid, useless veterans who are literally unmovable. The Beagle contract was a joke the day it was signed.

The result will likely be 2 of these 3 leaving in the summer...Tanev, Markstrom, Toffoli or maybe a young, improving useful player like Virtanen will have to be sacrificed, meanwhile we have Eriksson, Sutter, Beagle, Roussel all on the roster making 3 million +.

How is that not grossly incompetent roster management for a rebuilding, non playoff team? Any good GM knows you have to have young, cheap players in the bottom 6 in the salary cap era. This mess is not unexpected, you could see it coming a mile away.

 

[xtra]

We finally have the COB saying markstrom who recently got mentioned by Friedman in hart talks is not a core piece.


And yes I said I think this team with its cap cm verbs inability to add more talent is probably at its peak of a 2nd round/3round apperance if all goes lucky in the playoffs because I believe so.

this is not a cup contending team and we are now going to have to remove key elements that made us successful (Markstrom) to have an worse team Next year.

also remember when the oilers had their best players being 19/20/21 and still didn’t do anything cause management saddled them with a bad team around them.

 

[xtra]

We’d have to move a 2nd/4th and a prospect to get rid of Baer? That’s overkill I doubt you’d have to pay much in all honesty his contract is expiring and it’s not a back breaker at 3M.

Second in terms of woo/Lind and a 4th which is what was proposed by the other poster.

Do you have examples of cap dumps (which is what he is) going for less recently?

 

[VancouverJagger]

Sooooooo ... what you're saying is that we're probably going to lose our All-Star #1 goalie and team MVP and be forced to take a huge downgrade in goal as a result of this cap crunch ... but the cap crunch isn't a big deal?

You need to change your handle to "Spinmaster"...........

Yeah that's exactly what I said *HUGE EYE ROLL

There's no point in debating if you are going to cherry pick and twist indirect points to suit your narrative. I might as well go shout at the wall as the results will be similar. If you want to address the actual points I brought up great - we can have a real discussion. I doubt that's going to happen though so I'll bow out of this convo and tend to things more productive in nature.

 

[I am toxic]

So if we ignore math, best case scenario for next season is the same lineup minus our 1G vezina level goalie, and our 5D. Three of our top4D are aging out.

So, a slight (or possibly significant, if Tanev or Edler fall off a cliff or if Demko falters) downgrade on what has been a bubble team this season.

Then after that, our 2 superstars come off their ELC's, Edler is done, and Tanev and Myers are aging out.

Add to that we've given up a 1st, a 2nd, a 3rd and a top 5 prospect.

Aaaand we have no cap space to weaponize - to the contrary, we may have to give up even more picks just to get a slightly worse team next year.

 

[VancouverJagger]

The cap situatuion is absolutely not overblown and this managemeent has inspired no confdence they will be skillfull enough to navigate through it, given that they created a totally unneccessary mess in the first place.

MS is completely correct. There is no excuse to be in this position coming off 4 years of no playoffs with one of the worst records in the NHL. They had every opportunity to rebuild properly and make smart decisions with a long term vision. Instead Benning got carried away with "mentorship" and loaded up the bottom of the roster with overpaid, useless veterans who are literally unmovable. The Beagle contract was a joke the day it was signed.

The result will likely be 2 of these 3 leaving in the summer...Tanev, Markstrom, Toffoli or maybe a young, improving useful player like Virtanen will have to be sacrificed, meanwhile we have Eriksson, Sutter, Beagle, Roussel all on the roster making 3 million +.

How is that not grossly incompetent roster management for a rebuilding, non playoff team? Any good GM knows you have to have young, cheap players in the bottom 6 in the salary cap era. This mess is not unexpected, you could see it coming a mile away.

Please tell me once where I stated that our cap situation is awesome or ideal? Please tell me once where I've said that management has done an awesome job with the cap?

Yes - it's clear that things should've been handled better. It's also clear (to me at least) that we are not nearly as f***ed as everyone here seems to think we are. If you want to focus on problems go right ahead - you will find plenty of them if that's your thing.

 

[racerjoe]

So if we ignore math, best case scenario for next season is the same lineup minus our 1G vezina level goalie, and our 5D. Three of our top4D are aging out.

So, a slight (or possibly significant, if Tanev or Edler fall off a cliff) downgrade on what has been a bubble team this season.

Then after that, our 2 superstars come off their ELC's, Edler is done, and Tanev and Myers are aging out.

Add to that we've given up a 1st, a 2nd, a 3rd and a top 5 prospect.

Aaaand we have no cap space to weaponize - to the contrary, we may have to give up even more picks just to get a slightly worse team next year.

You forgot in this scenario I think we lost our 4th too to re-sign Tofolli...

 

[MS]

You need to change your handle to "Spinmaster"...........

Yeah that's exactly what I said *HUGE EYE ROLL

There's no point in debating if you are going to cherry pick and twist indirect points to suit your narrative. I might as well go shout at the wall as the results will be similar. If you want to address the actual points I brought up great - we can have a real discussion. I doubt that's going to happen though so I'll bow out of this convo and tend to things more productive in nature.

Your 'solution' to the problem was basically letting Markstrom walk and going with Demko. That is a huge downgrade for the team. To be arguing that the cap crunch is no big deal because we'll only be losing the guy who is the most important player on the team this year and replacing him with a backup with 25 career starts is ... bizarre.

 

[tradervik]

One little detail on Baertschi's contract is that he will be owed only $2.4 million cash for 20/21. For some teams, that is more important than the cap hit.

Baertschi is not a terrible player but his concussion issues have derailed his career.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

We’d have to move a 2nd/4th and a prospect to get rid of Baer? That’s overkill I doubt you’d have to pay much in all honesty his contract is expiring and it’s not a back breaker at 3M.

Every team is past the cap floor this year. Teams that will be able to take on other teams bad contracts will be slim and, there will be multiple teams looking to get rid of a bad contract. It doesn't help that other GMs know that salary needs to be moved to resign our players.

 

[4Twenty]

You probably think it's 'magical' because you're working off of a very poor understanding of the situation. Loui Eriksson would be walking away from $1.3mil a year, for 2 years of cash if his contract is mutually terminated following the bonus payout.

It doesn't sound very magical at all when you look at the correct numbers. If he's sent to Utica, I don't see him being away from his family for $1.3mil a year. This is a guy that's earned $60mil in his career. coming from someone with a young family, that is well off financially, it sounds a bit ludicrous to be honest. Not impossible, just improbable.

You know what sounds ludicrous? Suggesting that the guy who has spent nearly half the season on the 2nd line in the NHL will be strong armed to the AHL with 2 years left.

 

[canuckking1]

Second in terms of woo/Lind and a 4th which is what was proposed by the other poster.

Do you have examples of cap dumps (which is what he is) going for less recently?

Michael Frolik was a cap dump. If baertschi can't be moved I'd think a guy like Sutter and Benn could garner the same interest that Scandella and Frolik got. Wouldn't be surprised to see a team take a chance on an expiring baertschi either.

 

[4Twenty]

Losing Markstrom and replacing him with Demko is a prudent move by management (assuming Demko steps up this next month).

I outlined earlier in great detail how it's very feasible we keep Tanev, Virtanen and re-sign Toffli (this is assuming we can dump Baer and Demko is the starter). I guess you missed that post - feel free to scroll back a few pages and come at me telling me what was wrong with my assumptions. I provided #'s and facts - you haven't provided anything here other than fear mongering saying that losing XYZ would be a big loss.

There is zero need by management to dump Virtanen based on cap concerns. There is also plenty of money to re-sign Tanev - if they want to. Leivo and Stecher are not big losses - they are the type of players teams turn over EVERY YEAR - quit acting like they would be a big loss - they aren't.

Go and provide some actual #'s to show my how what I said earlier re the cap and our ability to keep most of our roster in tact next year was wrong. You are trying to perpetuate a story that just isn't true - we can keep Tanev, we can re-sign Toffoli, we can re-sign Jake - all with keeping the rest of our team intact and only losing Stecher and Leivo. The only pain here being the cost to get rid of Baer. Yes Markstrom would also have to go but we are lucky enough to be in a position to have a much cheaper and very viable option available to us. Your underlying hate on management narrative that pervades your thinking gets old and very tiresome. No, for the 1000 time I am by no means a Benning bro - I am someone however that calls it as they see it without an underlying agenda.

As well - I'm not naive enough to believe that Eriksson is going to walk away from his last 2 years - even if he's buried in the minors and has to suffer the ignomy of having to ride the bus every day I rather doubt he's going to walk away from that money. I'm not blind to see that there are issues moving forward with the cap - they are however overblown and should not preclude us from being able to re-sign the players that we feel are worth keeping.

That post was over the cap. I don’t know why you keep pointing it out as if it’s good. It’s more than ferland on LTIR over

 

[4Twenty]

I agree there is going to be pain - I have NEVER said that isn't the case. I don't happen to have a time machine though so going back and not signing the contracts of Baer and Sutter and co. isn't viable unfortunately.

And what I posted included a D made up of Myers, Edler, Benn and Hughes - it also included re-signing Tanev and Fantenberg and bringing in Tryamkin, Rafferty and another inexpensive piece. I would actually take that over anything we have iced this year. So not sure what top 4 defensive D replacement we needed unless you are counting Stecher as a big loss - which he isn't.

Well the clear disagreement is that you think that problems are overblown. At least you recognize there will be pain and the job to actually upgrade the roster are limited by these overblown handcuffs.