The Star: Toronto Maple Leafs head coach Randy Carlyle takes jab at Phil Kessel and Tyler Bozak

[Peasy]

You must be lost, this is the hockey forum.

???? What hardware does Kessel have over Doughty?

 

[officialmark*]

Usually I'm met by everyone jumping down my throat for criticizing Kessel, but it seems like people are finally starting to stop accepting mediocrity.

The proof is everywhere, people just have to open their eyes and voice their displeasure for there to be change.

 

[Daisy Jane]

(sigh)
Lord have mercy, this is never, ever going to end is it?
if it's not going to be 6 years of OH MY GOD WHY CLARKSON. it's going to be 8 years of OH MY GOD, KESSEL IS FAT. on top of OH MY GOD BOZAK STILL 'AINT NUMBER ONE, Y'ALL.

If Crosby was here, we'd hate him.
If Stamkos was here, we'd hate him
If Doughty was here, we'd hate him
If Benn was here, we'd hate him.
If Eriksson was here, we'd crucify him. Subban too.

let's not even get it twisted y'all. Though there would be the same amount of fans that would be happy that we'd have great talent - but we don't like the great talent that we have. If it's not Kessel's weight, it's the fact that Crosby -and let's call a spade a spade - as amazing as he is, he gets emotional, frustrated way too easily, and while he has assists per game during the playoffs - he went 0 for 14 playoff games or something bizarroworld like that.

Is anyone going to sit here and tell me if that happened here, that everyone would be all "It's okay, boo. it's Crosby, it's fine because he trained like a mad man during the summer and scored all 'them points during the regular season, so the assists are fine who care that he went 0fer being swept by Boston, or not scoring a goal until the 2nd round last season. he had his points, boo, and he's elite, cause he be training all up and here."

No. the theme would be how Crosby was a choker, and couldn't get it done in the playoffs and no matter how he got it done regular season he couldn't get it done during the Playoffs. the papers would eviscerate him every day and it wouldn't be 'hinted' at it would be in bold block letters on the Sun, Star, Sportsnet and TSN.

no one here would give a flying rats bottom that he was elite, or fit, or the second coming or better than Gretzky. ALL anyone would care rant, or rave about is that A: we got swept in the playoffs without him scoring ONE POINT, and he went through early two rounds and only scored, like 2.

Do not pee on my leg, and tell me it's raining.

 

[Suntouchable13]

(sigh)
Lord have mercy, this is never, ever going to end is it?
if it's not going to be 6 years of OH MY GOD WHY CLARKSON. it's going to be 8 years of OH MY GOD, KESSEL IS FAT. on top of OH MY GOD BOZAK STILL 'AINT NUMBER ONE, Y'ALL.

If Crosby was here, we'd hate him.
If Stamkos was here, we'd hate him
If Doughty was here, we'd hate him
If Benn was here, we'd hate him.
If Eriksson was here, we'd crucify him. Subban too.

let's not even get it twisted y'all. Though there would be the same amount of fans that would be happy that we'd have great talent - but we don't like the great talent that we have. If it's not Kessel's weight, it's the fact that Crosby -and let's call a spade a spade - as amazing as he is, he gets emotional, frustrated way too easily, and while he has assists per game during the playoffs - he went 0 for 14 playoff games or something bizarroworld like that.

Is anyone going to sit here and tell me if that happened here, that everyone would be all "It's okay, boo. it's Crosby, it's fine because he trained like a mad man during the summer and scored all 'them points during the regular season, so the assists are fine who care that he went 0fer being swept by Boston, or not scoring a goal until the 2nd round last season. he had his points, boo, and he's elite, cause he be training all up and here."

No. the theme would be how Crosby was a choker, and couldn't get it done in the playoffs and no matter how he got it done regular season he couldn't get it done during the Playoffs. the papers would eviscerate him every day and it wouldn't be 'hinted' at it would be in bold block letters on the Sun, Star, Sportsnet and TSN.

no one here would give a flying rats bottom that he was elite, or fit, or the second coming or better than Gretzky. ALL anyone would care rant, or rave about is that A: we got swept in the playoffs without him scoring ONE POINT, and he went through early two rounds and only scored, like 2.

Do not pee on my leg, and tell me it's raining.

Win, and nobody would be crucified. This team is just not good enough. Winning cures all.

 

[7even]

Win, and nobody would be crucified. This team is just not good enough. Winning cures all.

Yup. Nobody cared when we were headed for the playoffs.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Kessel only contributes to the Leafs one way, and if hes not on his game, hes a huge liability for the leafs.

In what way was he a huge liability on Wednesday?

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Likely scenario...

Kessel will have a lesser season than last year and he will be pressured to get in shape - by the team, MLSE, sports writers, etc. He will come back next season in better shape, have a slightly better year, but face an uphill battle against time. In 10 years, when people write about his career, they will say he was the best player at the 2014 Olympics but never again played to that level.

 

[TRG]

Is your coach already calling players out? We're not even a week in the season :

I don't know but if the Leafs want success, Kessel will be a big part of it. Attacking him does no good and attacks directly Carlyle's job security.

 

[Peasy]

In what way was he a huge liability on Wednesday?

His line finished a -2 didn't it? Also its not like he was out there on the PK or making big hits to contribute to the team in other ways. If Kessel isn't scoring, hes not really bringing anything else to the team.

 

[pcruz]

Yeah my bad, I was making the assumption that a professional athlete who is one of the strongest players on our team and one of the fastest players in the league is physically fit, not sure how I arrived at that conclusion.

What's that principle? Given two equal options, the simple answer tends to be the correct one? So we could say that a top NHL player predictably has a fitness level that corresponds to his ability and the level he plays at, or we could perform some insane mental gymnastics and arrive at the conclusion that he's got the talent of Wayne Gretzky with the fitness level of Dustin Byfuglien, and that he could be literally anything and everything this franchise needs if only he hit the gym a few times a week and just tried harder. What's more likely?

Hey now, Occam's Razor is not called for here. It's obvious that many people here can't, or choose not to read anything that disproves their ludicrous and unfounded opinions, let's not get overly complicated here.

The nutritionists, Medical Doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, know more than the people in the dressing room. They actually have access to televisions where they get to watch the players, dressed in full uniform including pads, skate around. Those idiots in the locker room and showers can't see the fitness level of the other players in with them.

I don't know what Bure has to do with Kessel but not many people are saying PK is the problem with the Leafs

Maybe you haven't bothered to read 1/4 of the posts in this and the other thread, but that's exactly what many are saying.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Kessel does what he is suppose to do i.e. score goals and be ppg or close to ppg over 82 games.

The problem on the 1st line is not Kessel or JVR. Its ****ing Bozak. 1C should be played by a pivot that knows how to drive possession and is good at zone exits.

Its been 5 years of garbage as 1C its time to move on and skilled players play center on the first line and first unit PP.

It is a joke that Bozak is a center on the 1st line and gets 1st PP time for 5 years and has not yet cracked 50 points or a 20 goal barrier in NHL.

Its unheard off unless of-course its the leafs

 

[pcruz]

funny you list those players, because a guy like sundin got all this same BS criticisms for being soft and lazy at the same age.

He was garbage. What did he ever accomplish in his career? Nothing!
Except, you know, the fact that he was a first ballot Hall of Fame inductee; franchise leader in points and goals; first European selected first overall in NHL history; Olympic gold medalist.

Oh wait, those fans way back when, had no clue what they were talking about.

 

[Trapper]

His line finished a -2 didn't it? Also its not like he was out there on the PK or making big hits to contribute to the team in other ways. If Kessel isn't scoring, hes not really bringing anything else to the team.

I believe Kessel cares and wants to win.
However that being said I see his mentality as only a goal scorer. That's all he looks at. I have to score goals to win. If my line gives up 3 goals then we have to score 4. He doesn't think that maybe if my line doesn't give up any goals we only need to score 1. Or none because another line did it. Defense wins championships, not having to always outscore your problems.
This and the fact that our core is not great defensively leave us mediocre. So we either accept this core is highly unpredictable year to year with very average Center depth or we change it and put ourselves in a position to get the key pieces necessary.

 

[pcruz]

I believe Kessel cares and wants to win.
However that being said I see his mentality as only a goal scorer. That's all he looks at. I have to score goals to win. If my line gives up 3 goals then we have to score 4. He doesn't think that maybe if my line doesn't give up any goals we only need to score 1. Or none because another line did it. Defense wins championships, not having to always outscore your problems.
This and the fact that our core is not great defensively leave us mediocre. So we either accept this core is highly unpredictable year to year with very average Center depth or we change it and put ourselves in a position to get the key pieces necessary.

Do you people even watch the games, or is it just so much easier to rattle off a whole bunch of nonsense?

Kessel made various great defensive plays throughout the game. He was not, in any way, shape or form responsible for any of the 4 goals.

The blind hatred for all things Kessel and Phaneuf is mind-boggling. Dion gets beat on the outside, still makes the winger get to the goal line before being able to take a shot. The goalie lets in a goal from the goal line. It's all Dion's fault.

Kessel brings nothing offensively to his game. Plays good defense and breaks up a minimum of 4 scoring chances. People go from saying:

"Kessel sucks, when he's not producing, he doesn't play defense"

To:

"Kessel sucks, he didn't score last game, he looks fat and is obviously out of shape"

 

[Trapper]

Do you people even watch the games, or is it just so much easier to rattle off a whole bunch of nonsense?

Kessel made various great defensive plays throughout the game. He was not, in any way, shape or form responsible for any of the 4 goals.

The blind hatred for all things Kessel and Phaneuf is mind-boggling. Dion gets beat on the outside, still makes the winger get to the goal line before being able to take a shot. The goalie lets in a goal from the goal line. It's all Dion's fault.

Kessel brings nothing offensively to his game. Plays good defense and breaks up a minimum of 4 scoring chances. People go from saying:

"Kessel sucks, when he's not producing, he doesn't play defense"

To:

"Kessel sucks, he didn't score last game, he looks fat and is obviously out of shape"

Do you read posts or just make assumptions much like not watching the games?
Nowhere does this post say Kessel must score 3 goals/game or he's garbage.
Now here's what I saw from game 1:
Kessel was sluggish for the first 2 periods but coming off an injury so understandable. He got faster in the 3rd. He made 2 good back checks on Pacs. Excellent do that and you don't need a hat trick. After that he started making bad descions on the PP forcing passss that were picked off that weren't necessary. Forcing plays that lead to turnovers in tight games are just a bad as the not back checking that he gets criticized for. And can be corrected much easier than the back checking issue.
There that is my unbiased opinion of what I saw.
Can you be that objective or just put on your Kessel jersey and tell us we are all ignorant because you don't like what we say?

 

[Suntouchable13]

Do you people even watch the games, or is it just so much easier to rattle off a whole bunch of nonsense?

Kessel made various great defensive plays throughout the game. He was not, in any way, shape or form responsible for any of the 4 goals.

The blind hatred for all things Kessel and Phaneuf is mind-boggling. Dion gets beat on the outside, still makes the winger get to the goal line before being able to take a shot. The goalie lets in a goal from the goal line. It's all Dion's fault.

Kessel brings nothing offensively to his game. Plays good defense and breaks up a minimum of 4 scoring chances. People go from saying:

"Kessel sucks, when he's not producing, he doesn't play defense"

To:

"Kessel sucks, he didn't score last game, he looks fat and is obviously out of shape"

What I don't like is that the line is not good defensively at all as a whole. It is centered by a centre that is playing way above where he really should. You can disagree, but Bozak is a big problem on that line.

 

[Gramsci]

Kessel does what he is suppose to do i.e. score goals and be ppg or close to ppg over 82 games.

The problem on the 1st line is not Kessel or JVR. Its ****ing Bozak. 1C should be played by a pivot that knows how to drive possession and is good at zone exits.

Its been 5 years of garbage as 1C its time to move on and skilled players play center on the first line and first unit PP.

It is a joke that Bozak is a center on the 1st line and gets 1st PP time for 5 years and has not yet cracked 50 points or a 20 goal barrier in NHL.

Its unheard off unless of-course its the leafs

This.

I'll give him credit for making a big bag of money from hanging off Phil Kessel, but he doesn't belong on the first line (or any line on this team). If this new fangled analytics department is worth anything, they'll see to it that this guy is replaced on the top line.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

If this new fangled analytics department is worth anything, they'll see to it that this guy is replaced on the top line.

Well, considering the author of this article was hired....

 

[Gramsci]

Well, considering the author of this article was hired....

Nice.

 

[pcruz]

Do you read posts or just make assumptions much like not watching the games?
Nowhere does this post say Kessel must score 3 goals/game or he's garbage.
Now here's what I saw from game 1:
Kessel was sluggish for the first 2 periods but coming off an injury so understandable. He got faster in the 3rd. He made 2 good back checks on Pacs. Excellent do that and you don't need a hat trick. After that he started making bad descions on the PP forcing passss that were picked off that weren't necessary. Forcing plays that lead to turnovers in tight games are just a bad as the not back checking that he gets criticized for. And can be corrected much easier than the back checking issue.
There that is my unbiased opinion of what I saw.
Can you be that objective or just put on your Kessel jersey and tell us we are all ignorant because you don't like what we say?

I don't own a Kessel jersey. In fact, the only hockey jersey I own is one of the player I enjoyed and sympathized most - Gary Roberts.

That being said, I would trade Roberts a thousand times out of a thousand for a top-end scorer.

There are so many facets of the game that bother me with every player on the team. However, I'll accept the flaws of our best players much more readily than I will accept those of the lesser players.

Believe me, I don't understand how a guy can be so soft to take repeated punches to the face and not throw one back.
I don't understand how players on this team continually make the lazy drop pass when entering the offensive zone.
I don't understand how players shy away from physical contact along the boards.

Anyways this is what it all boils down to me:

Sports are all about maximizing the output of athletes. Utilize their strengths and work on/manage/mask their weaknesses.

If you expect Kessel to turn into Owen Nolan, you're going to be very upset.
If you expect Komarov to turn into Kovalev, you're going to be very upset.

 

[Bomber0104]

I don't own a Kessel jersey. In fact, the only hockey jersey I own is one of the player I enjoyed and sympathized most - Gary Roberts.

That being said, I would trade Roberts a thousand times out of a thousand for a top-end scorer.

There are so many facets of the game that bother me with every player on the team. However, I'll accept the flaws of our best players much more readily than I will accept those of the lesser players.

Believe me, I don't understand how a guy can be so soft to take repeated punches to the face and not throw one back.
I don't understand how players on this team continually make the lazy drop pass when entering the offensive zone.
I don't understand how players shy away from physical contact along the boards.

Anyways this is what it all boils down to me:

Sports are all about maximizing the output of athletes. Utilize their strengths and work on/manage/mask their weaknesses.

If you expect Kessel to turn into Owen Nolan, you're going to be very upset.
If you expect Komarov to turn into Kovalev, you're going to be very upset.

Incorrect.

The Leafs modus operandi is to win games.

Not inflate any one individual's personal statistics.

Yes, even Phil Kessel..

 

[mikeo1]

First of all I wouldn't give a **** if Kessel were 300 pounds if he could constantly put up 40 goals, and 100 points. Kessel was touted as one of the top snipers in the league just a few years ago and he is still yet to put up 40 as a 27 year old. Doughty is a 24 year old x2 gold medal, x2 Stanley Cup, Olympic/NHL All Star, and Norris winner. Doughty needs to be big (not fat) because he plays a 200 foot game, and goes into the dirty areas. There is no need for Kessel to have excess body weight considering all he does is cherry pick , and shoot when he reaches the faceoff circle. You think that has anything to do with the 1st lines Advanced Stats problem?

At the end of the day you're posting pictures of Doughty wearing a hoodie, and suit while calling him fat.

And you're posting photos of kessel in T shirt to prove your point. What's your point?
I'm not saying kessel is doughtys equal. You've invented that argument in your mind. All I'm saying is that the guy you're lauding as a fitness demigod is just as fat as Kessel by your own criteria (unflattering photoraphs). No, a double chin is not muscle. Its fat.

Kessel is one of the top scorers in the game. He is amongst the fastest and most heavily used forwards in the game. He is also one of the most consistently healthy forwards in the game. Outside of unflattering pictures of him wearing loose clothing, there is no evidence that hes out of shape. That's the doughty analogy.

 

[Faltorvo]

I think fat phil is adverse to discomfort.

be that pain , people telling him what and how to do it, putting in that extra effort in the gym and on the ice, name it, if it does not fully jive with fat phil, it's a no go.

he was caudle , set on a high pedestal and placated to by most of his coach's down there ( to further their own careers, who cares what the finished product looks like, look what he did when I had him) and this is what ya get.

 

[Lobstertainment]

Carlyle is trying to see how far he can push before he gets fired. After last season you'd think it'd be not far but he's a feisty one he is.

 

[Faltorvo]

Kessel does what he is suppose to do i.e. score goals and be ppg or close to ppg over 82 games.

The problem on the 1st line is not Kessel or JVR. Its ****ing Bozak. 1C should be played by a pivot that knows how to drive possession and is good at zone exits.

Its been 5 years of garbage as 1C its time to move on and skilled players play center on the first line and first unit PP.

It is a joke that Bozak is a center on the 1st line and gets 1st PP time for 5 years and has not yet cracked 50 points or a 20 goal barrier in NHL.

Its unheard off unless of-course its the leafs

oh is that it?,

that's where the 10th highest cap hit in the league ends?

well with that kind of thinking

I am not surprised what little we have managed in the past 6 years.