Sportsnet: Toronto interested in Bernier.

[Jerkini]

Pens fans probably said that about Tomas Vokoun when they traded for him.

Vokoun was headed to unrestricted free agency. Pittsburgh traded a 7TH ROUND DRAFT PICK for Tomas Vokoun. Are we going to get Jonathan Bernier for a 7th round draft pick? Not quite.

 

[The Blue Devil]

We're all aware of that. It really doesn't bear repeating. Nobody is arguing that Reimer doesn't have a better save percentage at the NHL level than Bernier. Nobody is saying that Bernier is necessarily better than Reimer right now, or that he'll ever necessarily be better. The argument is that Bernier has less kinks in his game that need working out and a higher ceiling than Reimer, and that, at the right price, it wouldn't hurt to have a guy like that in the system when our #1 goalie is relatively unproven in terms of playing 60+ games a season at a consistently high level, and has question marks surrounding his glove hand, rebound control, puck-handling, etc.

Nobody is saying he didn't have a good season and doesn't deserve every opportunity to repeat that come October. We're just saying it's ridiculous to act like we have Henrik Lundqvist in net and shouldn't bother spending one second of our time even entertaining the idea of improving at the goaltending position.

Besides, at the end of the day it isn't even really about Reimer vs. Bernier. It's about insurance. It wouldn't hurt at all to have two good goalies with upside.

The guy that edge was responding to said exactly that...

The glove hand argument is getting really weak. Every player shoots for the glove hand on every goalie, not just Reimer. They do it because it has a higher chance of going in because most goalies use the Butterfly. Judging from your statement I guess that wouldn't want Crawford on your team and that Bernier is better than him as well? I would also like to know how you know that Bernier doesn't have a weak glove hand? I highly doubt that you've watched him extensively to form this conclusion, you're just basing your opinion off of hype and draft position like most others in this thread.

I do agree that it would be nice to have another good goalie for "insurance", but I disagree that Bernier has so much more potential. They're the same age and Reimer has already shown so much more then Bernier. While you could argue that he hasn't been given the opportunity to show that he could be better, you could also argue that he also hasn't played enough to notice the flaws in his game.

 

[The Blue Devil]

You want to use sv% alone to measure a goalies worth? Try watching some hockey. James Reimer built a .924% stopping easy shots from the point and side boards all year. Anybody who doesn't have blue coloured goggles on and watches him see all kinds of fatal flaws that will keep him from reaching the next level. Honestly Reimer has played above expectations and we wanna count on that and that alone? Yikes.

And you're pumping a goalie that has proven nothing.

 

[egd27]

We're all aware of that. It really doesn't bear repeating. Nobody is arguing that Reimer doesn't have a better save percentage at the NHL level than Bernier. Nobody is saying that Bernier is necessarily better than Reimer right now, or that he'll ever necessarily be better. The argument is that Bernier has less kinks in his game that need working out and a higher ceiling than Reimer, and that, at the right price, it wouldn't hurt to have a guy like that in the system when our #1 goalie is relatively unproven in terms of playing 60+ games a season at a consistently high level, and has question marks surrounding his glove hand, rebound control, puck-handling, etc.

Nobody is saying he didn't have a good season and doesn't deserve every opportunity to repeat that come October. We're just saying it's ridiculous to act like we have Henrik Lundqvist in net and shouldn't bother spending one second of our time even entertaining the idea of improving at the goaltending position.

Besides, at the end of the day it isn't even really about Reimer vs. Bernier. It's about insurance. It wouldn't hurt at all to have two good goalies with upside.

Yes, that is the argument.

We get to hear about Bernier's superior glove, rebound control, and puck handling, what we don't seem to hear anything about are the weaknesses that have resulted in not having a better save % or winning %.

I don't have a strong opinion of Bernier as I don't watch the Kings play much, and I don't have a big issue with acquiring him at the right price.

However, the poster I was responding to was basically saying Reimer does not possess any of the qualities of a good goalie. My response was that his results suggest otherwise.

 

[Duffman955]

Go look at some of the shot charts from Leafs games this year. Not that Reimer never made any big saves (in particular I remember him single-handedly winning a game for us against the Devils), but considering how we were routinely out-shot and spent so much time in our own end, there's no doubt we would have been steamrolled this season if we weren't one of the best teams in the league at holding the opposition to the outside and keeping the high-percentage scoring chances low.

Go look at the shot charts for Bernier, they are nearly empty.

 

[CerebralDevil]

I really do not like the the thought of trading assets for a 1B goalie who unproven and Nonis could use that to improve the defensive core. I hope its a false report to get teams to ante up more.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Yes, that is the argument.

We get to hear about Bernier's superior glove, rebound control, and puck handling, what we don't seem to hear anything about are the weaknesses that have resulted in not having a better save % or winning %.

I don't have a strong opinion of Bernier as I don't watch the Kings play much, and I don't have a big issue with acquiring him at the right price.

However, the poster I was responding to was basically saying Reimer does not possess any of the qualities of a good goalie. My response was that his results suggest otherwise.

Which qualities does Reimer posses? He has size & mobility. That's it. Those will only carry you so far. His actual talent level is very low. He cannot close his hand on a puck, listen.. If he got beat a little more than often to the glove side i would be okay with that, because as you said- shooters aim glove side. It's his inability to catch the ones he stops that really raises alarm bells to me. He reminds me of the chuck knoblauch of goalies. (Any baseball fans?) again, I won't repeat the obvious poor rebound control and atrocious puck handling ability. Adding a Bernier for a couple of pieces we have in abundance (tweener wingers) and a mid pick, as someone to at minimum push Reimer to improve and at best out play him is a mo brainer

 

[Clark4Ever]

Which qualities does Reimer posses? He has size & mobility. That's it. Those will only carry you so far. His actual talent level is very low. He cannot close his hand on a puck, listen.. If he got beat a little more than often to the glove side i would be okay with that, because as you said- shooters aim glove side. It's his inability to catch the ones he stops that really raises alarm bells to me. He reminds me of the chuck knoblauch of goalies. (Any baseball fans?) again, I won't repeat the obvious poor rebound control and atrocious puck handling ability. Adding a Bernier for a couple of pieces we have in abundance (tweener wingers) and a mid pick, as someone to at minimum push Reimer to improve and at best out play him is a mo brainer

Exactly.

For the record, although Reimer played very well at times in the first round, he also let in several weak goals throughout the series, and he bares a great deal of responsibility for the collapse in game seven. I can't help but wonder if a goaltender with more composure and a better grasp of basic fundamentals would have gotten us past the Bruins. We were the better team overall, we generated more quality scoring chances, and we still lost.

I'm sorry, but it needs to be stated, and I'm glad that management is cognisant of the need to upgrade in goal.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

We get to hear about Bernier's superior glove, rebound control, and puck handling, what we don't seem to hear anything about are the weaknesses that have resulted in not having a better save % or winning %

That's because the people arguing against the idea of acquiring Bernier generally don't seem to know what in the bloody blue hell they're on about, so they repeatedly quote the same tired stat lines, speak in generalities and create silly, simple-minded narratives based on those stat lines (i.e. 'the Kings are an overall superior defensive team than the Leafs, therefore Bernier's SV% would necessarily drop if he played here instead'.... or, my personal favourite, 'Toskala was also thought of as a back-up with starting upside, therefore we should never bother taking a look at another goalie in the same situation ever again'). Because, as we all know, when the situation is comparable, it doesn't matter who it is, they will inevitably fail because Toskala did, amirite?

 

[Brown Dog]

I really do not like the the thought of trading assets for a 1B goalie who unproven and Nonis could use that to improve the defensive core. I hope its a false report to get teams to ante up more.

I agree. Reimer has earned the chance to run with the ball and not be thrown into an instant goalie controversy. Not to say we're necessarily rock solid in net, but I don't see that goaltending is a major issue in need of spending assets to upgrade.

I'd rather see Reimer have a chance to work on his game by playing and not have people clamoring for Bernier to replace him at the first sign of trouble.

For people who are so eager to throw Frattin into this deal, aren't we better off graduating players like Frattin into roles vacated by overpriced veteran pending UFAs (I'm looking at you MacArthur)?

 

[frantiq]

Hearing that #Leafs are still very much involved in Jonathan Bernier trade discussion w/#LAKings. Matt Frattin could be in the mix.

https://twitter.com/Berger_BYTES/status/348508063034114049

 

[egd27]

That's because the people arguing against the idea of acquiring Bernier generally don't seem to know what in the bloody blue hell they're on about, so they repeatedly quote the same tired stat lines, speak in generalities and create silly, simple-minded narratives based on those stat lines (i.e. 'the Kings are an overall superior defensive team than the Leafs, therefore Bernier's SV% would necessarily drop if he played here instead'.... or, my personal favourite, 'Toskala was also thought of as a back-up with starting upside, therefore we should never bother taking a look at another goalie in the same situation ever again'). Because, as we all know, when the situation is comparable, it doesn't matter who it is, they will inevitably fail because Toskala did, amirite?

I've neither asserted his save % would drop here, nor have I made any comparisons to Toskala, so you're not right.

I'm saying I have no problem acquiring him at the right price. But whether you're tired of hearing them or not, the facts are his winning % and save % are lower while playing on a better team.

Maybe he comes here and is the answer to all of our goaltending prayers, but there are obviously flaws to his game or his results would be superior to the poor glove hand, bad rebound control, awful puck handling schmo that's been guarding our nets for the past couple of years.

Whether people want to admit that or not, is another story.

 

[SkyDome]

Well overpaying for "maybe's" turned out great for the Leafs! See: Raycroft, Toskala, etc.

I understand why Nonis is interested but he needs to be very careful with this. Frattin and a 2nd is the most I'd give for Bernier and even then I think it's pushing it.

Nonis is trying to build from the goal out. He was very successful when he did that in the past for Luongo. Having Reimer-Bernier on the same team would be one of the best young tandems in the league.

Don't be surprised if Nonis selects Zack Fucale or one of the other strong goalie prospect in this year's draft.

 

[Dangles McGavin]

So down for Bernier if he comes at a reasonable price.

 

[Duke Silver]

Vokoun was headed to unrestricted free agency. Pittsburgh traded a 7TH ROUND DRAFT PICK for Tomas Vokoun. Are we going to get Jonathan Bernier for a 7th round draft pick? Not quite.

No, but getting Bernier is a long-term investment, thus the higher price.

He also has re-sale value into the future.

 

[Kbs]

I don't see the issue with acquiring Bernier. A tandem of Reimer and Bernier sounds really appealing if the cost isn't ridiculous.

I also don't really understand why people (not necessarily from this thread as I haven't read it) claim the Leafs are dragging Reimer through the mud by acquiring Bernier... Reimer hasn't shown he can handle being the undisputed #1 over an 82 game season yet. A tandem of Reimer and Bernier would be an amazing way of keeping both of them rested and having a backup plan if one of them falters. Also, teams seem to be going with tandems more than a #1 goalie who plays 70+ games these days.

 

[snizzbone*]

I hope it has nothing to do with Gardiner and our 1st.

There is literally no way Nonis would deal Gardiner, unless we were getting Quick or something.

 

[Dangles McGavin]

There's a tweet circulating around that says Leafs' offer is Frattin + 1st for Bernier + 2nd

That's actually pretty fair. Tons of talent in the 2nd round and Bernier is probably better than anything we get in the first round.

Mind you, it's not a good source. Just some food for thought.

 

[egd27]

You want to use sv% alone to measure a goalies worth? Try watching some hockey. James Reimer built a .924% stopping easy shots from the point and side boards all year. Anybody who doesn't have blue coloured goggles on and watches him see all kinds of fatal flaws that will keep him from reaching the next level. Honestly Reimer has played above expectations and we wanna count on that and that alone? Yikes.

Nah, it was just a response to the "size" post before it.

I'm just trying to figure out how all these other goalies without Reimer's "fatal flaws" playing with actual NHL defensemen (not guys like Kostka, Holzer and Fraser) manage to let in so many goals.

Kind of baffling.

 

[Jerkini]

No, but getting Bernier is a long-term investment, thus the higher price.

He also has re-sale value into the future.

long term investment? buy high...sell higher? doubtful.

He doesn't make sense for this team. Reimer and him are practically the same age and one of them has proven a whole hell of a lot more playing on a team that almost everyone and their grandmother would say is significantly weaker.

 

[snizzbone*]

Yeah like I understand Bernier is a good young piece, but there is no reason for us to spend valuable assets on him when we could use them on something we desperately need, which as of now isn't another young goalie.

 

[Paradoc]

Yeah like I understand Bernier is a good young piece, but there is no reason for us to spend valuable assets on him when we could use them on something we desperately need, which as of now isn't another young goalie.

Frattin is not a valuable assest...

 

[SkyDome]

Looking at some of the highlights of our playoff run makes me think just how hard it would be to see Frattin go. He's the type of player this team lacks and he's a game breaker when you really need him. He slowed down a lot near the end of the regular season due to injury and RC wanting I give him a bit of press box time, but his play in the Boston series really made me a fan of him. He and Colborne really have something going and I'd hate to see him go in a trade for Bernier.

 

[bigempty]

There's a tweet circulating around that says Leafs' offer is Frattin + 1st for Bernier + 2nd

That's actually pretty fair. Tons of talent in the 2nd round and Bernier is probably better than anything we get in the first round.

Mind you, it's not a good source. Just some food for thought.

I'd take that deal if it was for our 2014 1st rd pick

 

[7even]

Frattin is not a valuable assest...

The 1st is.

How many 1sts does this franchise have to throw away before we realize it's a poor business strategy?