Line Combos: TOR needs to **** or get off the pot in regards to our defense

[Fogelhund]

Yeah I'm aware. And Hainsey is a LHD playing as a RD. If the player is better I dont think their side should be a hang up.

Hainsey is a guy who has primarily played on the Right side in his career. He's kind of the exception.

Babcock, and the Leafs would prefer guys playing based on their handedness, and strong side otherwise.

We can disagree all we want, but the organization is run how it is now, so it is, what it is.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

That's an all offense core. Where's your defensive core? The argument the OP has made is valid. Time to get off the pot.

The problem you, OP, and others have is that you relate defensive prowess to ONLY the teams defensemen, when the forwards are just as much responsible for helping keep the puck out of the back of our net.

Here’s an interesting chart originally posted by @biotk regarding possession and zone exits over the past two seasons. Notice how a lot of outgoing players were absolutely horrific at getting the puck out, meaning that the Leafs were hemmed in their own zone for longer and having to deal with longer cycles by the opposition. Christ looking at the names in red it seems our entire bottom 6 was prone to getting hemmed in. These numbers all jive with the eye test as well. Leafs fans have ragged on Bozak and JVR’s lack of defensive acumen for years.

Tavares	96
Ennis	89
Nylander	80
Matthews	67
Kadri	66
Marner	62
Jooris	57
Brown	52
Hyman	51
Moore	42
Kapanen	39
Marleau	25
Bozak	25
Plek	21
JVR	19
Komarov	18
Martin	18

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Conversely, the players we’ve brought in are excellent at exiting the Leafs zone with the puck. The stress relief for our defensemen and goaltending this will provide will be huge. This should hopefully translate to less time in the defensive zone and fewer shots given up.

As for actual names on defence, there’s a lot of unknowns and room for growth. Rielly is still developing as a capable #1D, Dermott will also grow after his rookie season. A lot of Leafs fans have soured on Zaitsev but he was an NHL sophomore last year and dealt with many injuries and off ice issues, he should rebound with a healthy year. There’s also the Russian free agent we signed in Ozhiganov who’s replacing Polak. He’ll be a “rookie” himself but he should be able to adequately replace Polak. He’s younger and has been shown to throw punishing hits so he’ll also replace Polaks outgoing physicality.

This doesn’t even include the prospects on the right side, Liljegren obviously being the most known one. Carrick and Holl while not as big of names could win the bottom pairing spot and fill those minutes. Leafs also have most of their picks in the next few drafts, if the defence becomes a huge issue like so many speculate (or want) a trade is always on the table. Lest we forget your team (temporarily at least) fixed your defence with trades for Leddy and Boychuk.

The Leafs have their core locked up for years yet. They can afford to be patient and not make a potentially costly mistake like overpaying for a defenseman (Hall for Larsson) or not signing one of the games premier pivots because we have needs elsewhere.

 

[Sypher04]

Hainsey is a guy who has primarily played on the Right side in his career. He's kind of the exception.

If thats true its not so much in recent memory. He didn't especially in Carolina. He paired usually with Faulk. The Pens did use him on the right for a few months though.

 

[Buds17]

Yeah I'm aware. And Hainsey is a LHD playing as a RD. If the player is better I dont think their side should be a hang up.

That's absolutely fair, assuming the player is better. Hainsey does have more NHL experience than our other left D options that could be expected to switch to their off hand side though (Rielly, especially Dermott). Hainsey also isn't going to be the offensive catalyst on his pairing, so I wonder if that's another consideration, similar to a Hyman playing his off wing.

 

[therealkoho]

Borgman is a left and Polak is a right.
Left side will be: Rielly, Gardiner, Dermott, (??Rosman/Borgman/??Marincin)
Right side is Zaitsev, Hainsey,(???Carrick/???Ozhiganov/...Holl???/…)
I am sure hoping Oz can move the puck and Zaitsev plays well

i'm told that the OZ not only moves as well as Zaitsev but also has a better shot, and for bonus chips he's got some real nasty in his game

 

[Fogelhund]

i'm told that the OZ not only moves as well as Zaitsev but also has a better shot, and for bonus chips he's got some real nasty in his game

All of this is true.

Ozhiganov showed off his cannon at the KHL All-Star Game last season, winning the hardest shot competition. He’s not quite on Shea Weber’s level, but his blast was clocked at 159.47 kilometres per hour — or 99 miles per hour. Had he participated in the NHL’s hardest shot last season, Ozhiganov would only have been beaten by Weber and Patrik Laine.

At 6-foot-2, 210 pounds, Ozhiganov brings size to the blue line and a bit of an edge.
As a teenager in Russia’s junior MHL (more or less Russia’s equivalent to Canada’s CHL), Ozhiganov had two seasons where he piled up the penalty minutes. In 2009-10 and 2010-11, he totalled 167 and 129 PIMs to finish third and eighth, respectively, in the league. This was probably a reason why he was never picked at the NHL Draft. He’s reined in that part of his game somewhat, finishing with 61 penalty minutes in 50 KHL games last season and has just 10 in 19 this season, so credit to him for evolving as a player.
Still, Ozhiganov is not one to shy away from the rough stuff. Truculence, anyone?

Defensively, not as good as Zaitsev thought.... allegedly.

 

[glue]

The problem you, OP, and others have is that you relate defensive prowess to ONLY the teams defensemen, when the forwards are just as much responsible for helping keep the puck out of the back of our net.

Here’s an interesting chart originally posted by @biotk regarding possession and zone exits over the past two seasons. Notice how a lot of outgoing players were absolutely horrific at getting the puck out, meaning that the Leafs were hemmed in their own zone for longer and having to deal with longer cycles by the opposition. Christ looking at the names in red it seems our entire bottom 6 was prone to getting hemmed in. These numbers all jive with the eye test as well. Leafs fans have ragged on Bozak and JVR’s lack of defensive acumen for years.

Tavares	96
Ennis	89
Nylander	80
Matthews	67
Kadri	66
Marner	62
Jooris	57
Brown	52
Hyman	51
Moore	42
Kapanen	39
Marleau	25
Bozak	25
Plek	21
JVR	19
Komarov	18
Martin	18

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Conversely, the players we’ve brought in are excellent at exiting the Leafs zone with the puck. The stress relief for our defensemen and goaltending this will provide will be huge. This should hopefully translate to less time in the defensive zone and fewer shots given up.

As for actual names on defence, there’s a lot of unknowns and room for growth. Rielly is still developing as a capable #1D, Dermott will also grow after his rookie season. A lot of Leafs fans have soured on Zaitsev but he was an NHL sophomore last year and dealt with many injuries and off ice issues, he should rebound with a healthy year. There’s also the Russian free agent we signed in Ozhiganov who’s replacing Polak. He’ll be a “rookie” himself but he should be able to adequately replace Polak. He’s younger and has been shown to throw punishing hits so he’ll also replace Polaks outgoing physicality.

This doesn’t even include the prospects on the right side, Liljegren obviously being the most known one. Carrick and Holl while not as big of names could win the bottom pairing spot and fill those minutes. Leafs also have most of their picks in the next few drafts, if the defence becomes a huge issue like so many speculate (or want) a trade is always on the table. Lest we forget your team (temporarily at least) fixed your defence with trades for Leddy and Boychuk.

The Leafs have their core locked up for years yet. They can afford to be patient and not make a potentially costly mistake like overpaying for a defenseman (Hall for Larsson) or not signing one of the games premier pivots because we have needs elsewhere.

Real interesting chart there, I've always believed forwards of a team are extremely important in defending, so nice to see some statistical or quantitative example. Some interesting things there. Some of Babs favorite guys are actually pretty low on there like Hyman, Brown and Marleau. But that also lends itself to the fact that putting those 3 guys in 3 differents lines does probably give a lot better balance as obviously that stat alone doesn't give the full picture of what those guys provide. Surprised to see Kap that low, but obviously not a large sample size yet.

 

[Liminality]

Real interesting chart there, I've always believed forwards of a team are extremely important in defending, so nice to see some statistical or quantitative example. Some interesting things there. Some of Babs favorite guys are actually pretty low on there like Hyman, Brown and Marleau. But that also lends itself to the fact that putting those 3 guys in 3 differents lines does probably give a lot better balance as obviously that stat alone doesn't give the full picture of what those guys provide. Surprised to see Kap that low, but obviously not a large sample size yet.

I'm pretty sure those numbers are percentages. I don't think Hyman's and Brown's zone exits are that much of a problem at just above 50%, I am surprised at Marleau's though.

 

[Morbo]

What does "getting off the pot" look like for the Leafs? Fold the franchise?

probably committing to solving any defence issues internally, as opposed to trades or signings from outside the organization.

hell, they could be already washing their hands getting ready to walk out the door for all we know.

 

[Caroline Says ll]

I would like to see the Leafs continue to do exactly what they're already doing -- which is drafting and developing young players at all positions including defence.

The Leafs might already have all the defencemen they will need within their own system. The "**** or get off the pot" crowd can go to Hell while the Leafs patiently develop their own defencemen.

That's a silly expression anyways. It implies that Leafs management can't make up their minds, when all the evidence suggests they have already made a decision to develop from within. It's not the decision that the OP and many others would like, but I think they have made a decision not to go to the used-defenceman store and pony up for someone else's defenceman. I'm good with that.

Exactly.

Although I recognize the Leafs D is not perfect, is this whole issue not being far overblown? Certain members of the media such as Gareth Wheeler make it seem like there will be no winning in the playoffs without addressing the teams defence.

Maybe it is simplifying the issue but how is it that the Leafs let in less goals last year than Tampa, yet there is no talk about Tampa's defensive issues? They let in the 3rd least goals in the entire Eastern conference, clearly something was done right. You can say that it was caused by the teams total defensive or Anderson, but teams with better defenceman and better goaltending let in pretty much the same amount. Yet there is almost some insinuations that the Leafs d-corp is near the bottom of the league and incapable of in it's current state of going deep.

The crazy talk of trading one of your best wingers to fill this need is silly. The Leafs barring extreme occurrences will make the playoffs, and any sort of move to improve with a defenceman should be done in the new year and should involve picks and prospects, not key roster players.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

There are fewer right handed shooting players than left handers. So to have your best six Dman being split evenly for handiness may not be possible.
Look at the great LHD who played the right side....Harvey, Polite, Bourgue, probably a ton more. This RHD is more a social media issue than a NHL team issue.
If it means anything the Leafs have RHD prospects. Liljegren, Durzi, Raseman, Lingdren, along with Zaitsev and Ozhignkiov....gee in a few years might have too many RHD.

 

[Notsince67]

The problem you, OP, and others have is that you relate defensive prowess to ONLY the teams defensemen, when the forwards are just as much responsible for helping keep the puck out of the back of our net.

Here’s an interesting chart originally posted by @biotk regarding possession and zone exits over the past two seasons. Notice how a lot of outgoing players were absolutely horrific at getting the puck out, meaning that the Leafs were hemmed in their own zone for longer and having to deal with longer cycles by the opposition. Christ looking at the names in red it seems our entire bottom 6 was prone to getting hemmed in. These numbers all jive with the eye test as well. Leafs fans have ragged on Bozak and JVR’s lack of defensive acumen for years.

Tavares	96
Ennis	89
Nylander	80
Matthews	67
Kadri	66
Marner	62
Jooris	57
Brown	52
Hyman	51
Moore	42
Kapanen	39
Marleau	25
Bozak	25
Plek	21
JVR	19
Komarov	18
Martin	18

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Conversely, the players we’ve brought in are excellent at exiting the Leafs zone with the puck. The stress relief for our defensemen and goaltending this will provide will be huge. This should hopefully translate to less time in the defensive zone and fewer shots given up.

As for actual names on defence, there’s a lot of unknowns and room for growth. Rielly is still developing as a capable #1D, Dermott will also grow after his rookie season. A lot of Leafs fans have soured on Zaitsev but he was an NHL sophomore last year and dealt with many injuries and off ice issues, he should rebound with a healthy year. There’s also the Russian free agent we signed in Ozhiganov who’s replacing Polak. He’ll be a “rookie” himself but he should be able to adequately replace Polak. He’s younger and has been shown to throw punishing hits so he’ll also replace Polaks outgoing physicality.

This doesn’t even include the prospects on the right side, Liljegren obviously being the most known one. Carrick and Holl while not as big of names could win the bottom pairing spot and fill those minutes. Leafs also have most of their picks in the next few drafts, if the defence becomes a huge issue like so many speculate (or want) a trade is always on the table. Lest we forget your team (temporarily at least) fixed your defence with trades for Leddy and Boychuk.

The Leafs have their core locked up for years yet. They can afford to be patient and not make a potentially costly mistake like overpaying for a defenseman (Hall for Larsson) or not signing one of the games premier pivots because we have needs elsewhere.

I have been looking everywhere for complete zone exit information. If anyone knows where to get it, I would be very appreciative

 

[crump]

Dermott. Rielly.
Gardiner. Zaitsev
Hainsey. Ozhiganov/Carrick

Hopefully something like this for this season. I think Dermott is going to become a first pairing Dman this season. Our "why don't we ever draft a gem in the second round." response.

Gardiner RFA year...you just know he's going to make it hard to trade him at the deadline because we will want to keep him then. A trade for picks and prospects early in the season maybe. It would make sense to trade him early, but his value will be lower.

A bounce back season for Zaitsev and maybe we get lucky with Russia again With Ozhiganov.

A lot of "ifs" this season.

 

[Fogelhund]

Dermott. Rielly.
Gardiner. Zaitsev
Hainsey. Ozhiganov/Carrick

Hopefully something like this for this season. I think Dermott is going to become a first pairing Dman this season. Our "why don't we ever draft a gem in the second round." response.

Gardiner RFA year...you just know he's going to make it hard to trade him at the deadline because we will want to keep him then. A trade for picks and prospects early in the season maybe. It would make sense to trade him early, but his value will be lower.

A bounce back season for Zaitsev and maybe we get lucky with Russia again With Ozhiganov.

A lot of "ifs" this season.

I'm sure just an oversight... but UFA year.

 

[A1LeafNation]

What if Leafs top 4 going forward in 2019-20 is a combo of:

Rielly Zaitsev
Dermott Liljegren

What if Zaitsev plays 80 games and puts up 40 points and plays the PP and PK? What if Liljegren shines in camp and plays the last 40 games of the season with the Leafs ala Dermott?

Leafs bottom pair and depth in 2019-20 could be a combo of:

Borgman Carrick
Rosen Holl
Marincin Ozhiganov

I think we will know more closer to the deadline of what is needed. We are guessing right now.

 

[Notsince67]

Wondering how much Colin Miller would cost to acquire. This guy has the perfect skills that the leafs need with a low cap. Moves the puck really well, is 25, locked in for 4 more years and has a soo greyhound connection

 

[Fogelhund]

Wondering how much Colin Miller would cost to acquire. This guy has the perfect skills that the leafs need with a low cap. Moves the puck really well, is 25, locked in for 4 more years and has a soo greyhound connection

I don't think he's available, but he'd be a great addition. You've identified two of the best guys, to fit our group... sadly, I don't see either player being moved.

 

[Notsince67]

I don't think he's available, but he'd be a great addition. You've identified two of the best guys, to fit our group... sadly, I don't see either player being moved.

It depends what LV feels like their most pressing need is. They might covet some picks or prospects. I don't think the ask would be a lot

 

[ottomaddox]

The problem you, OP, and others have is that you relate defensive prowess to ONLY the teams defensemen, when the forwards are just as much responsible for helping keep the puck out of the back of our net.

Here’s an interesting chart originally posted by @biotk regarding possession and zone exits over the past two seasons. Notice how a lot of outgoing players were absolutely horrific at getting the puck out, meaning that the Leafs were hemmed in their own zone for longer and having to deal with longer cycles by the opposition. Christ looking at the names in red it seems our entire bottom 6 was prone to getting hemmed in. These numbers all jive with the eye test as well. Leafs fans have ragged on Bozak and JVR’s lack of defensive acumen for years.

Tavares	96
Ennis	89
Nylander	80
Matthews	67
Kadri	66
Marner	62
Jooris	57
Brown	52
Hyman	51
Moore	42
Kapanen	39
Marleau	25
Bozak	25
Plek	21
JVR	19
Komarov	18
Martin	18

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Conversely, the players we’ve brought in are excellent at exiting the Leafs zone with the puck. The stress relief for our defensemen and goaltending this will provide will be huge. This should hopefully translate to less time in the defensive zone and fewer shots given up.

As for actual names on defence, there’s a lot of unknowns and room for growth. Rielly is still developing as a capable #1D, Dermott will also grow after his rookie season. A lot of Leafs fans have soured on Zaitsev but he was an NHL sophomore last year and dealt with many injuries and off ice issues, he should rebound with a healthy year. There’s also the Russian free agent we signed in Ozhiganov who’s replacing Polak. He’ll be a “rookie” himself but he should be able to adequately replace Polak. He’s younger and has been shown to throw punishing hits so he’ll also replace Polaks outgoing physicality.

This doesn’t even include the prospects on the right side, Liljegren obviously being the most known one. Carrick and Holl while not as big of names could win the bottom pairing spot and fill those minutes. Leafs also have most of their picks in the next few drafts, if the defence becomes a huge issue like so many speculate (or want) a trade is always on the table. Lest we forget your team (temporarily at least) fixed your defence with trades for Leddy and Boychuk.

The Leafs have their core locked up for years yet. They can afford to be patient and not make a potentially costly mistake like overpaying for a defenseman (Hall for Larsson) or not signing one of the games premier pivots because we have needs elsewhere.

No.

Also don't count on Ennis to make the team.

The impression I'm getting from MIN fans is that his career is pretty much done. A healthy scratch in the regular season a couple of times as well as 1 playoff appearance doesn't bode well for him.

 

[A1LeafNation]

No.

Also don't count on Ennis to make the team.

The impression I'm getting from MIN fans is that his career is pretty much done. A healthy scratch in the regular season a couple of times as well as 1 playoff appearance doesn't bode well for him.

Agreed. Ennis is there to be the litmus test for guys like Johnsson, Lindholm, Grundstrom and Gauthier.

If Ennis makes the team over any of those guys, you better either up your game or time may be running out on your NHL career.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Say Carolina makes a Gardiner for Faulk deal, and our dcore right now was the following, would we be considered contenders?

Rielly Faulk
Dermott Zaitsev
Borgman Hainsey
Rosen Carrick

Call ups:
Marincin Ozhiganov
Holl Liljegren

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

No.

Also don't count on Ennis to make the team.

The impression I'm getting from MIN fans is that his career is pretty much done. A healthy scratch in the regular season a couple of times as well as 1 playoff appearance doesn't bode well for him.

I couldn’t care less about Ennis. The biggest thing to take away from that chart is how many horrible possession players are leaving the team.

Why are you in such a rush to make a move for a defenseman? Why not wait until the TDL before spending assets adding something that may not even be needed?

 

[ottomaddox]

I couldn’t care less about Ennis. The biggest thing to take away from that chart is how many horrible possession players are leaving the team.

Why are you in such a rush to make a move for a defenseman? Why not wait until the TDL before spending assets adding something that may not even be needed?

I'm not in a rush. I made this thread when TOR got beat out of the playoffs.

Agreed that it's not all on the defense. Our forwards have to be more responsible defensively. I just know that we have obvious warts (Hainsey playing every minute of every PK, and Gardiner's -5 meltdown/brainfarts/soft play). It's hard to say what we need to do to get over the hump, but it's not that dire.

 

[luvdahattymatty]

The thread cuts to the heart of what the team needs now. Give us a Niskanin and a Orpik. A couple guys who think defence first. Not concerned about goals and assists but who do all the little defensive details correct game in game out. What shows up on the gamesheet not important only team wins. Pittsburgh was a statistical outlier. I would not base my Cup strategy on a statistical outlier.

 

[TeamBester]

I'm pretty sure those numbers are percentages. I don't think Hyman's and Brown's zone exits are that much of a problem at just above 50%, I am surprised at Marleau's though.

When you're the one blowing the zone most of the time, (designed) probably effects the %.