The Star: Toronto Maple Leafs head coach Randy Carlyle takes jab at Phil Kessel and Tyler Bozak

[Coaches Coroner]

One of my favourite thinkers, yes.

Thought the name was too familiar to be coincedence. Definitely an important person, quite ahead of his time. Not too many usernames based on early 1900's writers/political philosophers, stuck out to me lol.

 

[officialmark*]

If anyone here takes Kessel over Ovechkin they're not all there.

 

[zeke]

Personally I don't know what Boston and LA were thinking when they made their Cup winning rosters..

Not having a single one-dimensional PPG winger getting paid franchise money?

Their top scorers got like 70 points.

Clearly they don't know what they're doing.

They just got lucky winning those Stanley Cups.

2013-14 Kings: M.Gaborik, $7.5m
2012-13 Hawks: P.Kane, $6.3m

 

[Purity*]

Hes actually only worth 6.3m this season. All I ask is for Phil Kessel to be on the ice for more goals for than goals against, that shouldnt be a tainting task for an 8m a year player, and as you guys say one of the best in the world. Kane seems to do it year after year.

You don't think that has anything to do with the team he plays on, does it? No, of course not, that would make your argument look like total garbage. Can't have that.

I cannot wrap my head around how people cannot understand this.

 

[silentbob37*]

2013-14 Kings: M.Gaborik, $7.5m
2012-13 Hawks: P.Kane, $6.3m

While Gaborik isn't a great individual defensive player, he does buy into the Kings system (he wouldn't be there if he didn't). It is debatable at best if Kessel has done the same with the Leafs and their coaches defensive systems.

 

[silentbob37*]

You don't think that has anything to do with the team he plays on, does it? No, of course not, that would make your argument look like total garbage. Can't have that.

I cannot wrap my head around how people cannot understand this.

Yes Kane plays on a better team, but coudn't you also argue/say that Kane's play is part of what makes the Hawks a better team?

 

[Purity*]

Yes Kane plays on a better team, but coudn't you also argue/say that Kane's play is part of what makes the Hawks a better team?

You could absolutely say that.

Problem though, Kane is not known for his defensive prowess nor was he ever a good defensive player in his career, exact same as Kessel.

Here's where it goes wrong though. Kane has a supporting cast consisting of Keith/Seabrook/Hossa/Toews/Saad/Sharp/Hjalmarrson. That is FAR SUPERIOR to what the Leafs have. I also love this rhetroic that "Kane doesn't even play with Toews." Uhh yeah, he plays against SECONDARY defensive units and such. That is an advantage, make no mistake about it. That's the difference between facing Doughty or Voynov, or Weber or whoever. He still gets #1 PP time anyway so it doesn't even matter.

People are twisting their own narrative and ignore things like the above just so they can bash Kessel.

 

[Trapper]

You don't think that has anything to do with the team he plays on, does it? No, of course not, that would make your argument look like total garbage. Can't have that.

I cannot wrap my head around how people cannot understand this.

Rick Nash played for the Jackets for 10 years. 4 playoff games. The team wasn't good. Wasn't going anywhere. They even tried bringing in Carter and signing FA's like Wiz. Still a bad team. A new philosophy was needed. They finished low, (drafted what appears to be their franchise C at #4 overall, acquired as many picks/assets as they could and eventually moved Nash. It had nothing to do with Nash not being a good player. Nothing. It was the team just couldn't do it.

We all know it's not Kessel's fault.
It's not Bozak's fault for being used as a no. 1 C.
But it just doesn't work.

I cannot wrap my head around how people cannot understand this.

 

[Faltorvo]

Rick Nash played for the Jackets for 10 years. 4 playoff games. The team wasn't good. Wasn't going anywhere. They even tried bringing in Carter and signing FA's like Wiz. Still a bad team. A new philosophy was needed. They finished low, (drafted what appears to be their franchise C at #4 overall, acquired as many picks/assets as they could and eventually moved Nash. It had nothing to do with Nash not being a good player. Nothing. It was the team just couldn't do it.

We all know it's not Kessel's fault.
It's not Bozak's fault for being used as a no. 1 C.
But it just doesn't work.

I cannot wrap my head around how people cannot understand this.

They also shipped out Carter, to "reset things".

That was a whopping 13 million in cap space out with those two players.

 

[Clark4Ever]

If Kessel doesn't get his act together by the time age catches up to him in a couple of years, he is going to regress hard and fast.

If he becomes dedicated to his off ice conditioning, he could be an elite player for many years to come.

 

[Durrr]

Rick Nash played for the Jackets for 10 years. 4 playoff games. The team wasn't good. Wasn't going anywhere. They even tried bringing in Carter and signing FA's like Wiz. Still a bad team. A new philosophy was needed. They finished low, (drafted what appears to be their franchise C at #4 overall, acquired as many picks/assets as they could and eventually moved Nash. It had nothing to do with Nash not being a good player. Nothing. It was the team just couldn't do it.

We all know it's not Kessel's fault.
It's not Bozak's fault for being used as a no. 1 C.
But it just doesn't work.

I cannot wrap my head around how people cannot understand this.

Maybe we actually have solid pieces outside of Kessel more then people not understanding?

 

[Peasy]

You don't think that has anything to do with the team he plays on, does it? No, of course not, that would make your argument look like total garbage. Can't have that.

I cannot wrap my head around how people cannot understand this.

Go look at Kyle Turris' numbers and then look at the rest of his teams last year bud.

 

[Peasy]

Maybe we actually have solid pieces outside of Kessel more then people not understanding?

Do we have a number one centre? No. Do we have any strong defensive wingers in the top 6? No. Do we have a number 1 D man? No. We don't even know if we have a number 1 goalie atm. So please tell me these solid pieces that we have, and don't tell me about "potential" because that is not guaranteed...

 

[silentbob37*]

You could absolutely say that.

Problem though, Kane is not known for his defensive prowess nor was he ever a good defensive player in his career, exact same as Kessel.

Here's where it goes wrong though. Kane has a supporting cast consisting of Keith/Seabrook/Hossa/Toews/Saad/Sharp/Hjalmarrson. That is FAR SUPERIOR to what the Leafs have. I also love this rhetroic that "Kane doesn't even play with Toews." Uhh yeah, he plays against SECONDARY defensive units and such. That is an advantage, make no mistake about it. That's the difference between facing Doughty or Voynov, or Weber or whoever. He still gets #1 PP time anyway so it doesn't even matter.

People are twisting their own narrative and ignore things like the above just so they can bash Kessel.

He isn't great, but his HARD is much better then Kessels

I don't know as mucha bout the Hawks systems, but if Kane buy into their systems the way Gaborik buys into the Kings, and in a way that Kessel doesn't/hasn't here....even if they are equalivant defensively, Kane would contribute to the teams overall defense to a larger degree.

Aren't you twisting things, ignoring the contribution Kane makes to fit your own narrative? I know its popular to say that you switch the two players andt he Hawks wouldn't miss a beat, but that may not be the case.

 

[Faltorvo]

Do we have a number one centre? No. Do we have any strong defensive wingers in the top 6? No. Do we have a number 1 D man? No. We don't even know if we have a number 1 goalie atm. So please tell me these solid pieces that we have, and don't tell me about "potential" because that is not guaranteed...

Berny played in 55 games last year and set a season franchise high with a .923 sv%, his performance last season compared to the elites last year and it got us what?

8th last?

That's a pretty damning testament of what this roster is.

 

[Faltorvo]

He isn't great, but his HARD is much better then Kessels

I don't know as mucha bout the Hawks systems, but if Kane buy into their systems the way Gaborik buys into the Kings, and in a way that Kessel doesn't/hasn't here....even if they are equalivant defensively, Kane would contribute to the teams overall defense to a larger degree.

Aren't you twisting things, ignoring the contribution Kane makes to fit your own narrative? I know its popular to say that you switch the two players andt he Hawks wouldn't miss a beat, but that may not be the case.

lmao ya so true

ask hawks fans what they would think of a player to player swap.

heck they should be thrilled, they will save 2.5 million in cap and "not skip a beat"

 

[Trapper]

Maybe we actually have solid pieces outside of Kessel more then people not understanding?

Let's take Kessel out of this conversation. All the Leafs at the moment.
Pretend you don't know anything about the Leafs and are just I businessman.
I hire you because my business (team) is not good.
I tell you in order to have a solid team I need:
1. President
2. GM
3. Coach
4. Assistants
5. Core
6. Support players
7. Goaltender

I've changed everything in my organization except #5 and I still don't have a good team.
What's your advice?
Now I'm all for giving this thing the full year. All for giving Shanny the chance to evaluate. But if this team stinks again, where is the problem now?

 

[Faltorvo]

Let's take Kessel out of this conversation. All the Leafs at the moment.
Pretend you don't know anything about the Leafs and are just I businessman.
I hire you because my business (team) is not good.
I tell you in order to have a solid team I need:
1. President
2. GM
3. Coach
4. Assistants
5. Core
6. Support players
7. Goaltender

I've changed everything in my organization except #5 and I still don't have a good team.
What's your advice?
Now I'm all for giving this thing the full year. All for giving Shanny the chance to evaluate. But if this team stinks again, where is the problem now?

We agree on many things trapper but not on this per say.

Not the full year part.

Not with this draft coming up and this many pending UFAs.

Last year should have been the "make it or break it season" and they broke it.

 

[Trapper]

We agree on many things trapper but not on this per say.

Not the full year part.

Not with this draft coming up and this many pending UFAs.

Last year should have been the "make it or break it season" and they broke it.

Fair enough. I would of been on board with that plan.
Maybe even by January we will have the big picture. Since the Olympics last year we were the worst team (point wise in the NHL).

 

[Peasy]

Berny played in 55 games last year and set a season franchise high with a .923 sv%, his performance last season compared to the elites last year and it got us what?

8th last?

That's a pretty damning testament of what this roster is.

So far in Berniers career he hasn't been very durable, which is a huge factor in being a true number 1 or not.

 

[Faltorvo]

So far in Berniers career he hasn't been very durable, which is a huge factor in being a true number 1 or not.

Well yes, that is a lingering question mark, no doubt about that.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Incorrect.

The Leafs modus operandi is to win games.

Not inflate any one individual's personal statistics.

Yes, even Phil Kessel..

I don't really think you understood his point. You win games by getting the most out of your team, and you do that by making sure to use their strengths and hide their weakness.