Confirmed with Link: [TOR-OTT] Phaneuf/Frattin/3 Others for Michalek/Greening/Cowen/Lindberg/2nd17

[seanlinden]

I guess you didn't read the TSN article about Cowen's unique contract status. I agree with the author.

I did. That's why he may have some value... but it's not like teams are going to be burning the phones up to get this guy in the offseason. Save something to the tune of $650k for next year, but pay for it the year after.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Or if you are a team like Ottawa, who is not a cap team and thus can focus more heavily on what Phaneuf brings as a player. Or if you are a coach, who pays no mind to what a player is worth financially, and just wants to ice his best team.

The 'merits of a player' are varied, and contract value is only one of them. I readily admit that Phaneuf was an overpaid top 4 dman. But that doesn't mean the amount of animus thrown his way is justified. Acting like his return is a clear reflection of his play on the ice is reductive.

Phaneuf is still a solid top 4 defenceman at this stage of his career. If he was earning 2-3 million less per season and had a shorter term on his contract, the return would have been substantial. As it turns out, the return was more than palatable under the circumstances. It's all relative because of his contract.

 

[diceman934]

Bob Mackenzie didnt seemed to thrilled with his potential... Called him a decent prospect or something along those lines.

Of course with hunter specifically targeting him, that means a lot too, potentially much more... But I thought it was interesting how bobby Mac seemed to call him a meh prospect.

Bobby Mac is horrible at talent evaluation of young players....

 

[WillNytheSwedishGuy]

Phaneuf is still a solid top 4 defenceman at this stage of his career. If he was earning 2-3 million less per season and had a shorter term on his contract, the return would have been substantial. As it turns out, the return was more than palatable under the circumstances. It's all relative because of his contract.

We agree in our assessments of the trade, and of Phaneuf's contributions as a player. I long for the days when this team contends and we can get back to focusing predominately (but not exclusively) on the latter type of evaluation.

 

[Crysis]

Bobby Mac is a horrible at talent evaluation of young players....

I thought he called him a really good, B prospect?

 

[seanlinden]

Posted this in the thread on the main boards... may be a useful perspective here.

If you're the Leafs, perhaps you look at this deal from the perspective of summer 2017. If we assume no further moves happen with the pieces acquired, the deal is essentially:

Dion Phaneuf, recently turned 32, with 4 years left on his deal at $7m.
for
Tobias Lindberg
A 2nd Round Pick in the upcoming draft
The RFA rights to Jared Cowen with a $4.5m qualifying offer.

There are circumstances under which I'd gladly make that deal (namely if we can add a high end young defenceman with size prior to), and circumstances which I wouldn't (unable to procure any high end defencemen).

This trade screams cart before horse to some degree, but also could be viewed as a bet on the Leafs ability to get that high end defenceman. Between Kadri/JvR/Komarov/Bozak/Marner/Nylander/Kapanen/Leivo/Brown/Lindberg, if they draft a forward with their #1 pick this year, they've likely got the group up front they need to be successful.

The question is, can they convert some of the expendable assets, and perhaps 1 or 2 of those guys, into somebody that can compliment Gardiner & Rielly in a solid top 4, on a timeline which fits with all those forwards (realizing that the draft basically isn't an option as defencemen take longer).

Anything they get out of Michalek and/or Cowen, a theoretical bonus to that.

 

[diceman934]

I can't speak for others but they had me at no salary retained , the 2nd plus the prospect was just gravy .



I guess you haven't been around here that often if you think his supporters weren't pimping him as a num 1 or at worst a first pair D .

I was happy as soon as I heard the no retaining of salary as well.....we got more then I thought. I still remember all the people who said that he would return a lot...

We made out like bandits in my eyes.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Posted this in the thread on the main boards... may be a useful perspective here.

If you're the Leafs, perhaps you look at this deal from the perspective of summer 2017. If we assume no further moves happen with the pieces acquired, the deal is essentially:

Dion Phaneuf, recently turned 32, with 4 years left on his deal at $7m.
for
Tobias Lindberg
A 2nd Round Pick in the upcoming draft
The RFA rights to Jared Cowen with a $4.5m qualifying offer.

There are circumstances under which I'd gladly make that deal (namely if we can add a high end young defenceman with size prior to), and circumstances which I wouldn't (unable to procure any high end defencemen).

This trade screams cart before horse to some degree, but also could be viewed as a bet on the Leafs ability to get that high end defenceman. Between Kadri/JvR/Komarov/Bozak/Marner/Nylander/Kapanen/Leivo/Brown/Lindberg, if they draft a forward with their #1 pick this year, they've likely got the group up front they need to be successful.

The question is, can they convert some of the expendable assets, and perhaps 1 or 2 of those guys, into somebody that can compliment Gardiner & Rielly in a solid top 4, on a timeline which fits with all those forwards (realizing that the draft basically isn't an option as defencemen take longer).

Anything they get out of Michalek and/or Cowen, a theoretical bonus to that.

Nikita Zaitsev is coming...

 

[Gabriel426]

No salary retained had me at hello.
Then the 2nd round pick is Le...wait for it...gendary..

Honest, it is a good hockey trade for both teams. Both teams are winners in my book.

 

[seanlinden]

Nikita Zaitsev is coming...

Yup. He'll be in a battle for a 3rd pairing spot. Between him, Hunwick, Percy, Harrington, Corrado & Valiev, I'm reasonably confident that they'll be able to form a reasonable bottom 1/2.

 

[613Leafer]

Zaitsev might become a ~#3 dman, or he might flame out and become AHL fodder. Really hard to tell. Id keep expectations low, and assume we need to address that area regardless of him signing here. If he does turn out as good as hoped, then all the better.

 

[seanlinden]

Zaitsev might become a ~#3 dman, or he might flame out and become AHL fodder. Really hard to tell. Id keep expectations low, and assume we need to address that area regardless of him signing here. If he does turn out as good as hoped, then all the better.

Even if he becomes a #3 dman (a major longshot), we're still looking for a #2. Realistically, he comes here next year, and he battles with the players I mentioned to stay in the lineup. We can talk about him moving up once he proves that he's better than what we already have.

It's a totally safe assumption to assume that we need a top pairing defenceman (or one who has a solid chance of reaching that potential) with size.

 

[hotpaws]

I was happy as soon as I heard the no retaining of salary as well.....we got more then I thought. I still remember all the people who said that he would return a lot...

We made out like bandits in my eyes.

and now that he's traded those people are spinning excuses or have disappeared just like they did when Kessel was traded

I should bump the thread when myself and a few others were getting torched by suggesting we should have traded him instead of giving him an extension , back then they were all about how he's worth more extended than as a rental .

 

[Gabriel426]

Zaitsev should be pretty good. He should be top 4.

 

[dimi78]

In a salary capped league, a player's contract has a tremendous impact on his market value, and his overall perception. That's just reality.

In Canada home of the fanatics of the hockey world the moment a player gets paid market value he's automatically viewed as overpaid. JVR good player right? Worth keeping him around right? The moment he signs market value he will be considered over paid and overrated by so many who want to keep him around. He's escaped a world of picking apart do to the fact his contract is beneath market value.

You want more examples of the silliness of the Canadian fan base just look no further to the reaction of signing one of the best goal scorers of this generation in Stamkos how he's getting picked apart like vultures on a dead carcass from these so called realists to be against paying him market value.... He's not even a Leaf yet and OVERRATED is already being thrown his direction.

What hasn't been accepted from the realist is the cap world in it's self that the top players don't hold the value that is perceived across the board. Some of it is do to the contract of the player but most of it is do to the lack of space league wide. Put Crosby on the Market and you think your going to get his worth in perception in return? Now put into context if Pittsburgh was looking to rebuild like the Leafs are sitting in last place further knocks his value down to where you get contract dumps in return for the best player in the world as he's perceived.

Some fans on here are multi sports fans and know full well that the day the NHL implemented the salary cap it was the end of high valued SIGNED top end players in trade. The trade market is dead and it's ALWAYS A BUYERS MARKET NOW. The faster we start to realize this the better off we'll be.

Just look around at the trade markets how it is in the other sports with the cap Basketball, Football well before the NHL implemented it? Some of us predicted this will happen and you will have salary cap trades and vary little of the way in market value trades ... Tom Brady probably nets you a couple of 2nd round picks right now. This is what the future of trades holds and as of yet needs to be accepted not just by fans but GM's who are a bit behind the eight ball in managing teams under a cap system to the counter parts of the other sports.

 

[Pucker77]

Assuming the Leafs prospects turn out well i hope the Leafs can fo something around JVR for Jacob Trouba.

With Byfuglien and Myers in Winnipeg for the forseeable future it has been speculated that Trouba may be available. The only 2 questions are 1) how much would the Jets ask for? 2) How much is Trouba asking for in his upcoming negotiations? It has been rumored that he is asking for $7 mil, but i dont know if i would pay that much right now.

 

[ITM]

and now that he's traded those people are spinning excuses or have disappeared just like they did when Kessel was traded

I should bump the thread when myself and a few others were getting torched by suggesting we should have traded him instead of giving him an extension , back then they were all about how he's worth more extended than as a rental .

There's extensions and there's extensions. Phaneuf served a purpose and that purpose has - in the end - resulted in good value. Who's to say what his trade value would have been. Much more than what transpired? I don't think "much more" necessarily.

I think in this whole process, we benefitted greatly in that Babcock as the then Wings coach was openly complimentary about Phaneuf. Same when he arrived as Toronto's bench boss. No varnish at all that he was a fan of Phaneuf and under Babcock, Phaneuf improved. Maybe not to term and salary but he improved.

I'm not certain there's any real issue to take up concerning timing and movement. Especially now with what was achieved.

 

[Menzinger]

I agree with Button, I wish that 2nd rounder was a 1st round (2016) pick

I believe Lou could have waited a bit

I think 1st round picks are going to be a very rare thing that's traded from now on.

GMs have finally realized they're the best way to get good young players.

 

[hotpaws]

There's extensions and there's extensions. Phaneuf served a purpose and that purpose has - in the end - resulted in good value. Who's to say what his trade value would have been. Much more than what transpired? I don't think "much more" necessarily.

I think in this whole process, we benefitted greatly in that Babcock as the then Wings coach was openly complimentary about Phaneuf. Same when he arrived as Toronto's bench boss. No varnish at all that he was a fan of Phaneuf and under Babcock, Phaneuf improved. Maybe not to term and salary but he improved.

I'm not certain there's any real issue to take up concerning timing and movement. Especially now with what was achieved.

In the end the original trade for Phaneuf accomplished nothing and his trade value as a rental would have certainly been at least a low to late 1st and at least a similar if not better prospect without any cap dumps that weren't expiring .

Why would Babs slag any of our players especially if the plan as it seems now was to do a pump and dump . If Babcock was so thrilled with Dion , he'd still be here .

 

[Bomber0104]

This was about three to four seasons too late but still the correct decision to make.

Very happy about the trade....

Never liked Phaneuf's game.

 

[Ovate]

I think 1st round picks are going to be a very rare thing that's traded from now on.

GMs have finally realized they're the best way to get good young players.

But they're not, really. If a team makes the playoffs and picks 15 or later, they have less than a 1/5 chance of getting a top 6/top 4 player.

Drafting is the best way to get good players, but they're concentrated at the top of the draft and then scattered throughout. To get them, you either need a very high pick, or a lot of picks. A single late first isn't that important.

 

[Kurtz]

I think 1st round picks are going to be a very rare thing that's traded from now on.

GMs have finally realized they're the best way to get good young players.

Yeah, the salary cap may have influenced that. You used to have big-spenders who'd deal their 1sts regularly (Ranges, Flyers...Leafs) because they could just fill any gaps through free agency. No longer possible.

Having said that, with so many teams now in the hunt at the deadline due to the extra point, it should theoretically be a seller's market nonetheless.

 

[sxvnert]

I think 1st round picks are going to be a very rare thing that's traded from now on.

GMs have finally realized they're the best way to get good young players.

If the talent is there at the deadline they'll move them. Also not an extremely deep draft year.

 

[Mathew]

Is greening going to minors or leafs?

 

[ITM]

In the end the original trade for Phaneuf accomplished nothing and his trade value as a rental would have certainly been at least a low to late 1st and at least a similar if not better prospect without any cap dumps that weren't expiring .

Why would Babs slag any of our players especially if the plan as it seems now was to do a pump and dump . If Babcock was so thrilled with Dion , he'd still be here .

There are numerous verifiable sources that confirm Detroit (and Babcock specifically) were after Dion Phaneuf until last year's trade deadline and then again up until the draft but couldn't reconcile his salary within the Red Wings' cap structure.

So there's no "if" or contrived Red Wings/Maple Leafs managerial conspiracy here...Mike Babcock's admiration for Phaneuf is/was real.

Whether or not the rest of the league shared his enthusiasm is unknown. That means you don't know what another team was/would be willing to part with. You also don't know whether or not a low/late first selected by Burke's/Nonis' management group would turn out to be anything more significant than Biggs. You don't know what the 2017 Ottawa 2nd round pick will yield in the hands of Hunter/Dubas, or where Lindberg will end up.

We got a very good return on an asset that at times didn't look movable for one reason or another. And for the pieces moved to acquire Phaneuf, I think management exceeded expectations.

Anything else is fruitless, baseless speculation.