Trade: [TOR/SA] Leonard and Green to TOR for DeRozan, Poeltl and draft considerations

[Avs_19]

Which of Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Curry, Durant, or Paul is he better than?

I can't really see a case for Leonard over any of them, and a case could be made for Antetokounmpo as well.

We can argue his exact placement, but that's really immaterial. Upgrading from Derozan to Leonard isn't a big enough upgrade to change the team's fortunes. The Raptors are still clearly worse than the Sixers and Celtics. I guess this is a big enough upgrade to make sure that they stay ahead of the Pacers though, but somehow I don't think that was the point of the move.

The only two I'm taking over Kawhi for sure are LeBron and Durant. You could argue for Davis as well and I wouldn't have any complaints there. Kawhi's two-way ability puts him above the others for me, even though Curry and Harden are better offensive players. The last time Kawhi was healthy people were debating whose better between him and Durant and that wasn't crazy at the time.

I think this trade puts the Raptors right there with the Sixers and not too far behind the Celtics. The main difference between this team and past years would be that the Raptors will have the best player in any series against the East.

Leonard hasn't shown he can elevate the Spurs though. Once they became his team the Spurs have been mediocre. Every single player I named has shown the ability to carry a team on their back. Leonard only has 2 seasons of averaging 20+ points and only 1 season averaging in the 25+ range for a below average passer and rebounder you'd like to see him consistently putting up 25+. I realize Leonard is one of the best 2 or 3 defenders in the league and that this is a big part of his value, but still, he's only really had one truly top of the line season the way I see it.

Regardless of where Leonard is being ranked though, I don't see this as being good enough to get them past the Sixers or Celtics and therefore its a bad move. I think its even worse from the Spurs perspective because it shows they can't see the writing on the wall and are going to settle for being a middle of the pack team.

I'd say the Spurs truly became Kawhi's team in 2016 because that was the first year after Duncan. They won 61 games that year, he averaged 25.5 PPG in the regular season, 27.7 PPG in the playoffs, led the Spurs to the WCF, and they were up by 20+ points on the Warriors in game one before Zaza ended his season. He also finished third in both MVP and DPOY voting that year.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

The only two I'm taking over Kawhi for sure are LeBron and Durant. You could argue for Davis as well and I wouldn't have any complaints there. Kawhi's two-way ability puts him above the others for me, even though Curry and Harden are better offensive players. The last time Kawhi was healthy people were debating whose better between him and Durant and that wasn't crazy at the time

I think this trade puts the Raptors right there with the Sixers and not too far behind the Celtics. The main difference between this team and past years would be that the Raptors will have the best player in any series against the East.

This isn't necessarily true. This is assuming a lot of things.

1) Leonard can repeat his 2017 form (to date his only truly elite season)
2) Nobody on the Sixers/Celtics improves enough to challenge him

Would it be crazy if Embiid found some more consistency in his game and was the better player? Maybe if we get 2016 Leonard somebody like Simmons can improve enough to catch him. Maybe somebody like Tatum takes a monster step forward? If we get 2016 Leonard is he really significantly better than Irving? Probably not. Way better defensively obviously, but not as good offensively so its a wash.

If the Raptors do get 2017 Leonard (or somehow an even better version) then they do have that x factor. However was the problem that they didn't have that x factor, or was the problem that Lebron was simply too good? I suppose a little bit of both. Its no secret that Derozan didn't exactly step up and carry his team and in that respect Leonard might be able to, and with no Lebron in the picture maybe that will be enough. I for one though don't see this team any closer to a title today than I did yesterday.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

This isn't necessarily true. This is assuming a lot of things.

1) Leonard can repeat his 2017 form (to date his only truly elite season)
2) Nobody on the Sixers/Celtics improves enough to challenge him

Would it be crazy if Embiid found some more consistency in his game and was the better player? Maybe if we get 2016 Leonard somebody like Simmons can improve enough to catch him. Maybe somebody like Tatum takes a monster step forward? If we get 2016 Leonard is he really significantly better than Irving? Probably not. Way better defensively obviously, but not as good offensively so its a wash.

If the Raptors do get 2017 Leonard (or somehow an even better version) then they do have that x factor. However was the problem that they didn't have that x factor, or was the problem that Lebron was simply too good? I suppose a little bit of both. Its no secret that Derozan didn't exactly step up and carry his team and in that respect Leonard might be able to, and with no Lebron in the picture maybe that will be enough. I for one though don't see this team any closer to a title today than I did yesterday.

Kawhi finished 2nd in MVP voting in 2016 and won DPOY along with making 1st team All-NBA. Dude, I just don't think you know what you're talking about and suspect you're pretty much only looking at points per game.

 

[Club]

its a start

 

[Diddy]

I take harden durant lebron and a healthy AD over Leonard but I'm not a huge fan of leonard as it is.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

its a start

someone probably told him he can't sit out the entire year lol

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Also, I think the odds of Kawhi staying are getting underplayed a lot. Like, I too think he's LA bound in a year, but Torontos an interesting market for him specifically. They're really good at marketing(which I think he had some major issues with in San Antonio) and as a whole seem like kind of a perfect fit for Kawhi's apparent weird combination of wanting to be seen as a very big deal while also being an aloof recluse. It won't matter if all he wants is to go home and/or doesn't want to be in Toronto, but I dunno, I think they've got a better shot than most give them credit for(which obviously is not at all).

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Kawhi finished 2nd in MVP voting in 2016 and won DPOY along with making 1st team All-NBA. Dude, I just don't think you know what you're talking about and suspect you're pretty much only looking at points per game.

I know he did, and I feel he was grossly overrated because the team stayed good with Duncan retiring. He's no doubt an elite player and arguably the best defensive player in the league, but he's not going to change the Raptors fortunes. They'll do their usual and make the second round, maybe they even reach the ECF again by virtue of pulling off an upset against Philly or Boston, but I don't see them getting by both. Maybe they have another move up their sleeve. The Raptors definitely had problems, but the gap between Derozan and Leonard was not one of them.

Leonard has only one season in the top 5 in player efficiency rating, none in TS%, and none in usage %. Its not like I'm just looking at PPG here, and his injury is a huge question mark. A lot of people assumed Isaiah Thomas would be fine coming back from injury and his career is basically finished now. To just assume he's going to be fine is a big if. I'm not even upset at this in the sense that the Raptors have gambled away the next 2-3 seasons in exchange for a better shot at this one. I said after the season they either need to go all in or tear the whole thing down. This move though is not an all in move.

 

[Jack Straw]

Just to pile on... if healthy Kawhi is easily a top 5 player in the NBA. Only LeBron and Durant are better imo. That said I’m glad the Sixers didn’t trade for him. And he’s a fool if he really refuses to play for Toronto. No matter how good you are at some point you damage your reputation so much that the only option left is to play for the Knicks.

 

[kihei]

What a colossally stupid move by the Raptors. Short term gain (if that) for long term pain.

 

[N o o d l e s]

There's a lot of assuming in this thread that the Raptors will get a chance to play for an ECF. I would not be shocked at all if Toronto continues to collapse, are out of the race by mid-winter, and Kawhi is shipped out in February. This is a team that got absolutely embarrassed at their strongest, lost by 35 and went out with a whimper in game 4, has a first year coach, and a core of players who are likely bitter at management for "betraying them" by trading DeRozan. And their new superstar doesn't want to be here.

In a vacuum, Toronto wins this trade no question. In real life, I'm predicting total implosion.

 

[puckIuck]

they traded a career choker for a proven winner. spurs got fleeced

 

[Ivan13]

they traded a career choker for a proven winner. spurs got fleeced

They got a star player signed for years for a guy who would've been gone next offseason no matter what. If anything they made out extremely well, given that it looked they have their backs against the wall.

 

[Terry Yake]

it's not really a bad move for TOR at all

if kawhi's head is in the right place and he's healthy, they have the potential to make a deep playoff run in a lebron-less EC

if for whatever reason they do end up dealing him before the season starts or at the deadline then they just get a head start on a rebuild they were going to begin anyways

 

[Tuggy]

I like the trade personally for the Raptors, contingent of course on Leonard playing and playing to his full potential.

He is a much better player than DD and with Green, gives the Raptors a great defensive squad. They didn't give up OG either, which is nice.

If Leonard's head is in it then the Raps have a shot to go to the finals this year. After that, we'll see.

The only thing I would probably change is keeping Casey...

 

[darko]

its a start

That moment when your manager tells you that you can't sit out a year.

 

[cgf]

Trading him right away would be even stupider than acquiring him in the first place.

They should have talked to the guy before trading for him. They have wasted assets for someone that will be a distraction all year long, no matter what.

Life isn't a video game. Kawhi is much better than DeRozan, but the disruption his arrival (if he even comes) could have on the team and all the circus about will he/won't he re-sign isn't worth it.

What if he takes them to the finals? Would it be worth the circus then?

 

[Scandale du Jour]

What if he takes he finals to the finals? Would it be worth the circus then?

If he takes them to the finals, it means there likely wouldn't be a circus.

 

[Voight]

its a start

I think he realized a couple things.

1) Its going to cost him his entire salary from this past season
2) He had a 15% salary increase with the trade, so more coin is always nice
3) Whether he was in the right or not to sit out, his rep was hurt and sitting out an entire season would make him look like a petulant toddler.
4) While many believe he is still elite, he'll need to show teams he is the same guy who was MVP runner up twice and DPOY twice. If he has a solid regular season and a good playoff run, it'll really help him

I take harden durant lebron and a healthy AD over Leonard but I'm not a huge fan of leonard as it is.

I would only take LeBron, Durant and maybe AD. Harden is a better scorer but Leonard is miles better defensively.

I know he did, and I feel he was grossly overrated because the team stayed good with Duncan retiring. He's no doubt an elite player and arguably the best defensive player in the league, but he's not going to change the Raptors fortunes. They'll do their usual and make the second round, maybe they even reach the ECF again by virtue of pulling off an upset against Philly or Boston, but I don't see them getting by both. Maybe they have another move up their sleeve. The Raptors definitely had problems, but the gap between Derozan and Leonard was not one of them.

The team stayed good because of him. You're talking about a guy who in a 3/4 year span won FMVP, DPOYx2, MVP finalist x2, All NBA 1stx2, All NBA DEF x3 - all while being somewhat of an afterthought when mentioning the best players in the league.

& I don't see why they cant beat Philly or Boston. Their starting lineup has improved and their bench is still one of the best in the league. BOS/PHI have no answer for Leonard.

What a colossally stupid move by the Raptors. Short term gain (if that) for long term pain.

The Lowry-DeRozan duo wasn't going to get them anywhere and while they could try it one more time without Mr. James being in the conference they had a chance to acquire a top 5 player and they went for it. Lowry, Ibaka & DeRozan are all free agents in 2020 - the window was closing fast and they needed a shakeup.

If they don't do anything big this year and Leonard likely leaves, then they'll have a lame duck year to start to rebuild before saying goodbye to Lowry/Ibaka.

There's a lot of assuming in this thread that the Raptors will get a chance to play for an ECF. I would not be shocked at all if Toronto continues to collapse, are out of the race by mid-winter, and Kawhi is shipped out in February. This is a team that got absolutely embarrassed at their strongest, lost by 35 and went out with a whimper in game 4, has a first year coach, and a core of players who are likely bitter at management for "betraying them" by trading DeRozan. And their new superstar doesn't want to be here.

In a vacuum, Toronto wins this trade no question. In real life, I'm predicting total implosion.

This makes no sense - they improved tenfold without giving up any significant assets. Sure you might have chemistry issues at first but Kawhi seems like a pretty flexible player who doesn't need to run the offence, can leave it to Lowry. Not sure how this will implode a 59 win team.

As for a "first year coach" - hes been the top assistant for years and is the one who designed their entire offence. Casey was always more involved with the defence, he left the offence to Nurse. It'd be different if they had brought in someone from outside the organization but the players are already familiar with Nurse.

 

[cgf]

If he takes them to the finals, it means there likely wouldn't be a circus.

Cute, but ultimately meaningless since there is already a circus. Which is why I asked the question I asked.

 

[Voight]

This is an awful trade for both teams. Raptors get a little better, but not by any significant margin, whereas the Spurs get marginally worse. This is a trade by two teams who have no idea what direction they're going.

Spurs should be tearing it all down and should have looked for exclusively futures whereas the Raptors should have been looking at a way to add to their core, not exchange it.

Spurs tried to get futures - it didn't work. Lakers know he is going to sign with them next summer, Philly & Boston couldn't convince him to stay so they werent giving up any good picks/prospects.

Pop also doesn't want to coach a basement dweller in his final years.

 

[Dr Pepper]

I like the trade personally for the Raptors, contingent of course on Leonard playing and playing to his full potential.

He is a much better player than DD and with Green, gives the Raptors a great defensive squad. They didn't give up OG either, which is nice.

If Leonard's head is in it then the Raps have a shot to go to the finals this year. After that, we'll see.

The only thing I would probably change is keeping Casey...

That's one of the issues I have with it. I still don't feel like Casey was the problem, and Ujiri made a snap decision....he even said during the presser that Casey was a great coach. Replacing him with a very green option like Nurse, and then bringing in a malcontent like Kawhi, can be a recipe for disaster. How is Nurse going to lead the room? Will the players be listening? Will Kawhi, for that matter?

Also still wondering why Ujiri made that promise to DeRo that he wouldn't move him, if that was the plan all along. Maybe DeRo just misinterpreted something Ujiri said during a conversation, since there were reports from last season that the Raps were shopping him as well. He should fare quite well in San Antonio, at any rate.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Cute, but ultimately meaningless since there is already a circus. Which is why I asked the question I asked.

I would be happy as a fan if they reached the finals, but they will get slaughtered by GSW so what's the point? Accelerating the rebuilt is not a bad thing, I guess. I dunno.

 

[darko]

Bron/Durant/Davis/Harden - guys I'd take over Kawhi.

I'm biased when it comes to Harden.

 

[Dr Pepper]

I would be happy as a fan if they reached the finals, but they will get slaughtered by GSW so what's the point? Accelerating the rebuilt is not a bad thing, I guess. I dunno.

The rebuild hasn't started yet.....at least I hope not, since they just traded one of their better young players and a conditional first for a pending FA. That's what buyers do, not sellers.

That said, if things go south with this experiment they can certainly fetch a fair price for Kawhi at the deadline, kick-start things that way.