Toronto's Goaltending Dilemma (Who starts in the playoffs?)

[BoredBrandonPridham]

A straw man argument to ask for an example of a team trading a 3rd round pick for a player they waive 10 days later?

You’re trying to avoid acknowledging the stupidity of that.

I addressed why it was straw man.

You think that's crazy? Wait till you learn that teams trade picks for players that were waived 2 days earlier

 

[sparxx87]

I addressed why it was straw man.

You think that's crazy? Wait till you learn that teams trade picks for players that were waived 2 days earlier

A straw man question? Hmmm. Interesting. I’ve heard of a straw man argument, but I wasn’t arguing anything? I asked you a simple and direct question you’ve chosen to avoid. Answering this question honestly would require you to admit that this doesn’t make sense so it’s never happened.

I’m not asking about picks traded for players who’ve cleared. That’s different.

Why is it so difficult for you to have an honest discussion or debate?

 

[vpasla1]

I addressed why it was straw man.

You think that's crazy? Wait till you learn that teams trade picks for players that were waived 2 days earlier

Trading picks for players who already cleared waivers gives teams the benefit of cap flexibility on said player.

What is the benefit of waiving a player after you traded assets for them?

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

What is the benefit of waiving a player after you traded assets for them?

Same benefit of trading assets for a player that isn't an upgrade on anyone on your roster. Injury insurance.

Rittich is nothing but injury insurance, because we had lots of uncertainty in injuries to our goaltender depth. The situation in which we don't need Rittich anymore, is the situation in which Andersen and Campbell get 100% healthy. In that case, plan would be to waive Rittich, and he (unlikely) possibly is claimed. If your tenders don't get healthy, then you keep Rittich and he backs someone up.

No different than trading futures for a player who probably won't play if your roster stays healthy.

It's moot now any way. Hyman is injured, so we wouldn't even have to waive Rittich. Conversation started from perspective of cap management from what was known at the TDL.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Taxi Squad guys are already waived.

Point was you can’t have 8 guys on taxi squad.

 

[Fogelhund]

Only 2 goalies who played more than 4 games posted a higher playoff Sv% than Andersen last season (.936).
But we should totally decide he is trash because we know he sucks in the playoffs... Or something.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Point was you can’t have 8 guys on taxi squad.

Then a couple go to AHL.

 

[Golden_Jet]

How do they risk losing players to waivers? They literally do not need to waive anyone to get Andersen in...



What are you talking about?

You said send 3 players to taxi squad, you can only have 5 on taxi, including 1 goalie, thus you can’t have 8. Something has to give.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Then a couple go to AHL.

That’s fine, but only allowed 2 emergency call ups after TDL, I believe leafs already used 1, but not positive.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

That’s fine, but only allowed 2 emergency call ups after TDL, I believe leafs already used 1, but not positive.

Isn't it emergency call-ups as needed, But only 2 regular recalls?

Sandin is on roster as emergency call-up, so I think they'd still have 2 regular recalls.

Honestly I don't know if TS -> NHL roster is considered one of the recalls either. Haven't seen any info about how all that works. Pretty sure you can grab a guy from your TS -> NHL with no cap hit, so emergency exceptions can be applied to TS. What does that mean in terms of # of regular recalls during post-TDL regular season?

 

[Tak7]

Only 2 goalies who played more than 4 games posted a higher playoff Sv% than Andersen last season (.936).
But we should totally decide he is trash because we know he sucks in the playoffs... Or something.

1) The only reason this is even a debate, is because Freddie has failed in the playoffs.
2) He's not healthy.
3) They don't have the cap space to bring him back onto the roster before the playoffs, once he gets healthy.
4) Throwing him into the playoffs, cold, is a disaster waiting to happen for a goaltender who notoriously starts very slow.

 

[Tak7]

Isn't it emergency call-ups as needed, But only 2 regular recalls?

Sandin is on roster as emergency call-up, so I think they'd still have 2 regular recalls.

Honestly I don't know if TS -> NHL roster is considered one of the recalls either. Haven't seen any info about how all that works. Pretty sure you can grab a guy from your TS -> NHL with no cap hit, so emergency exceptions can be applied to TS. What does that mean in terms of # of regular recalls during post-TDL regular season?

Any player that was on the roster at the deadline, has to remain on the roster - they can't be sent down / taxi squaded.

That means the only players the Leafs can move now are Robertson (called up after deadline), Sandin & Sabourin (emergency recalls).

The only way they open up enoug cap space to bring Andersen back, is if there's another injury on the team. If Hyman is out long enough to be eligible for LTIR, it will work, but his prognosis is 2 weeks, which would put him just short of the 10 games / 24 days LTIR requirement.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Isn't it emergency call-ups as needed, But only 2 regular recalls?

Sandin is on roster as emergency call-up, so I think they'd still have 2 regular recalls.

Honestly I don't know if TS -> NHL roster is considered one of the recalls either. Haven't seen any info about how all that works. Pretty sure you can grab a guy from your TS -> NHL with no cap hit, so emergency exceptions can be applied to TS. What does that mean in terms of # of regular recalls during post-TDL regular season?

OK here is what I found,

From the end of the trade deadline until the end of the regular season there is no roster limit, however a team is only allowed to recall 4 players from their American Hockey league team. The team is allowed an unlimited number of emergency recalls if there are injuries on your current roster. ( I believe the TS is considered AHL)

An NHL team cannot bury a contract on the taxi squad. If a player is making 5 million dollars on the NHL team, he will count for the 5 million minus the 1 million dollar exemption for minor league players.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

OK here is what I found,

From the end of the trade deadline until the end of the regular season there is no roster limit, however a team is only allowed to recall 4 players from their American Hockey league team. The team is allowed an unlimited number of emergency recalls if there are injuries on your current roster. ( I believe the TS is considered AHL)

An NHL team cannot bury a contract on the taxi squad. If a player is making 5 million dollars on the NHL team, he will count for the 5 million minus the 1 million dollar exemption for minor league players.

Good find. I looked a bit before the TDL but couldn't find text specifically for this year.

With regards to TS being considered AHL in your note, I'm not so sure about that. When a player is on the TS, they are still "with the NHL team", in terms of what team they belong to. It's just their pay and cap hit is the same as the AHL. Given they said "from their AHL team" leads me more to believe that movement between TS and NHL team is not considered a recall. But you could be right.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Any player that was on the roster at the deadline, has to remain on the roster - they can't be sent down / taxi squaded.

You sure?

Transactions - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Leafs sent Marincin to the Taxi Squad on April 14th, and he was on the NHL roster at the TDL as a regular call-up a couple days prior.

 

[tmlms13]

Laughably useless? I don't know about that, sure they're different but there are definitely some similarities.


Yea Colorado has been a powerhouse, funny enough over 1/2 of that difference (0.55/1.00 g/gp) is from the powerplay.

Yea you might actually be right about the 2015 draft becoming better than the 2003 one, as good as it was. It (2015) definitely is looking better in terms of its top-end players but it also has a high quantity of quality NHL players as well. Never even realized this until you mentioned it, and yea f*** Boston, good for them.

My top 10 picks for a 2015 re-draft would be:
1. McDavid
2. Eichel
3. Marner
4. Rantanen
5. Aho
6. Barzal
7. Chabot
8. Connor
9. Provorov
10. Werenski

Each of those 10 would be on the best on best team for their country and all in the Big 6. I doubt you could find a draft since 2005 with that. And I only included the first round (though you put in Aho a second rounder)

 

[Tak7]

You sure?

Transactions - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Leafs sent Marincin to the Taxi Squad on April 14th, and he was on the NHL roster at the TDL as a regular call-up a couple days prior.

I believe he was called up on an emergency recall

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

OK here is what I found,

From the end of the trade deadline until the end of the regular season there is no roster limit, however a team is only allowed to recall 4 players from their American Hockey league team. The team is allowed an unlimited number of emergency recalls if there are injuries on your current roster. ( I believe the TS is considered AHL)

An NHL team cannot bury a contract on the taxi squad. If a player is making 5 million dollars on the NHL team, he will count for the 5 million minus the 1 million dollar exemption for minor league players.

Good find. I looked a bit before the TDL but couldn't find text specifically for this year.

With regards to TS being considered AHL in your note, I'm not so sure about that. When a player is on the TS, they are still "with the NHL team", in terms of what team they belong to. It's just their pay and cap hit is the same as the AHL. Given they said "from their AHL team" leads me more to believe that movement between TS and NHL team is not considered a recall. But you could be right.

After looking at the cap friendly transactions list, given the lack of regular recalls from the Taxi Squad since April 12, and the volume of regular recalls prior, I'm inclined to think you're right regarding TS -> NHL being bound to the regular recall limit. It's all emergency loans now.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

I believe he was called up on an emergency recall

No he wasn't, look at the link on his recall on April 10. It was not an emergency recall. The Leafs wanted his cap hit on the roster because they were tuning their ACSL.

 

[tmlms13]

Laughably useless? I don't know about that, sure they're different but there are definitely some similarities.


Yea Colorado has been a powerhouse, funny enough over 1/2 of that difference (0.55/1.00 g/gp) is from the powerplay.

Yea you might actually be right about the 2015 draft becoming better than the 2003 one, as good as it was. It (2015) definitely is looking better in terms of its top-end players but it also has a high quantity of quality NHL players as well. Never even realized this until you mentioned it, and yea f*** Boston, good for them.

My top 10 picks for a 2015 re-draft would be:
1. McDavid
2. Eichel
3. Marner
4. Rantanen
5. Aho
6. Barzal
7. Chabot
8. Connor
9. Provorov
10. Werenski

I'd flip Barzal and Aho. I think Aho has reached his peak, and Barzal still has potential for a lot more. (gotta get off the Island)

and put Werenski at #7, though I'd like to see more of him without Seth Jones.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Only 2 goalies who played more than 4 games posted a higher playoff Sv% than Andersen last season (.936).
But we should totally decide he is trash because we know he sucks in the playoffs... Or something.

Because he has lost all edit 4 game #7s he’s been in over his career he is not trusted. Lost game 5 best of 5 final game qualifying round last season.Rotate Goalies in the Playoffs with:
Campbell getting
1-3-5-7
Andersen getting:
2-4-6 that solves it

 

[Golden_Jet]

After looking at the cap friendly transactions list, given the lack of regular recalls from the Taxi Squad since April 12, and the volume of regular recalls prior, I'm inclined to think you're right regarding TS -> NHL being bound to the regular recall limit. It's all emergency loans now.

Good thinking to check that.
Also read this, The best way to think about the taxi squad is to think it of a small division of your minor league club. All of the players on your taxi squad are under the same rules as the players in the minors.

So it does look like that’s the case.

 

[ITM]

Constructive non-sequitor -

Voted Campbell. Campbell if he's healthy. You judge him game to game. If he looks noticeably shaky, that is, if goals allowed are his fault ALONE, then IF Andersen is healthy you start him the next game and adjudge accordingly. Rittich is the third string goalie. Hutchinson is behind Rittich. Our contracted starter has been out for a prolonged period of time. It's gotta be Campbell. But...

...IF Andersen hasn't been nearly as injured -- or injured at all -- then perhaps the right play is to see if Freddie can rise to the occasion. Campbell has worked well in a relief/rescue role and maybe that's the prompt he identifies most with at this stage of his time in Toronto.

It's safe to say, Rittich is the starter only when the Andersen/Campbell option isn't an option. And another big IF is IF Rittich resumes form from a few seasons ago -- which does happen -- then a third is peanuts depending how far we go and what contribution Rittich makes. In all seriousness, Rittich needs to win one game in the playoffs to justify the pick. And if the win is a Game 5 or Game 7 win, a third round pick is peanuts for the cost of that kind of exclamation point.

 

[TheScandal89]

I think you go with Campbell as of right now unless he keeps playing poorly.

Andersen as back up

Rittich is the last resort, might even go with Hutchinson over him after last game. I mean that 3rd and 5th goal were terrible, especially the 5th since it was going wide. At least Toskala's famous blunder was on net

Most likely your keeping any of them on a short leash

 

[Fogelhund]

Because he has lost all 5 game #7s he’s been in over his career he is not trusted. Rotate Goalies in the Playoffs with:
Campbell getting
1-3-5-7
Andersen getting:
2-4-6 that solves it

He's played in 4 game 7's. 5 deciding games.

In deciding games

Leafs have scored 2 goals, 1 goal, 2 goals, 4 goals, 1 goal.

In those games, were Matthews, Marner, Rielly, Nylander, Hyman, Dermott have also lost...

We may need Andersen to be better, but let's not pretend this is just a Andersen issue. We scored enough goals to win a game, in ONE of FIVE games. Nobody played well enough. Nobody should really be trusted to be game seven players, until they prove they are. If Campbell can get back to his streak form, I'm more than happy to go with him. If Andersen comes back, is injury free, and at peak Andersen levels, I'm happy to go with him. I don't really care, as long as that is the best goalie, right then. Heck, it could be Rittich, or Hutch for all I care....

But the whole team needs to be better than they have been. That's my point.