Confirmed with Link: [TOR-OTT] Phaneuf/Frattin/3 Others for Michalek/Greening/Cowen/Lindberg/2nd17

[WilliamNylander]

Dion had Montreal, Ottawa and Boston on his allowed list.
i have to say - don't play chicken with Lou. he'll still trade you.

I heard this theory too. Putting down those teams because he thought they would never try and trade for him. If it's true I guess it backfired lol.

 

[613Leafer]

Meh, I doubt that's the reason he had Montreal, Ottawa, and Boston on there.

Maybe it's something as simple as preferring to play in markets with solid hockey fanbases, while also wanting to stay in the North-East near his off-season home in PEI.

 

[seanlinden]

I think the Leafs will very likely buy him out if he doesn't show some form at the NHL level, which is likely. His cap hit will be 500k year 1 and 1M year 2 after a buy out in June.

Do you think that's a good idea?

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Maybe a little picky but not sure how we can say this. Hagman was a reasonable/decent player in his day, and Stajan has had a long career as a 3C on the Flames. Also, there was White as well that went to Calgary. That's three NHL (regulars) players.

We have Michalek from this trade whom is definitely a NHL regular, and a 2nd and prospect. It's too early to say anything about the 2nd and prospect. Greening is an AHL player, and Cowen is a #7 defender and healthy scratch press box guy.

It seems like we are little too prone to revisionist history and eager to spin this as a much better return.

We traded 3 UFA who were not in our plans plus Hagman for Phaneuf, Sjostrom and Aulie. It was the definition of good asset management especially given what was traded away would the very next year be eating up more cap space than Phaneuf.

Agreed it was good asset management on that (previous) trade, but that is not the subject that I was talking about. I was referring to a post that compared the return of this recent Phaneuf trade to the (past) one between the Flames and ourselves. Let's not take things out of context.

 

[Silver91]

Do you think that's a good idea?

It'd basically be spreading out his cap hit in the AHL over 2 seasons, while freeing up a roster spot down there for real prospects. Considering the cap doesn't really matter to us, if he's not going to be on the NHL roster, I'd rather just buy him out and keep the roster spot for someone that is more likely to be part of our future.

 

[Swervin81]

Do you think that's a good idea?

Yeah. You get cap credit for one year (-$500k cap hit) and then have $1M against the cap for 1 year as opposed to $4M for 1 year. It's a total no brainer to buy him out.

 

[seanlinden]

It'd basically be spreading out his cap hit in the AHL over 2 seasons, while freeing up a roster spot down there for real prospects. Considering the cap doesn't really matter to us, if he's not going to be on the NHL roster, I'd rather just buy him out and keep the roster spot for someone that is more likely to be part of our future.

Yeah, I understand the implications.

I just don't see how it makes any sense to spread the cap penalty out over 2 seasons for a team that has no prospect of winning next year.

Yeah. You get cap credit for one year (-$500k cap hit) and then have $1M against the cap for 1 year as opposed to $4M for 1 year. It's a total no brainer to buy him out.

Given that we're rebuilding, you would think that the focus would be on ridding ourselves of bad contracts in the quickest manner, not making conscious decisions to extend them in an effort to reduce their immediate impact.

Greening makes absolutely no sense as a buyout candidate, given that.

Cowen (who you seem to be referring to) may hold value as a buyout candidate because of the "get relief now and pay me later" scheme, but certainly not to us.

 

[67Cup]

It's an even better idea for a team which is up against or over the cap for the coming year. That's why I think he may be flipped either at the deadline or the draft. It won't recoup a huge return but it will be more than the Leafs would get from doing the buyout themselves.

 

[saltming]

Yeah, I understand the implications.

I just don't see how it makes any sense to spread the cap penalty out over 2 seasons for a team that has no prospect of winning next year.



Given that we're rebuilding, you would think that the focus would be on ridding ourselves of bad contracts in the quickest manner, not making conscious decisions to extend them in an effort to reduce their immediate impact.

Option A: no buyout cost $4 million
Option B: buyout cost 1.5 million and frees up a contract space.
Choices are save money and get a contract slot or get more cap space more quickly.
So both choices have their perks. Ultimately it will depend on how quickly the leafs want that extra cap space and contrat space.

 

[Mad Brills*]

Dave poulin said that frattin will help the senators as a depth player.


LOL.

 

[SprDaVE]

Do you think that's a good idea?

I think so? Taking a contract spot. No upside. If he doesn't play like at least a bottom line player and is deemed just an AHL player, I don't think he's worth keeping at his cap hit. Not likely to have any value at all even with salary retention next season. What's the point in keeping that? I'd take the buyout cap hit over what he could do next year.

I could see him being bought out but I wouldn't care if he's kept around if they deem him at least a decent AHLer despite the cap hit. All though he's not even a decent AHLer at this point and would barely be a 4th liner on the Marlies.

 

[PuckMagi]

Dave poulin said that frattin will help the senators as a depth player.


LOL.

I still really like Frattin. I think he should have got a shot with the Leafs this year after having a strong AHL season last year.

I still think that he could be a good 2nd or 3rd line winger. I hope he gets a chance to play in the NHL and prove himself.

 

[Swervin81]

Yeah, I understand the implications.

I just don't see how it makes any sense to spread the cap penalty out over 2 seasons for a team that has no prospect of winning next year.



Given that we're rebuilding, you would think that the focus would be on ridding ourselves of bad contracts in the quickest manner, not making conscious decisions to extend them in an effort to reduce their immediate impact.

Greening makes absolutely no sense as a buyout candidate, given that.

Cowen (who you seem to be referring to) may hold value as a buyout candidate because of the "get relief now and pay me later" scheme, but certainly not to us.

That $1M of buyout money in 2 years won't affect us in the slightest way. We are not going to need that cap space yet. Free up a contract space for use on an actual prospect of meaning and have only a $1M cap hit for 1 year in 2017-18 (remember, we get cap credit for next year) >>>>> waste a contract spot and have a $4M cap hit for 1 year in 2016-17.

 

[SprDaVE]

I still really like Frattin. I think he should have got a shot with the Leafs this year after having a strong AHL season last year.

I still think that he could be a good 2nd or 3rd line winger. I hope he gets a chance to play in the NHL and prove himself.

Extremely doubtful. He's a depth player in the sense that he can go from the AHL the to the NHL if you need a player due to injuries. Waiver fodder instead of displacing your young upside players. If the Sens put him in a top 9 role in the NHL, they are in big time trouble.

I doubt he's even in the NHL past this season. Either on a 2-way deal or probably in the SHL.

 

[seanlinden]

Option A: no buyout cost $4 million
Option B: buyout cost 1.5 million and frees up a contract space.
Choices are save money and get a contract slot or get more cap space more quickly.
So both choices have their perks. Ultimately it will depend on how quickly the leafs want that extra cap space and contrat space.

If the Leafs need a contract spot, they'll move out guys from the bottom of the AHL lineup.

As for cap space, they're in no position to be loading up next year, to take penalties the year after. That's something a good team does.

 

[seanlinden]

That $1M of buyout money in 2 years won't affect us in the slightest way. We are not going to need that cap space yet. Free up a contract space for use on an actual prospect of meaning and have only a $1M cap hit for 1 year in 2017-18 (remember, we get cap credit for next year) >>>>> waste a contract spot and have a $4M cap hit for 1 year in 2016-17.

Nobody is in a position to say that we won't need that cap space in 2017-18.

 

[613Leafer]

Dave poulin said that frattin will help the senators as a depth player.


LOL.

Poulin is such a bozo.

Frattin couldn't make the Leafs, how exactly is he supposed to help the Senators? Heck, on the Marlies, Frattin was a depth player.

 

[Stephen]

I still really like Frattin. I think he should have got a shot with the Leafs this year after having a strong AHL season last year.

I still think that he could be a good 2nd or 3rd line winger. I hope he gets a chance to play in the NHL and prove himself.

Ship sailed on Frattin a long time ago.

 

[Liminality]

After thinking about the deal, over analyzing it and watching the game last night. I think I'm set in what I think about this trade.

At first glance I think the short term value is off. Seeing Phaneuf getting essentially 3 cap dumps, a prospect and a 2nd is alright but I think in my head I was expecting maybe a better prospect. Greening is just an expensive placeholder on the roster and provides no value. Michalek could possibly give the Leafs some sort of return next trade deadline and fills another temporary spot in the top 6 like PAP (but Milan's contract is too big and doubt he'll return as much). Cowen I think is the big wild card here. He's been absolutely garbage in the NHL recently but here's what I'm hoping. Babcock's system in the end goal has players thinking less and subconsciously reacting and anticipating to plays. If we can get Cowen to the point where he doesn't need to think and he follows the system, I think he could at least be a bottom pairing defender with size. Saying that, he has one and a half years to show his stuff before he's a RFA so not sure if he's going to make it. After reading up on Lindberg since I knew nothing of him, I've come away pleasantly surprised. Think he's a nice prospect who's been trending upwards and provides a different dimension to the rest of our current prospects. Think he fits in around the Leipsic ranking of prospects which is pretty good. The 2nd is a 2nd and is very useful in continuing to stock up the young assets.

Leafs are giving up Frattin who's 28 and despite having a good shot, has trouble sticking to the NHL in any capacity. Bailey is a project kinda like Frattin. I at least have a feint feeling Bailey will stick to the NHL on the 4th line in some capacity. Rupert could make the NHL is a similar 4th line roll but I kind of doubt it, probably career AHL player. Donaghey has the best potential out of all the secondary players being moved around. Not a huge loss considering where he was on the depth chart though.

The biggest thing and the point that I keep going back to that makes me like this trade is the no salary retention. They've made a gigantic move with their cap space and now have so many options to work with and to mould the team how they like is made that much easier. I fully trust with Lou and Shanny that they'll be very, very picky when it comes to using that cap space. They've got space and they're ready for when they need to resign a lot of players when they're coming off ELC's like Nylander and Marner and whoever they draft this year.

Watching the first game without Phaneuf I noticed a couple of things too. Rielly seemed like he was trying too much at the start and was maybe overthinking things. He got better as the game went on but you could tell he was immediately affected. Gardiner likewise got better as the game went on, much better to be honest. Ended the game with 25:40 and didn't look out of place and creating chances.

I think Phaneuf provided enough stability on the back end that our defence might look out of place for the rest of the season. Full tank mode engaged.


tldr
Short term we lose this trade, long term we definitely win this trade but was a good trade for both sides. I trust management with the enormous amount of cap space and how they'll use it in the next 5 or so years.

 

[seanlinden]

I think so? Taking a contract spot. No upside. If he doesn't play like at least a bottom line player and is deemed just an AHL player, I don't think he's worth keeping at his cap hit. Not likely to have any value at all even with salary retention next season. What's the point in keeping that? I'd take the buyout cap hit over what he could do next year.

I could see him being bought out but I wouldn't care if he's kept around if they deem him at least a decent AHLer despite the cap hit. All though he's not even a decent AHLer at this point and would barely be a 4th liner on the Marlies.

The contract spot thing is really overplayed. If the Leafs run out of contract spots, they'll do what they did with Grabner at the beginning of the season and Phaneuf today -- trade guys from the bottom of the pile in terms of prospects.

The point, is so that you don't mess yourself up for future seasons.

 

[SprDaVE]

The contract spot thing is really overplayed. If the Leafs run out of contract spots, they'll do what they did with Grabner at the beginning of the season and Phaneuf today -- trade guys from the bottom of the pile in terms of prospects.

The point, is so that you don't mess yourself up for future seasons.

It's definitely not overplayed, or else we wouldn't be making trades like the Grabner one as you said, which isn't done very often for a reason. Not a lot of teams are willing to take depth prospects and contract spots for a contract dump. And I don't think you understand how awful Greening has been. He's a waste of a roster spot even in the AHL.

I'd rather have a 500k + 1M cap hit over the next 2 years then to have him for one more season with the Marlies and his ~2M cap hit for one season.

Also, we're probably doing Greening a favour by buying him out. He gets a chance to perhaps sign a much smaller 2-way deal to have a better chance at the NHL as a depth player or perhaps even make a better living in the SHL.

We'll see how he does in a fresh environment I suppose. My bet is that he's just as bad and we will all forget his name by July 1st when he's in the UFA pool looking for a job.

 

[seanlinden]

It's definitely not overplayed, or else we wouldn't be making trades like the Grabner one as you said, which isn't done very often for a reason. Not a lot of teams are willing to take depth prospects and contract spots for a contract dump. And I don't think you understand how awful Greening has been. He's a waste of a roster spot even in the AHL.

I'd rather have a 500k + 1M cap hit over the next 2 years then to have him for one more season with the Marlies and his ~2M cap hit for one season.

Also, we're probably doing Greening a favour by buying him out. He gets a chance to perhaps sign a much smaller 2-way deal to have a better chance at the NHL as a depth player or perhaps even make a better living in the SHL.

We'll see how he does in a fresh environment I suppose. My bet is that he's just as bad and we will all forget his name by July 1st when he's in the UFA pool looking for a job.

I'll be clearer. It's overplayed on these boards. If the Leafs run into a contract situation, they'll make another Grabner-type trade, or lump somebody else in elsewhere. Or, better yet, you simply don't resign guys at the bottom of your depth chart.

Greening's level of play is irrelevant to the conversaton. He could be a 4th line ECHLer for all I care. This is entirely about "taking your lumps" now, living with his $1.8m cap hit next year, rather then spreading it out over 2 years.

There's nothing important we need that extra million bucks for next year to justify spreading the cap hit out.

 

[Stephen]

It would be a nice story to see Cowen regain his bluechip status and become a central component to the rebuild but I think it's more likely than not that he's not a good fit with the mobility, smarts, puck possession Babcock likes.

 

[saltming]

If the Leafs need a contract spot, they'll move out guys from the bottom of the AHL lineup.

As for cap space, they're in no position to be loading up next year, to take penalties the year after. That's something a good team does.

Oh I agree with you. There are many options for the leafs here. I was neither pro or con for option A or B.
Imo its all in what the leafs want to do save money or not save money would be the biggest deciding point imo.
Sacrifice a million in cap space for 1 year to save 2.5 million in the long run?
As you've pointed out and the leafs have proven, they can make contract space, so the question is which do they want more; overall savings or quicker cap space?

 

[seanlinden]

Oh I agree with you. There are many options for the leafs here. I was neither pro or con for option A or B.
Imo its all in what the leafs want to do save money or not save money would be the biggest deciding point imo.
Sacrifice a million in cap space for 1 year to save 2.5 million in the long run?
As you've pointed out and the leafs have proven, they can make contract space, so the question is which do they want more; overall savings or quicker cap space?

In a rebuilding mode, it absolutely has to be the approach of "pay me now".